-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Well, this is still a lot of fun to learn & play.
I'm trying to fill out the last 3 cards of my sideboard. I had 2x Blue Elemental Blast and a 2nd Edict, but I think a different 1-mana counterspell would be better now that w6 is gone. Edict was for the prevalence of depths decks, which have showed up much less frequently. Dispel, Spell Pierce, and Flusterstorm come to mind immediately. I am leaning towards Dispel because it can counter Veil of Summer at parity and does much the same as Pyroblast (on the stack.)
Current:
2x ratchet bomb
2x brazen borrower
2x surgical extraction
1x nihil spellbomb
1x liliana, the last hope
1x toxic deluge
2x bitterblossom
1x diabolic edict
3x open
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Mystical Dispute is probably the best one mana counter spell we have access to. Apart from killing a resolved Delver and dodging Veil it does most of what Pyroblast does. Dispel is just too narrow.
Also, I would definitely never leave the house without some Plague Engineers. That card is broken.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Izor
Mystical Dispute is probably the best one mana counter spell we have access to. Apart from killing a resolved Delver and dodging Veil it does most of what Pyroblast does. Dispel is just too narrow.
Also, I would definitely never leave the house without some Plague Engineers. That card is broken.
How does Mystical Dispute dodge Veil? It would cost the full 3 to attempt to counter it. I can see how it can deal with quite a few other cards (Delver, Jace, Force) but it seems pretty bad against Veil/Pyroblast in particular.
Plague Engineer, if I can get them by Feb 8th, will take 2 slots in my SB. I think I'll keep 1 copy of Blue Elemental Blast in there, so that's my sideboard.
I'm also thinking of dropping to 3 Wasteland, it just doesn't pull the weight it needs to all the time. I was just going to slot in fetch #9, but I'm looking at Castle Locthwain or Creeping Tar Pit. Tar Pit has it's obvious drawbacks, both are really only good in the late game (which is where I want them to be good.) I like the reach of Tar Pit but the card draw of Lochthwain, paired with the lifeloss, could support the Shadow strategy. Mystic Sanctuary seems fairly unreliable to actually do any real work, and I fetch basic Swamp quite often.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Has anyone tried Hex Parasite as anti-PW tech in their sideboard? It takes off counters while pumping it up to attack/kill them. It's another 1-drop threat I'm considering to fight the grindy control decks that are PW-heavy. The other alternative is to play something like Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker, but I was also thinking it would be a threat that can also be played under blood moon and can kill Chalice (If I can get it underneath it, or bounce it to get a window.) I understand that Ratchet Bomb/Throne of Geth are both better specifically against the Moon Stompy variants but Hex Parasite would be good if it resolves against Ux decks that rely on PW's.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
Has anyone tried
Hex Parasite as anti-PW tech in their sideboard? It takes off counters while pumping it up to attack/kill them. It's another 1-drop threat I'm considering to fight the grindy control decks that are PW-heavy. The other alternative is to play something like
Pithing Needle or
Phyrexian Revoker, but I was also thinking it would be a threat that can also be played under blood moon and can kill Chalice (If I can get it underneath it, or bounce it to get a window.) I understand that Ratchet Bomb/Throne of Geth are both better specifically against the Moon Stompy variants but Hex Parasite would be good if it resolves against Ux decks that rely on PW's.
Hex Parasite has been played in modern esper builds, primarily as a way to tank your life that can be tutored with Ranger-Captain of Eos. I can’t imagine it is very effective against the Bant planeswalker decks or chalice because of the mana requirement to actually, say, kill an Oko and because, as you mention, it is stopped by chalice on 1.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
aedrew
Hex Parasite has been played in modern esper builds, primarily as a way to tank your life that can be tutored with Ranger-Captain of Eos. I can’t imagine it is very effective against the Bant planeswalker decks or chalice because of the mana requirement to actually, say, kill an Oko and because, as you mention, it is stopped by chalice on 1.
