[DTB] U/R Delver

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Originally Posted by theMonster

I'd like to ask a specific question about Harsh Mentor. Since the Shock effect will disincentivize people from using fetches and Deathrite activations, do y'all think Mentor is better suited for Stifle/Wasteland shells that want to punish people's mana development? Having the opponent finally cave and play into Stifle while also taking 2 seems decent. Plus Stifle/Wasteland (instead of Price) helps Mentor survive more things and chip away for more damage because they wouldn't necessarily have the lands to cast their removal. Granted this would be a very different-looking list than the Prowess versions, but I wanted to get thoughts on the idea.

Thanks!

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I would feel that you would have to play an aggressive shell around that to make the Harsh Mentor playable. Doing that in UR wouldn't be to hard evidently. You can play 4 Delver, 4 Swiftspear/Goblin Guide, X Mentor, and maybe a curve topper or two like Bedlam Reveler or True-Name Nemesis. I am unsure as to how Goblin Guide would work out, it would be a little awkward with your mana denial plan. I could see you wanting to play out the game to strangle their manabase early and capitalize with Harsh Mentor, but one thing from playing Stifle Grixis is 2 drops that don't do anything right away and Stifle is a little awkward.

They can play out their non-basics and get nuked by Price. Or they can fetch up basics and get shocked by Mentor. DRS can't stabilize. Mother can't stonewall. It's reach against Miracles. This is a completely MD card for the meta.

2x MD 2x SB

"everyone needs his fucking milion/playset" [A good year]

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

No can do.

The implication was that I asked for conversation about the new Mentor and what came immediately after was a spastic reaction to other rather unplayable spoiled cards, not meaningful in any way to this thread or the conversation requested lol.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

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Aah ok :smile: I do think that the only real interesting card spoiler for UR Delver is Harsh Mentor. As stated by TMWaP it isn't very hard to imagine a aggresive UR Delver-shell. Would it require a lot tinkering? Not really. Swap Stormchaser Mage, and TWrath if you play the card (I personally don't like the card) for a third PoP main. Maybe pack some, I forgot the name, 1cmc Misdirection in the sb?

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Originally Posted by TheManWithaPlan

I would feel that you would have to play an aggressive shell around that to make the Harsh Mentor playable. Doing that in UR wouldn't be to hard evidently. You can play 4 Delver, 4 Swiftspear/Goblin Guide, X Mentor, and maybe a curve topper or two like Bedlam Reveler or True-Name Nemesis. I am unsure as to how Goblin Guide would work out, it would be a little awkward with your mana denial plan. I could see you wanting to play out the game to strangle their manabase early and capitalize with Harsh Mentor, but one thing from playing Stifle Grixis is 2 drops that don't do anything right away and Stifle is a little awkward.

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Hmm, Guide + Wasteland/Stifle is definitely a non-bo, and Swiftspear + Stifle seems awkward, too. I'd assume one would play more proactive cards with Swiftspear, playing spells both before and in combat. Stifle doesn't jibe with that plan. I guess the burn-centric list with Price is the way to go then ... unless there's some other one-drop threat you could play besides those two. (I can't think of a viable one; Lavamancer feels too slow.)

Thanks for the response.

I'm actually a pretty big fan of Nivmagus Elemental here. It gets bigger every time they counter something. If they are about to win a counter-war, just exile all yours before the stack resolves. Makes stifle less dead later in the game, as you can target any trigger (even yours), eat the Stifle and allow the trigger to resolve.

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Nivmagus Elemental is certainly a cool card, but I think we don't need another one-drop. Besides, you want to go as fast as you can, and Nivmagus Elemental isn't fast. It makes you want to exile cards from the stack (best case scenario after a counter-war), and most of the time you just want to have your Burn-cards to resolve.

PoP to three, SCM replaced by Harsh Mentor, and perhaps one or two Caverns of Souls (main or sb, but that is really stretching it) to make my humans uncounterable (thus keeping counters in hand for protection). That's what I'm thinking about.

I should clarify. By building an aggressive deck around Harsh Mentor, I meant that we would have to build an aggressive deck, however slow it down from the existing UR Delver deck. Stifle and Wasteland lend themselves to that sort of strategy. If we were to run a Stife+Wasteland build of this deck, we want to build our decks like Canadian Threshold. The concept would be to ideally play a 1 drop on turn 1 then proceed to strangle the opponent's manabase, and then capitalize with Harsh Mentor. We need 8 1 drops and Swiftspear is not one of them, due to its lackluster performance in a void. That said Nivmagus Elemental sounds interesting. Too bad it doesn't fly.

