Don't have slack but I could sign up for that
heey its jdmdave from depths
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Don't have slack but I could sign up for that
heey its jdmdave from depths
Hey, I liked how the deck works and I've been twitching it also online to play something different, I didn't keep track of all of the discussion, but I'll like to put some of my thoughts here.
I really really like the power of Gitaxian Probe, it gives us free spells and lets us be prepared to face certain cards, I prefer Probe over Magma Jet. Another thing over testing, not sure if you already discussed this, reforge the Soul is great, but its drawback giving 7 new cards to the opponent is just so brutal, I have switched more to Act on Impulse, because it feels more resilient on combo turn, so for my opinion its if you do use Reforge the Soul you kind of need the defense grid, reforge + no defense grid is just going to be very hard to beat FoW and too unreliable. I'm keeping 1 on the SB because I can wish for it.
I was actually going a very low count of lands, 14, that kind of backed up by both Manamorphose and Probe, since I was playing more activelly those spells kind of like cantripping, but I agree that might be too low, even though I was playing a more aggressive list to combo off T2.
I'll update my list after some tests and post it here so you guys can take a look at what I have come up with, my biggest concern now is fighting FoW/hate cards, Defense Grid is a way, but I'll try some other things to compensate our lack of hand discard
I think it's worth reading through the thread. Happy to hear your results with the deck and the list used to get there.
I've been having trouble playing vs miracles. Their stack of counterspells postboard with the inclusion of daze these days really makes it hard to go off. Some even have Hydroblast.
Defense grid is probably our best answer to this tho
That, aggressive play and redundancy... which most lists I've seen on this threat have :) I have less issues against blue decks than other Storm variants.Quote:
Originally Posted by solnox
I've had strong GP results with depths, but I still think the deck lacks the level of "play" to keep someone interested in the format. I've always had a soft spot for storm, but can't afford the LEDs/Seas, so this has piqued my interest.Quote:
Originally Posted by solnox
it's not 100% certain that LED-less builds are correct. i prefer them currently, but vieko has almost exclusively been testing builds with the LED's for quite some time.
in a deck that is so heavy on act on impulse and past in flames it could be correct, but i like hitting more business spells than mana sources. (i think he's more or less running more maindeck mountains and less sol lands. then he's not running the 4 slots where i currently have desperate ritual and simian spirit guide, and running 4 LED there).
My personal opinion is that if you are going to use LED then there is already 2 decks designed to use them better (ANT, TES.) Both of those decks pair it with Infernal Tutor for incredibly consistent kills. My thought is that with the mana reducers (Medallions) and Seething Song this deck has mana that is just as, if not more, explosive and can lead to broken turns with Past in Flames and Hazoret's Undying Fury.
Just my $0.02.
i'm going to try a few different things.
i currently like the magma jets and still need to test, but am also going to think about those last two slots and try
1 magma jet, 1 chandra torch of defiance.
or
2 hazoret's undying fury
in addition to that i'm also going to test 3 city of traitors and 2 ancient tomb instead of the other way around to see if the life loss matters enough.
Has anyone tried playing Overmaster? Maybe it's unnecessary, but I love the idea of it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I literally just bought 4 of these yesterday to try them out. I'm having problems finding space though.Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnza
Tried it, but when I tried it the list was a bit different. Check the earlier posts in the thread.
Hey everyone, just bought into the deck on Monday in a fit of excitement, and took it to Legacy Tuesday at my local store, which had about 30 people, generally a fairly solid competitive scene.
I didn't face a single blue deck, which was obviously nice.
Round 1 vs Maverick, I turned 2 or 3 him both games. His only pieces of interaction with thought seizes and pithing needle, as well as wasteland. He never found a Thalia.
1-0
Round 2 vs fuckstorm.dec - basically Death and Taxes running 4 Thalia, 4 Vryn Highmare, and 4 Chrome Mox to accelerate out these dudes, all maindeck, with extra Thorn of Amethyst in the side... wtf! Anyways, he stomped me. When your spells cost 2 or 3 more, its a bad time.