Would you sideboard Pithing Needle or Revoker? I've tried To the Slaughter in the past, but it's a little steep at 3 mana and can be blanked by having just a Snapcaster/Coatl/Strix on board. It might be possible to turn on Delerium, but without Baubles it would likely be pretty tough.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
Would you sideboard Pithing Needle or Revoker? I've tried
To the Slaughter in the past, but it's a little steep at 3 mana and can be blanked by having just a Snapcaster/Coatl/Strix on board. It might be possible to turn on Delerium, but without Baubles it would likely be pretty tough.
Needle. It is also able to name lands which gives it the nod in the board instead of revoker 3 or 4.
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
Would you sideboard Pithing Needle or Revoker? I've tried
To the Slaughter in the past, but it's a little steep at 3 mana and can be blanked by having just a Snapcaster/Coatl/Strix on board. It might be possible to turn on Delerium, but without Baubles it would likely be pretty tough.
I think needle and revoker are fine in the matchup but it will still be an uphill battle, so hopefully they help you in other matchups too. I don’t think To the Slaughter is worth it for the reasons you mention and because it is weak to Veil of Summer.
I can’t say I have been happy with any sideboard plan for this matchup. I tried Noxious Grasp, which was ok but not great. Mystical Dispute is quite good. I am starting to think that no amount of sideboard cards will flip the matchup in our favor, but you can steal some wins by pressuring them fast and hard. I think the deck either needs to make more fundamental changes or just write this one off.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
aedrew
I think needle and revoker are fine in the matchup but it will still be an uphill battle, so hopefully they help you in other matchups too. I don’t think To the Slaughter is worth it for the reasons you mention and because it is weak to Veil of Summer.
I can’t say I have been happy with any sideboard plan for this matchup. I tried Noxious Grasp, which was ok but not great. Mystical Dispute is quite good. I am starting to think that no amount of sideboard cards will flip the matchup in our favor, but you can steal some wins by pressuring them fast and hard. I think the deck either needs to make more fundamental changes or just write this one off.
Good to know, thanks. I don't expect a lot of it in my local metagame, which is why I'm still fairly comfortable piloting the deck. I think I'm going to just sideboard the 2 Bitterblossoms and cross my fingers. Historically the metagame in Maine has been lighter on blue than almost anywhere else. We see a lot of Moon Stompy, Lands, Depths, Reanimator, Burn, Dredge, Storm, Death and Taxes, and other fringe decks like Goblns. I even played against Enchantress twice in one 5 round tournament! There is a good amount of blue-based decks like UW Stoneblade and Grixis Delver, just in fewer numbers than most areas. While Veil of Summer does show up in Storm decks now I feel that the overall gameplan of Shadow is favored against them with discard, counters, and a fast clock. There may be 1-2 other decks (4c Pile or Bant Miracles) that show up with Veil of Summer, but I don't expect to see a lot of it. It's lower number of blue decks that makes me want to use Dispel: it's a counterspell with applications across a lot of non-blue matchups but still lets me efficiently win stacks. I also think Brazen Borrower is a card that has really helped tip the scales for some matchups. It's so tempo-positive and even provides additional threats in matchups where increasing threat density helps.
I almost always write up a sideboard guide before tournaments, and the 2/8 1K coming up is no exception. I have one spot in the maindeck and a few slots in the sideboard that I've been agonizing over, but otherwise is I'm locked in. If it isn't too annoying to the forum, I'll post it later.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Testing my list out tonight at the LGS, hope it goes well. Here is my list:
4x Death’s Shadow
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Street Wraith
2x Gurmag Angler
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Force of Will
1x Force of Negation
4x Daze
2x Dismember
2x Fatal Push
4x Thoughtseize
2x Reanimate
1x Hymn to Tourach
4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
4x Watery Grave
1x Island
1x Swamp
4x Wasteland
Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Bitterblossom
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Brazen Borrower
1x Dispel
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Darkblast
Deluge/Darkblast will become Plague Engineers if I can pick them up.