Problematically Canadian is not putting up great results at the moment, mostly due to Shaman, but also Leovold and TNN are problematic. Choosing UR allows a rock solid mana base and is able to punish opponents for being greedy (PoP). If you drop PoP and Prowess for Wasteland, Stifle and Harsh Mentor do you create a better deck than RUG or Grixis? Please don't get me wrong I like the idea, but I just don't see it. UR doesn't offer the best removal for a long game (lacking StP and Fatal Push) but has a "combo" like playstyle as you can go with the burn route completely orthorgonoal to what your opponent is doing.
Jonathan Alexander tried to attack opponents mana base to a great extend playing stifle, Wasteland and Winter Orb MD (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/...eshold-primer/) and even he switched to a BUG shell now that you can play Shaman, Decay, Push and Leovold. I guess a UR control build would feature

4x Delver
2-3x Lavamancer
4x Harsh Mentor
0-2x Snapcaster
0-2x TNN

4x Daze
4x FoW
4x Stifle
0-1x Winter Orb

4x L.Bolt
2x Forked Bolt
0-2x Dismember

4x BS
4x Ponder

4x Wasteland
3-5x Basics
3-4x Volcanic
7-8x Fetches

There is nothing innovative to that list and I don't see it superior to the previous build, where you just go PoP, Firebalst, swing for 10-14 damage a turn.

All valid points, BigBopper. So given the current UR Prowess shell, do you think Harsh Mentor has a place in its 75? Is it better than Stormchaser Mage? Doesn't die to Pyroblast, but it can't be pitched to Force; no evasion; hates on lots of the format (if it gets to survive). I see lots of situations where the opponent fetches to Decay it, so you dealt 2 and got a card out of their hand. Worth it? The upside is awesome, of course, but how often do they not just have untapped mana and Bolt/Swords/Push? Guess we just gotta test it and find out(?).

Considering there'd potentially be no Stormchaser, I'd imagine you could cut some number of Probes to play either more burn or more stack interaction like Spell Pierce.

I don't see Harsh Mentor as a contribution to the MD. It's main purpose seems to fight Miracles. In my board I already play 1 Pithing Needle and 1 Winter Orb to fight them and they both outclass Mentor as whey are harder to remove and easier to cast. I also play 3 Eidolon in the side to fight Storm and other decks like Elves and D&T. RR can be hard to cast but Harsh Mentor essentially doesn't do the same as Eidolon. Resolving Eidolon against any of these decks is either game over or they need to dig for answers where you contribute damage. Mentor doesn't do a thing. I guess Mentor would compete with Young Pyromancer the most for slots and what they do in terms of damage and we don't play YP.

I will certainly test him but I guess he might end up staying at home unless there is some sort of awesome combo I haven't seen yet.

Eidolon against DnT, interesting. I'd think that with all the Aether Vial tricks, they wouldn't have to cast that many spells. Plus getting RR consistently against Wasteland and Port seems tough. I see Mentor as better than Eidolon against DnT because every Port, Wasteland, Karakas, Aether Vial, Mom, Stoneforge, and equipment activation pings for 2.

I agree. Basically FoW and to a major extend Daze are dead draws against D&T I try to board in more creature to fight their plan (especially if they play around Dazr and you boarded it out). Mentor is definetly better than Eidolon in this MU but I'm not sure that makes him worth including, unless it turn that MU around entirely. I gotta see.

I am new to the deck and have only been playing online on Cockatrice for about a week. I am loving the current configuration of the deck and am on the 2 PoP, 1 Fireblast, 3 SCM, 1 TNN, 1 Lavamancer type build. I did have one question that perhaps you all could answer regarding the sideboard. I get all the 1 ofs and 2 ofs since lot of them are similar in their use, can be useful against multiple decks, and can be found with Brainstorm and Ponder. However, why do we run only 2 Smash to Smithereens? Chalice on 1 is devastating and Smash is a nice clean answer if I don't have Daze/FoW. Is it because if they don't have Chalice Smash can sit dead? Has anyone had experience or tested 3? I am inclined not to do so since no lists seem to, just curious on the thought behind the SB.