1-1
Round 3 vs regular Death & Taxes - he only every found a single Thalia but I found a second reduction effect. There was also an opportunity for him to vial in a flickerwisp and displace one of my ruby's, but by the time he committed to that, it was too late.
2-1
Round 4 vs Goblins (paired up! the goblins guy never goes 3-0 or 4-0! Good for him) unfortunately for goblins guy, he had absolutely 0 chance here and I turn 3'd and then turn 2'd him quickly enough.
3-1
Here was the list I ran:
Hazoret Storm
Lands (14)
4x Ancient Tomb
10x Mountain
Enablers (19)
4 Burning Wish
3 Act on Impulse
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
3 Reforge the Soul
3 Past in Flames
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Empty the Warrens
Storm (27)
4 Ruby Medallion
3 Helm of Awakening
4 Lotus Petal
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Rite of Flame
3 Desperate Ritual
Sideboard (15)
3x Pyroblast
2x Sulfur Elemental
1x Pyroclasm
1x Hazoret's Undying Fury
1x Reforge the Soul
1x Past in Flames
1x Ignite Memories
1x Grapeshot
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Tendrills of Agony
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Act on Impulse
thanks for the quick report.
wondering if you can expand a little bit.
i notice 10 mountain and 4 tomb. how often were you stuck not finding a land, especially a red mana source?
how many games did you just drop 8+ goblins and run them over without a full combo?
any other opinions/thoughts? if you wanna chat there's a slack for it, just msg me with your email and i'll add ya.
welcome to the club.
Yeah I was gonna expand on my thoughts after the first day, but got pulled into a work meeting, as you do.
First, yes there were some awkward no red mana hands, and I'm thinking of going up to 15 lands, with 11 Mountains.
As for the goblins, I actually never did that, even though I should have at least once (double petal, rite, land, goblins). If I'm being honest, because it was my first time playing the deck, I always wanted to do the cool, risky line, and go for it. I think with more experience, I'll be making more groups of 8-12 goblins.
Other thoughts:
I didn't put much work into the sideboard, it was haphazardly thrown together. The two Sulfur Elementals seem essential, and I was happy to have them. I didn't have to board in the Pyroblasts, so I couldn't really test if they are what i want vs Force of Will decks. I was also considering Hope of Ghirapur as red-friendly Xanthid Swarm. Worth trying.
I may also have too many Wish targets, was being too cute. Open to ideas. Blood Moon and Chandra is also a transformational consideration which seems sweet!
I think thats it for now? What do you think.
sorry for the waiting xD
someone ask me about Commune with Lava: probably is always better Act, but i prefer it for some interaction in EoT and try to combo off in mine turn. Isn't very good with Defense Grid, but can be good.
Maybe, a lot of Helms? they are good against no counterspells, but against them? i think i can cut the grids in my list for them, but i'm not sure. Someone play them?
Someone play Mana Flare? can be good for me, because give a tons of mana at t2-3; but in combo mode isn't very good.
also Gauntlet of Might
Hey there!
Longtime lurker and Legacy enthusast, compelled at long last to come out of the forum closet by this deck. Took it to a 4-0 finish at a local monthly Legacy event, and loved every minute.
List used was a variant on the OP, relisted below for convenience, plus my warstories!
To anyone looking into this deck and thinking "Why not just play ANT, TES, or any other good Storm", I'll say the one-word answer is "inevitability". This deck is resilient. Like, with a capital "-esilient"!
SI and TES really need to start asking themselves the big questions in life about conceding if the game goes on longer than their fourth turn, or if you pull the trigger too early and fizzle, you're shafted.
This is not the case with Hazoret the Undead Furry (petition for archetype name?); which has a stunning ability to pull back from misfires, and isn't as FoW-weak as you might think; we simply have too many must-counter nukes. Hazoret's one thing, but Reforge the Soul, Burning Wish, Act on Impulse too...
The Sol Land inclusion really helps us out when fighting through Daze, too. Give it a try if you're reading this and on the fence about sleeving the deck up.