Sideboard guide:
Moon Stompy: +2 Borrower, +2 RBomb, +1 BEB, +1 Deluge, -4 Thoughtseize, -1 Reanimate, -1 Daze
Bant Miracles: +2 Blossom, +1 Liliana, +1 Dispel, OTD -4 Daze, OTP -1 Push, -1 FoN, -2 Daze
Grixis Delver: +2 Blossom, +1 BEB, +1 Deluge, +1 Dispel, -1 FoN, -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Reanimate, -2 Daze
TES: +1 BEB, +2 Surgical, +1 Spellbomb, +1 Dispel, -2 Push, -2 Dismember, -1 Reanimate
ANT: +2 Surgical, +1 Spellbomb, +1 Dispel, -2 Push, -2 Dismember
Burn: +1 BEB, +2 RBomb, +1 Dispel, -4 Thoughtseize
Depths: +2 Borrower, +2 Blossom, +1 Edict, +2 Surgical, -1 Hymn, -2 Push, -4 Daze
Sneak/Show: +2 Surgical, +2 Borrower, +1 Edict, +1 Dispel, +1 BEB, -2 Dismember, -2 Push, -3 Daze
Reanimator: +2 Surgical, +1 Spellbomb, +1 Edict, +2 Borrower, -1 Hymn, -2 Dismember, -2 Push, -1 SW
Dredge: +2 Surgical, +1 Spellbomb, +1 RBomb, +1 Deluge, -1 Hymn, -4 Thoughtseize,
Stoneblade: +1 Deluge, +1 Edict, +2 Borrower, +2 Bitterblossom, -4 Daze, -1 FoN, -1 Force of Will
UR Delver: same as Grixis Delver
D&T: +1 Deluge, +1 Liliana, +1 Darkblast, +2 RBomb, -1 FoN, -4 Daze
Eldrazi: +2 RBomb, +2 Borrower, -4 Thoughtseize
Goblins: +1 Deluge, +1 Liliana, +1 Darkblast, -1 FoN, -2 Daze
Elves: same as Goblins
Lands: +1 Edict, +2 Borrower, +1 BEB, +2 Blossom, -2 Push, -3 Thoughtzeize, -1 Hymn
Aggro Loam: +2 RBomb, +2 Bitterblossom, +1 BEB, -4 Thoughtseize, -1 Reanimate
BUG Delver: same as Grixis/UR except bring in Edict instead of BEB
Infect: +1 Deluge, +1 Liliana, +1 Dispel, +1 Darkblast, -1 FoN, -1 Hymn, -1 Reanimate, -1 Wraith
Sorry for spamming so much in a post! I would love feedback.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
I would love feedback.
pretty classic-looking list. couple of thoughts & nitpicks: not sure if I would run a Hymn (even just one) along basic Island; consider Spell Pierce or Stubby D? And do you reckon that 2 Bitterblossoms is enough of a plan against all the Snoko/Control soups? That Dispel could be a Flusterstorm and I'd try to find a slot for a Mystical Dispute somewhere. Finally: I don't know your particular meta, but elsewhere there don't seem to be a lot of black creatures running around right now (Strixes are now Snakes and Delver's Gurmags are Bedlams), so why not run 2 Snuff Outs?
I think if I chose to run DS atm, I'd go with a light green splash for 2 Decays, 1 Library, +2 Veils out of the board and would borrow that Painful Truths / Mystic Sanctuary tech from recent Grixis Delver decks against control.
Good luck tonight!