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Originally Posted by kamikaze360

I am new to the deck and have only been playing online on Cockatrice for about a week. I am loving the current configuration of the deck and am on the 2 PoP, 1 Fireblast, 3 SCM, 1 TNN, 1 Lavamancer type build. I did have one question that perhaps you all could answer regarding the sideboard. I get all the 1 ofs and 2 ofs since lot of them are similar in their use, can be useful against multiple decks, and can be found with Brainstorm and Ponder. However, why do we run only 2 Smash to Smithereens? Chalice on 1 is devastating and Smash is a nice clean answer if I don't have Daze/FoW. Is it because if they don't have Chalice Smash can sit dead? Has anyone had experience or tested 3? I am inclined not to do so since no lists seem to, just curious on the thought behind the SB.

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We only ever run 2 Smash to Smithereens in our deck because we have 12 cantrips to find them. Smash to Smithereens is also a very narrow card and drawing them when you don't need them can be a bit of a liability. Another reason why only 2 Smash is sideboard space. Legacy is a very diverse format and you should have ways to deal with an array of different decks, thus that sideboard space is quite valuable.

guys, what are you think about engima drake in u/r shell ? I mean, he dodges lightning bolt, and he can hit so hard it't not even funny :/

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Originally Posted by TheManWithaPlan

We only ever run 2 Smash to Smithereens in our deck because we have 12 cantrips to find them. Smash to Smithereens is also a very narrow card and drawing them when you don't need them can be a bit of a liability. Another reason why only 2 Smash is sideboard space. Legacy is a very diverse format and you should have ways to deal with an array of different decks, thus that sideboard space is quite valuable.

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Thanks, that makes tons of sense!!!

I have another question... and I'm sure its a common one. What do people do against Miracles? I have read the whole forum discussion and it seems its a tough matchup but some people have had success just bum rushing the Miracles player. What is the general consensus and sideboard plan? I have tested against a handful of times and it seems........ not good.

@wizard_of_gore: enigma drake is not a good card. If you care for a creature to stick and dodge removal play TNN. If you want to deal more damage play an additional PoP.

@kamikaze360: versible SB cards are Pithing Needle (vs. Miracles naming top), Winter Orb, Sulfuric Vortex and now Harsh Mentor. I guess Pyroblast and REB do come in mind but they are just defenses against Counterbalance and Jace, while not doing anything. Bedlam Reveler is quite good if you play one, as they cannot counter it with counterbalance, only counterspell if available and terminus gives us another chance to replay it and draw 3 cards.

@all: What is the thought on playing Barbarian Ring? I know Burn does it and to be honest I picked the idea up in the Canadian threat. We easily get threshold, it's 2 almost uncounterable damage (also on DRS) and we seriously don't count our life total (playing 4 probes). I'll give it a try for the 9th fetch.

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Originally Posted by TheManWithaPlan

Working on updating the primer to add Sneak&Show and Grixis Delver to the matchups section as well as some version of BUG. What version of BUG would you guys like to see? Ried Duke BUG, or BUG Delver? Also adding Thunderous Wrath to the primer.

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I've added some changes to the primer, courtesy to TMWAP :smile:

I like the matchup descriptions in the primer! Nice work guys :).

Speaking of UR's matchups, what is everyone's opinion on the Sneak and Show matchup? There's a discussion erupting in the Show and Tell FB group - it seems like in MA pateuglow and Jerry think it's heavily in favor of UR Delver, whereas in Madison John and I think it's 80/20 in favor of Sneak. We can't both be right :).

Here's how I board for Sneak and Show:

In:
+1 Flusterstorm
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Sulfuric Vortex (on the play)

Out:
-1 Grim Lavamancer
-2 Price of Progress
-1 Forked Bolt (on the play)

My experience is that I can usually count on finding one Force of Will, but it's not enough to get the job done. My opponent is always able to either Force back on-curve, or wait an extra turn and Pierce/Flusterstorm. The few times I win this matchup, it's when I'm on the play and can put together a turn-4 kill. Is the issue that I'm not reaching deep enough in the board to cards like Pithing Needle (which I don't run)? Is running Thunderous Wrath and pushing hard for a turn-3 kill the way to go?

This matchup is still a big puzzle to me - I'm at 2-6 lifetime record against Show and Tell, one of the few matchups that's negative for me in the past half year or so.