Anyway, my list:
The Kill-Con:
3x Empty the Warrens
4x Burning Wish
The Storm Engine:
3x Hazoret's Undying Fury
3x Past in Flames
2x Reforge the Soul
2x Act on Impulse
Gas, Gas, Gas:
4x Helm of Awakening
4x Ruby Medallion
4x Manamorphose
4x Seething Song
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Rite of Flame
4x Lotus Petal
1x Desperate Ritual
Lands:
10x Mountain
4x Ancient Tomb
Wishboard/Sideboard:
1x Empty the Warrens (Wish)
1x Hazoret's Undying Fury (Wish)
1x Grapeshot (Wish)
1x Shattering Spree (Wish)
1x Reforge the Soul (Wish)
1x Mizzix's Mastery (Wish)
1x Past in Flames (Wish)
1x Goblin War Strike (Wish)
2x Cave-In (Wish)
3x Relic of Progenitus (Side)
2x Red Elemental Blast (Side)
The Glasgow (Scotland) Legacy scene is pretty strong, with a wide variety of archetypes, strong players, and decent event size. Event overview!
Round 1 - vs. Burning Wish Belcher
G1: I lost the toss, and dried up a little inside when my opponent Land Grants, pitches Harambe -> Ritual, Ritual, Belcher.
Fortunately, the chain stopped there, and on my turn 1 I pulled off a Burning Wish for Shattering Spree. A long war of attrition ensued, and I was aware that both Helm effects and Draw 7s would probably benefit the Belcher more. Both sides launched off multiple Warrens for 10 or so Goblins, but the virtual card draw on Hazoret and AoImp saved the day. Never known a Belcher game go to 15+ turns and they still had a chance.
G2: Neither of us sideboard. He Warrens for 8 Gobbos @ T1 on a mulligan to 5, I take the 8 from their first swing, then go off for a turn 3 kill.
Round 2 - vs. 4c Loam
G1: I kept a hand of 2 lands and 5 gas, won the toss, but neglected to put a Helm into play on T1 - without some big boy spell in hand, I'm afraid of how much benefit my opponent would get before I do. Turns out I never draw into biznizz, and die to Reliquary beatdown 6 or so turns in.
G2: I sided in 3x RoProgenitus at the expense of 3 Helms of A. My opponent got the dreamland magic hand of a Leyline of the Void after a mulligan to 5, and on his first turn, drops a Mox D and a Chalice on 1. Fortunately, this deck has a good spread of mana costs for gas and business alike, so I wasn't too afraid. I drop a turn 1 Relic which keeps his Loamables in check, he never finds anything more threatening than a Scavenging Ooze, and I eventually Storm off for 18 Goblins by chucking a spare Relic and a Rite of Flame into the Chalice for the Storm count.
"It's like High Tide, but Red" my opponent remarked between rounds. (Red Tide - petition for archetype name #2?)
G3: He finds a Burnwillows-Cabal Pit combo very early on, but that's not enough to stop 20 Goblins on my 3rd turn. Ha!
Round 3 - vs. BUG Combo Elves
G1: Opponent wins the toss and plays first, overextending with a Quirion Ranger into 4 Elves on by the end of his second turn. This was a perfect opportunity to Burning Wish for Cave-In, but he manages to drop a Deathrite and a NO'd 6/6 Craterhoof before I am able to rebuild handsize. I have to go off early to find Goblins to save my ass, but after we've both blasted our handsizes away to nothing, I rebuild faster, and drop a memorable EtW -> PiF -> EtW for 124 Goblins on 3 life remaining. There was quite a crowd building up by this point.
G2: I didn't sideboard. Beautiful opening of Helm -> Helm means I explode on my second turn, and War Strike him for 32.
The Finals - vs. Grixis Delver
A little scouting meant I knew beforehand I was playing a Blue Guy for the finals - I was quite glad of the opportunity to test against counters.
G1: Won the toss, Tomb -> Petal -> Ritual chain lands 14 Goblins on turn 1, and you just can't race that.
G2: Didn't side out my Helms, because I didn't expect much colorless mana in costs on his side of the field. Naturally, he goes first. T1 Delver into T2 Pyromancer just telegraphs that he's holding free counters. I play my small-time ramp (Petals and such) early on to try and bait out some counters, which he doesn't fall for, but that would at least give me the mana to pay for a Daze next turn or such.
Over this time he built up a big-ass Elemental army, though, and I wasn't able to race it.
G3: I'm on the play, I mulligan to 6, and bust out 12 Goblins and a Harambe on Turn 1. He checks the top card of his deck, and scooped on the spot. :D
A fun and rewarding night, an absolute dream to play, and something to keep building on in the future.
Welcome and CONGRATS! Well done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrerothorn
Mizzix's Mastery seems a little win-more, no? I figure if you can afford to overload it, you are already way ahead and have much better things to do with your mana. Otherwise, it might be a 4 mana Reforge the Soul or Hazoret's? Thats kind of medium?
Maybe I'm wrong.
I second Red Tide for a name...
Vetoed! Carsten plays a red version of high tide... Which is actually pretty good.
No, no.... TIGER BLOOD
TWO MONO RED STORM decks at my weekly!
Yours truly and my second favourite Magic Judge + good friend Jefferey. I ran my latest LED list to a 2-2 finish. Jeff passed on mistercakes' Torch Storm 75 and went down his own FURY ROAD (ultimate redundancy) to a 3-1 finish. He only lost to Maverick (Haz'ed into lands) and beat: Elves, Death's Shadow and something else... almost decked an opponent with Reforges / flashbacked Reforges :)
My matches went like this:
2-1 vs. BR Reanimator (Will)
G1: Animated Chancellor, beats, scoop.
G2: Kept no lander with Tormod's Crypt + rituals + business, topped City of Traitors, cast Ruby, cast Ruby... things got out of hand from there.
G3: Double Berserker + Goblins + Storm count for days.
2-0 vs. Elves (Sam)
G1: Established solid board (including Teeg), Wish into Pyro, then Gobbos.
G2: He mulled to 5, I tendrils turn 3?
1-2 vs. Maverick (Mario)
G1: Tendrils for 24.
G2: Locks me with Teeg, Thalia, Canonist... runs Canonist into gobbos (mistake for sure)... I was one mana short from taking the game away via Wish + Pyroclasm.
G3: Was close! He had the upper-hand via tax effects... I almost stabilized but was overdue to make my mistake for the night (see below for more on that).
1-2 vs. Death and Taxes (Andrew)
G1: Made a massive pile of goblins and War Strike for the win.
G2: He locks me down, I stabilized (Medallions) + Goblins... we would've been there forever, I scooped us into G3.
G3: Locks me early, I remove lock, locks me again... Serra / Thalia x 3 me to death.
OVERALL
Love this thing! I piloted better than last time, made only 1 mistake: did not save Abrade to kill Canonist vs. Maverick opting to kill Thalia instead... granted I didn't know he had it in hand but knew very well he runs it. With his clock that game, I had a higher chance to hit my reduction rocks and neuter Thalia's tax than topping a second Abrade... oh well :) Here's my latest list for your reference:
MONO RED STORM 4.3
14 LAND
12 Mountain
2 City of Traitors
8 RITUAL
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
8 MANA
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
6 REDUCTION
4 Ruby Medallion
2 Helm of Awakening
5 TUTOR
4 Burning Wish
1 Gamble
5 EXILE / PLAY
3 Act on Impulse
2 Commune with Lava
4 MANA / DRAW
4 Manamorphose
4 PEEK / DRAW
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 DISCARD / DRAW
2 Tormenting Voice
2 STORM
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 FLASHBACK
1 Past in Flames
1 DISRUPT / DRAW
1 Reforge the Soul
SIDEBOARD
2 Blood Moon
2 Abrade
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Scab-Clan Berserker
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 By Force
1 Pyroclasm
1 Sudden Demise
NOTES ON THE ABOVE:
- 15 lands is what this deck wants. I wanted a MB Grapeshot tonight, 14 lands were run.
- Moved Grapeshot MB to make room for a second sweeper (meta call).
- MVP: Gamble... did not mess me once, got me what I wanted every time it was cast.