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Originally Posted by paradigm72

I like the matchup descriptions in the primer! Nice work guys :).

Speaking of UR's matchups, what is everyone's opinion on the Sneak and Show matchup? There's a discussion erupting in the Show and Tell FB group - it seems like in MA pateuglow and Jerry think it's heavily in favor of UR Delver, whereas in Madison John and I think it's 80/20 in favor of Sneak. We can't both be right :).

Here's how I board for Sneak and Show:

In:
+1 Flusterstorm
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Sulfuric Vortex (on the play)

Out:
-1 Grim Lavamancer
-2 Price of Progress
-1 Forked Bolt (on the play)

My experience is that I can usually count on finding one Force of Will, but it's not enough to get the job done. My opponent is always able to either Force back on-curve, or wait an extra turn and Pierce/Flusterstorm. The few times I win this matchup, it's when I'm on the play and can put together a turn-4 kill. Is the issue that I'm not reaching deep enough in the board to cards like Pithing Needle (which I don't run)? Is running Thunderous Wrath and pushing hard for a turn-3 kill the way to go?

This matchup is still a big puzzle to me - I'm at 2-6 lifetime record against Show and Tell, one of the few matchups that's negative for me in the past half year or so.

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Would be a bit easier if you could post your sideboard.
I always bring in Force #4, Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce and 2 Pyroblast. If i'm not running a Clique main, i would bring in that card too.

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Originally Posted by paradigm72

I like the matchup descriptions in the primer! Nice work guys :).

Speaking of UR's matchups, what is everyone's opinion on the Sneak and Show matchup? There's a discussion erupting in the Show and Tell FB group - it seems like in MA pateuglow and Jerry think it's heavily in favor of UR Delver, whereas in Madison John and I think it's 80/20 in favor of Sneak. We can't both be right :).

Here's how I board for Sneak and Show:

In:
+1 Flusterstorm
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Sulfuric Vortex (on the play)

Out:
-1 Grim Lavamancer
-2 Price of Progress
-1 Forked Bolt (on the play)

My experience is that I can usually count on finding one Force of Will, but it's not enough to get the job done. My opponent is always able to either Force back on-curve, or wait an extra turn and Pierce/Flusterstorm. The few times I win this matchup, it's when I'm on the play and can put together a turn-4 kill. Is the issue that I'm not reaching deep enough in the board to cards like Pithing Needle (which I don't run)? Is running Thunderous Wrath and pushing hard for a turn-3 kill the way to go?

This matchup is still a big puzzle to me - I'm at 2-6 lifetime record against Show and Tell, one of the few matchups that's negative for me in the past half year or so.

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My experience is that vs SnS we are slightly unfavoured G1 but fairly well favoured post-board.

For me, I board in the 4th FoW, flusterstorm and pyroblast, pithing needles (I run 2) and 2 sulfuric vortex and board out bedlam reveller, PoP, stormchasers and usually a chain lightning. You've usually got a bit more time vs this matchup compared to say BR Reanimator so the key is have a counterspell ready and just get some efficient beats on the board early. Git Probes are invaluable to get you hand intelligence so you know what to name with pithing needle and what to save your countermagic for. Most importantly, remember that you can block Grisel with a flipped delver and then bolt it before damage to prevent the life gain. If they ever gain life from him you've basically lost your chance to win so you need to make sure you have the cards in hand to deal with a resolved Grisel on the board.

Hello first post here, thanks for the primer!

I decided to switch to Legacy after Gitaxian Probe was banned in modern and I couldn't play UR Delver there anymore.

I will be attending my first large Legacy tournament at the end if the month and could use some advice on my deck :

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Stormchaser Mage
1 Bedlam Reveler
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Price of Progress
4 Ponder
4 Chain Lightning
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Fireblast

Sideboard :
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Null Rod
1 Dismember
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Rough // Tumble
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grim Lavamancer

I've really not been a fan of Bedlam Reveler in testing compared to True-Name Nemesis but I don't want to kill my own creatures with Rough//Tumble. Should I cut the Grim Lavamancer and add either another price of progress or Pyroblast / Flusterstorm? Do I really need Sulfur Elemental with Rough in the board, it seems good against thalia but that's about it? I really want to keep Jitte as it is my favourite card.

Also any advice when playing the deck IRL?

Much obliged

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias1989

Hello first post here, thanks for the primer!