- Abrade was excellent.
I'm glad people are trying Fury out again. After a few bad runs it's easy to have doubts, but that card is just a bit too powerful.
Sometimes you get 15cc for free.
I'm currently in a league at 3-1.
Beat storm, storm, elves. Lost to Leovold (still got game 1).
How was blood moon?
Other thing about the name of the deck. In the beginning I thought it's be nice to have a clever name, but the truth is simplicity sticks.
Belcher, pox, high tide, reanimator, survival, ANT, rug delver..... The list goes on.
I think its easiest just as mono red storm. I would have leaned towards something like Ruby Storm but again I'd rather keep it more direct.
Also all these reports with different lists more or less means to me that the core of the deck is good enough to do whatever you want.
It's a storm deck that doesn't argue over the last 2 cards, but instead we have a healthy debate about the last 10-14 cards.
There might be an optimal build, but the more I see these results.... Who cares? We will get there eventually. A deck that is competitive and has this much flexibility is super rare.
4-1 in league with this:
3 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
10 mountain
4 lotus petal
3 probe
1 gamble
4 rite of flame
4 burning wish
1 desperate ritual
4 manamorphose
2 helm of awakening
4 ruby medallion
4 act on impulse
4 seething song
2 simian spirit guide
3 past in flames
2 chandra, torch of defiance
3 reforge the soul
sb
1 tendrils of agony
2 abrade
1 grapeshot
2 scab-clan berserker
1 emtpy the warrens
1 past in flames
1 cave-in
1 reforge the soul
1 by force
1 tormod's crypt
3 defense grid (although could be blood moon, haven't tested)
beat ant ant elves grixis, lost to 4c leo. (still won game 1 vs them and would have won game 2 but i needed to hit a sol land off of the reforge so i could cast defense grid + past in flames. didn't have enough mana and he had the flusterstorm for the past in flames.
2 chandras could likely be 4th probe and 1 of anything (empty the warrens, hazoret's undying fury, 2nd gamble, commune with lava, grapeshot) or if you don't like the idea of wishing for the reforge the soul, i'd recommend just running 4 maindeck. it is something i do regularly though.
Haz-been
(Hazoret's Undying Fury + Past in Flames, "past" tense of be)
HS - HeartStone? No, Hazoret's Storm!
this name is quite fantastic xD
\intopic mode: i'm trying now 2 Act on Impulse: i've a question on them: how many Ruby+Helm do u want play for playing Act less possible? Helm seems good, but it's symmetric (good against aggro and control, worst against all others).
I feel like a lot of the new people discovering the deck are retracing over the same path vieko and I went down.
Please go through the thread to see progress with the deck. There's been a lot of play testing to come to the results we have. There's a reason I've tried to document all of this.
Currently it feels like 6 Medallion effects is what you can get away with.
I'd argue that Helm is also not great vs control, at least the ones playing kologhans command and snapcaster. The only reason why it's back as a 2 of (we had cut them all for about 2-3 weeks of testing) is because in a deck like this it doesn't matter if it's symmetrical. Our effects with helm /Ruby are much more powerful. (as mentioned in the primer).
I will update the opening post with roughly 3 different building strategies for the deck:
Biggest hazoret's payoff (which was in my original builds)
Most consistent red storm deck (which I prefer)
Strongest LED build (vieko's)
I have moved from option 1 to option 2 since more or less nonstop testing since the card was released on modo about a month ago.
Perhaps I'll also have to include some questions/answers so people don't constantly get stuck asking in the thread on things that have already come up.
I've been a but busy due to having a baby since May, but I went through the thread to show League history.
League history
2-3,(predates haz on modo)
1-4
2-3
1-4
2-2 paper local
3-2
4-1
1-4
2-3
3-2
4-1
I also want to mention that most of this league history was with running 3-4 hazoret's.
Keep in mind I played about double this amount of matches in the casual tourney practice room. (where I could close out mid-game if wife needed me for anything)
There's a fine balance between how many lands rocks and business to play with this card, and this is where playing lots and lots of matches with the deck will help you better understand this.
I love when you can pay 6 mana flip some some dumb. Combination of seething song and past in flames or wheel and just win. Statistically it's quite hard to do this.
Perhaps if we had a real numbers guy do some analysis it would provide an argument against my experience.
I probably should have documented each time hazoret's whiffed, bc it really does have a major importance in deck design.
Just took my list to a 3-0 finish in a weekly.
Beat UR Delver, Elves and Sneak and Show
Elves- Burning Wished for a Cave In to buy time before I combo him out both games in a row.
UR Delver, I T1 Helm of Awakening, drew probe and see his hand of dazes, I rip City off the probe and go off right there.
G2: I flip a Pyroblast off my Act on Impulse which conveniently stops his Force of Will.
Vs sneak
G1: He gets super unlucky and cant find force in 21cards off Griseldad. I combo him.
G2: I play some rituals after he griselbrand activates twice. He forces my first burning wish but lets my 2nd one resolve. I grab Past in Flames which 2 more rituals in hand, a medallion on board and 4 mana floating. He forces the PiF but I play more rituals and FB it to replay my yard. Draw into Burning Wish to kill him.
Pyroblast felt pretty damn good in sideboard and will probably be there for my paper list. Don't currently have any pyroblasts online
if u want study in a statistical mode, do u wnat a probability at priori (the classic one) or a Bayesian statistic?Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
I never studied statistics, so can't really comment on that. What would be nice is some kind of statistics to avoid debating over gut feelings.
What ya running these days as your 75?Quote:
Originally Posted by solnox
Second favourite judge... :'(Quote:
Originally Posted by vieko
Full fury seems funner and swingier. Against elves casting 4x reforge and 3x fury in same turn was fun.
The only match loss was failing with fury in each of the games against maverick. Both fury saw mountainx2, tomb and mana morphose, which is extremely unlucky.
I think that's closer to my original build, just depends on if you are bare okay with variance. It definitely is fun to shuffle and flip! I think for any 3-4 round local it's probably where you want to have the most fun anyway. Glad to have you aboard.
4 Act on Impulse
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Burning Wish
2 City of Traitors
2 Desperate Ritual
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Hazoret's Undying Fury
2 Helm of Awakening
4 Lotus Petal
4 Manamorphose
3 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
4 Rite of Flame
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Seething Song
2 Simian Spirit Guide
10 Mountain
1 By Force
1 Cave-In
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
2 Pyroblast
3 Defense Gride
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Rending Volley
I feel I want to try the 8 rock version. Rocks are absurd
It's true!:(
Crazy dumb cards. Especially when you have 2 Helm and the rest just become free.
I did some playtesting with a friend today with this list:
12 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Lotus Petal
3 Helm of Awakening
4 Ruby Medallion
3 Overmaster
4 Manamorphose
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
2 Hazoret's Undying Fury
3 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
4 Burning Wish
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
Sideboard:
3 Defense Grid
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Cave-In
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Grapeshot
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
1 Past in Flames
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reforge the Soul
He played about 10 games against me with Sneak and Show (maindecking 3x Omniscience), and we only played pre-board, but I honestly think his deck is just faster. I whiffed a lot, or he countered a lot, and he also just SnT/Omni/Intuition/Emrakul a LOT. like 4-5 games in a row. Afterwards, we played a few against his Dredge deck, and it was about 50/50 in 6 or so games. I noticed a lot of times my Manamorphose or Overmaster just didn't draw into enough, so I want to add a few more cantrips (in the form of Gitaxian Probe) to try to hit more gas.
I am thinking I will make the following changes in the main deck:
11 Mountain (-1)
2 Helm of Awakening (-1)
2 Past in Flames (-1)
0 Empty the Warrens (-1)
0 Grapeshot (-1)
2 Gamble (+2)
3 Gitaxian Probe (+3)
Also, I got my Ruby Medallions in the mail today, so I might pilot this at the weekly on Monday.
So I am new to this deck but why do we run tendrils. I am only two matches into a league right now but I have been basically able to grapeshot people for 30 each game with ease. Its seems to me when we go off we basically go off really hard and really over the top.