I decided to switch to Legacy after Gitaxian Probe was banned in modern and I couldn't play UR Delver there anymore.

I will be attending my first large Legacy tournament at the end if the month and could use some advice on my deck :

List

I've really not been a fan of Bedlam Reveler in testing compared to True-Name Nemesis but I don't want to kill my own creatures with Rough//Tumble. Should I cut the Grim Lavamancer and add either another price of progress or Pyroblast / Flusterstorm? Do I really need Sulfur Elemental with Rough in the board, it seems good against thalia but that's about it? I really want to keep Jitte as it is my favourite card.

Also any advice when playing the deck IRL?

Much obliged

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Welcome the the forum and to Legacy!

As for your list, it looks pretty solid. I am not generally a fan of Jitte in Delver decks in general due to it being very mana heavy and you not having an abundance of creatures to equip it to. If your local meta is stuffed with Sulfur Elemental and Monastery Mentor, then I would like Sulfur Elemental, otherwise it doesn't do anything and Clique would probably be a better option. I recommend keeping Grim Lavamancer, due to it just being able to win games all on its own. If you prefer to play True-Name Nemesis over Bedlam Reveler, I would opt to play Sudden Demise over Rough/Tumble.

Best of luck in the event!

I second TMWAP's suggestion of Grim Lavamancer and True-Name Nemesis being strong inclusions. To me, they're worth dropping Rough // Tumble which would otherwise be great. In its place, I love playing a 1x Pyrokinesis in the board as my sweeper - that card has bailed me out of so many situations. Being free is excellent in tempo matchups like Delver and D+T, where you don't have extra mana to spend, and you are often boarding Force of Will out anyway so giving up a card is acceptable. It's pretty common for it to be an even 2-for-2 trade, but a huge tempo gain because you spent zero mana and they spent at least two.

I think I've finally turned a corner on understanding the Delver mirror over the past few months. Previously I struggled a lot with it, but lately I'm hitting 65% win rate against a mix of Grixis and BUG, mostly by being more patient and trying to one-for-one them while chipping in damage. I'm starting to play this matchup the opposite of the way I play Miracles (where I blitz all out), and instead try to trade resources carefully and not go down cards or get caught by Daze. It seems like our basic lands and extra removal allow us to stay in the game for a surprisingly long time. Goyf/Angler are obviously the big risk to that plan, but even when they land we have 8+ threats that can go over them and race. Price of Progress is usually good for 4 damage even against Wasteland/Daze tricks, and that can be enough to finish them off.

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias1989

I've really not been a fan of Bedlam Reveler in testing compared to True-Name Nemesis but I don't want to kill my own creatures with Rough//Tumble. Should I cut the Grim Lavamancer and add either another price of progress or Pyroblast / Flusterstorm? Do I really need Sulfur Elemental with Rough in the board, it seems good against thalia but that's about it? I really want to keep Jitte as it is my favourite card.

Also any advice when playing the deck IRL?

Much obliged

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I would drop Jitte, it is far too slow and hard to use in our deck effectively. A second sulfuric vortex is a must imo. On the play especially, it is really strong against a wide range of decks and often just pushes our damage over the edge to win the game and it puts a clock on grindy control decks.

Depends on your meta but I have dropped Grafdiggers because it's just too narrow and graveyard decks aren't all that common atm except for B/R and you have better tools against that deck anyway. Winter orb, null rod and pithing are all great options that hit miracles and a number of other decks.

As for playing, my main advice would be just don't waste your brainstorms and remember FoW is really bad in this deck (but essential for combo) and should be got rid of as soon as you know you don't absolutely need it.

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Originally Posted by paradigm72

I second TMWAP's suggestion of Grim Lavamancer and True-Name Nemesis being strong inclusions. To me, they're worth dropping Rough // Tumble which would otherwise be great. In its place, I love playing a 1x Pyrokinesis in the board as my sweeper - that card has bailed me out of so many situations. Being free is excellent in tempo matchups like Delver and D+T, where you don't have extra mana to spend, and you are often boarding Force of Will out anyway so giving up a card is acceptable. It's pretty common for it to be an even 2-for-2 trade, but a huge tempo gain because you spent zero mana and they spent at least two.

I think I've finally turned a corner on understanding the Delver mirror over the past few months. Previously I struggled a lot with it, but lately I'm hitting 65% win rate against a mix of Grixis and BUG, mostly by being more patient and trying to one-for-one them while chipping in damage. I'm starting to play this matchup the opposite of the way I play Miracles (where I blitz all out), and instead try to trade resources carefully and not go down cards or get caught by Daze. It seems like our basic lands and extra removal allow us to stay in the game for a surprisingly long time. Goyf/Angler are obviously the big risk to that plan, but even when they land we have 8+ threats that can go over them and race. Price of Progress is usually good for 4 damage even against Wasteland/Daze tricks, and that can be enough to finish them off.

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Yeah I have been thinking of pyrokinesis as an option. I have sulfur elemental atm but I seem to never actually end up playing vs D&T. Pyrokinesis has more versatility which is good.

As for delver mirror, I have always felt favoured for those games, we are just faster usually and other delvers can't keep up with the damage we lay down. Main thing is just to mulligan right. Having too many lands in these matchups is really bad as we need to just be throwing damage down constantly to race them.

So, I am having tooons of trouble with all this BUG midrange nonsense. They have basics to fetch to play around PoP (our supposed trump card) and removal for days with Fatal Push, Decay, Dismember, Strix, Snapcaster, etc. Not to mention Tarmogoyf coming down to clean up the mess. Anyone else having similar experiences? What to do?

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Originally Posted by kamikaze360

So, I am having tooons of trouble with all this BUG midrange nonsense. They have basics to fetch to play around PoP (our supposed trump card) and removal for days with Fatal Push, Decay, Dismember, Strix, Snapcaster, etc. Not to mention Tarmogoyf coming down to clean up the mess. Anyone else having similar experiences? What to do?

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More aggression, more burn, less blue cards. The list in my sig for R/u Sligh crushes all of this BUG midrange nonsense... maybe take some ideas from that. Guide, Rift Bolt, Forked Bolt, etc.

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Originally Posted by kamikaze360

So, I am having tooons of trouble with all this BUG midrange nonsense. They have basics to fetch to play around PoP (our supposed trump card) and removal for days with Fatal Push, Decay, Dismember, Strix, Snapcaster, etc. Not to mention Tarmogoyf coming down to clean up the mess. Anyone else having similar experiences? What to do?

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I can second Hanni.
Goblin Guide makes them sweat and Forked Bolt is a great addition to the main.

Now that the meta has shifted to more midrage decks, UR should play out its advantages even more. I cannot see a reason not running 12 cc1 drops in this deck. You don't want to Ponder on T1 or make fetch>go-moves. This deck
needs to pressure the opponent as early as t1 and that makes it the best Delverdeck/aggro for me nowadays.

Hi guys, just went 5-0 with this pile on modo. Nothing new to say except I wont be dropping Fows to just three copies main deck any time soon. I know it´s bad in this deck but still it gives us % against the field when glass cannon decks go all in in game 1. It´s also nice to have back up for your Price when you know your going to win. Here is the deck I played:

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
4 Delver
4 Swiftspear
3 Stormchaser
1 Clique
1 Reveler
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Probe
4 Fow
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
1 Fireblast

Sideboard:

2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Surgical Extracrtion
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Flusterstorm
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Pyroblast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Pyrokinesis

Matc ups were:

2-1 vs Belcher
2-0 vs 4c control
2-0 vs Elves
2-1 vs Br reanimator
2-0 vs 12 post

Keep up the good work here!

@Stuuch: nice job! I dunno how the magic online meta is but I never like to see FoW in preboard games against unknown opponents. But I guess we don't have to argue about 1 card being shifted between MD and SB.
Tryed out Thunderous Wrath and although it's a nice effect I'm not sold on the card at all. I remember when it first came out and people were hyped about it Andrew Schneider, who had a lot success with this deck at the time wrote this article: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...In-Legacy.html. I think his statement concerning the card is still valid. That being said I wonder if Snapcaster is worth including again. You mainly wanna flashback Bolt or PoP but also a Flusterstorm, Smash to Smithereens or Pyroblast postboard don't seem bad. I've seen lists that trade him for revealer, although he's much worse against Miracles. Thoughts?

Been experimenting a bit with Harsh Mentor on cockatrice and so far it seems good. I am running two main in place of two goblin guides with a third in the side (so my creature lineup is 4 delver, 4 swiftspear, 2 stormchaser, 2 mentor and 1 bedlam). It definitely is a top target for removal but when they don't have that removal or they direct it straight at your t1 swiftspear/delver, then he really does some work. Even when he's only hitting fetches it racks up the damage rather fast as for many decks that means taking 3 damage just to get 1 mana source. He seems to be getting viewed by opponents as being something they have to deal with asap, which often sees them play FoW or other annoying countermagic which honestly I am fine with as it means they get card disadvantage from force and don't have that counter ready for something more dangerous like price. So, seems good so far but will need to play him more to really see how much difference he can make as yet to try vs D&T, metalworker, dark depths and other decks that will be heavily taxed by him.

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Originally Posted by Smuggo

I would drop Jitte, it is far too slow and hard to use in our deck effectively. A second sulfuric vortex is a must imo. On the play especially, it is really strong against a wide range of decks and often just pushes our damage over the edge to win the game and it puts a clock on grindy control decks.

Depends on your meta but I have dropped Grafdiggers because it's just too narrow and graveyard decks aren't all that common atm except for B/R and you have better tools against that deck anyway.

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Thanks everyone for your feedback!

I'll drop Jitte-chan in favour of Grim Lavamancer, he usually kills something when drawn whereas Jitte has a herd time getting equipped. Pyrokinesis is a nice alternative to Rough//Tumble and it can deal 4 close out the game, was thinking about Thunderous Wrath but this seems better.

3 Surgical Extraction is what I started with so I'm fine going back to that.

1 True-Name Nemesis or 2?

Winter orb didn't seem to do all that much in testing but it is clearly a strong card, as is Pithing Needle, but the question is what do I cut for them?

Thanks again!

Mainboard :
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Stormchaser Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Price of Progress
4 Ponder
4 Chain Lightning
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Fireblast

Sideboard :
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Null Rod
1 Dismember
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Pyrokinesis
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Grim Lavamancer

I would say cut a dismember for a pithing needle and otherwise your side seems good. The life cost of using dismember is too high imo. Obviously it is always dependent on your local meta though so just play in local tournaments and read about them as much as you can and adjust the side accordingly. I think 3x surgical is a bit much personally and you could go for a second needle or something else in its place.

@Ozimandias1989:
Please keep in mind Pyrokinesis can only hit creatures and not players.

@Smuggo:
Against which decks have you tested Mentor?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jonny Tempel

@Ozimandias1989:
Please keep in mind Pyrokinesis can only hit creatures and not players.

@Smuggo:
Against which decks have you tested Mentor?

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Vs BUG delver, 4c delver, miracles, merfolk and loam where I've actually seen one and cast it. Won them all except the miracles match. Have been a load of others where it was in the deck but I just never saw it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jonny Tempel

@Ozimandias1989:
Please keep in mind Pyrokinesis can only hit creatures and not players

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Oh! Okay then.

@Smuggo
Can Dismember really be cut? I thought it was a must have against Tarmogoyf?

If I had to choose between Pithing Needle and Winter Orb what would you recommend?

I have also built up a test list running Harsh Mentor and Soul-Scar Mage.
Even though I would need more games under my belt with these guys, I would totally see a case for each :
Soul-Scar needs us to switch some cards (Chain <> Forked Bolt or maybe even running Electrickery MD again -like back in the days of YPyro/DTT) but gave some unexpected situations which made me think twice about it (i.e. SSMage on the field, opponent transforms DarkDepth > MaritLage, I Bolt Marit to make sure it is not lethal >>> I was able to stale the game for a while, giving me more chance to find an answer to win the game).

Harsh Mentor also hits the opponent using Maze of Ith, Wasteland, A.Vial, when Equipping, Griselbrand, RishPort... I mean there is a lot of cases in which the card can justify its spot.
But again, I think to make full use of it, the list may need to be more "control" than "burn" imho.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias1989

Oh! Okay then.

@Smuggo
Can Dismember really be cut? I thought it was a must have against Tarmogoyf?

If I had to choose between Pithing Needle and Winter Orb what would you recommend?

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Again, highly meta-dependent but I have found that since fatal push came about I am seeing less Goyfs on the table than before and, in any event, you should probably just ignore goyf and go over it.

At the moment I run 2 needle and a winter orb and no null rod. Null rod is excellent of course but needle has wider application against more decks. Winter orb is narrower and primarily intended to disrupt miracles but can also be used against other mana-hungry decks.