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
sorry, didn't see your comment about the local meta. If Miracles & blue decks in general are not that big an issue, you're probably good to go.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Agree on the basic island. I think after playing this deck for a while, you start to see how bad the basics really are in this deck. It was advertised as a potential budget deck when it came out in 2018 for not needing Seas but honestly I think that's super misleading. The selling point to this deck is that you can be really aggressive, way more than other Delver variants. But there's a lot of trade-offs to this: starting at effectively 10 life in races, not being able to sit back and trade cards 1 for 1 at mana advantage like Canadian Thresh can, often being forced to play disruption in your first main phase rather than getting to choose when you play it, not being able to drop an Angler or Shadow at nearly any time like you can with Goyf. These are all serious downsides so you really need to be able to play to that extra pressure. But if you're playing a basic Island it totally screws your pressure and sequencing. Sea gives you access to things like turn 2 Thoughtseize > Shadow / Angler while still being able to cantrip. I could see a reasonable argument for maybe the single Swamp but even then... ehh. You start to really notice how much the inability to jam your spells screws your tempo advantage, and Ponder / Brainstorm / Daze are still a big part of that. And this affects every single MU. I think the disadvantages to playing basics was severely downplayed when this deck came out. I personally would rather take the 5 U/B fetch targets (3 Grave, 2 Sea) and just try to deal with mana hate via tighter play.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Ended up just jamming games against friends, not enough to fire an 8 man event. I played against 2 d&t players and against a maverick stew splashing blue for oko and 3feri. Not a good sample really.
Here's what I did: nabbed 2 plague engineers for the board, maindecked a borrower over the hymn, and I cut to 3 wastelands and put in a 9th fetch.
The basics were good all night in test games. Without hymn I didn't need bb for anything other than liliana.
Deck is super fun, but absurdly weak to a StP. I got 2-for-1-ed several times that way.
Still learning a ton on how to play a blue tempo deck. It's rewarding to be improving as a player, but man I have a long ways to go before I master this deck.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Debating a Mindbreak Trap and a Ravenous Trap in my sideboard for the new hotness of Underworld Breach. I think it would be favorable already given Shadow is a Thoughtseize/Force/Daze deck but I don't think having 1-2 sideboard slots that play well against Storm/Breach would be a bad idea.
I think I'll see some dredge on 2/8 as well, so I think Ravenous Trap could be a good metagame call.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Planar Void is a fairly nasty card if you’re trying to stick it to Underworld Breach (though you’d be wanting Gurmags to come out). Probably not worth considering however, unless you’re also running Surgical and expect storm decks as well. These triggers create priority windows which interrupt PiF into Tutor and Tutor into the card it found. These triggers also stop LED into Echo. Bonus points b/c this card played pretty nicely with DRS back when he was legal.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
It's a cool idea, but I don't want to sacrifice my early development. I think Mindbreak Trap/Ravenous Trap could be just as effective as blowouts to support the Surgicals/Spellbomb I'm using as gravehate. Having 4/5 of those specific hate options being essentially 'free' means I can still Delver, Ponder, Brainstorm, Wasteland, Thoughtseize, or Daze early and not lose to opposing answers. Having all of my gravehate being one-sided means I don't have to compromise on Gurmags, which are pretty important.
I think at the very least I will put in the Ravenous Trap. I have 3 grave hates currently, having a 4th seems smart. Mindbreak Trap would take the place of either Dispel or Blue Elemental Blast. BEB has relevance beyond Breach by countering/killing Burning Wish, Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, Chandra ToD, Sneak Attack, Pyroblast, KCommand, Young Peezy, Lightning Bolt, Abrade, and Burn.dec. Dispel has relevance as a counter to key protection/sideboard answers like Silence, Orim's Chant, and Veil of Summer while also countering some amount of spells out of almost every deck.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
The thing about Rav Trap is you still die to Silence effects. You should either be wanting to have on-board yard hate (Crypt/Void/Leyline/Spellbomb/Cage) or game actions (Macabre or the spiciest Emmy SB shuffle trick ever).
Edit: Damping Sphere would also be a reasonable card, with further application against Storm, Elves, and Post. This puts a pretty swift stop to opening up with cards like Silence and Veil.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Yeah, I think it needs to be permanent-based hate. Fighting on the stack is ok to fight their disruption (Silence, Orim's Chant, Spell Pierce) but fighting on the stack against their graveyard is a losing proposition unless it's Surgical Extraction on LED. I'm leaving the trap cards (see what I did there?) home. If I feel the need for another grave hate in the board then it will be another Spellbomb or Tormod's Crypt.
I am also debating Spell Snare maindeck over the Spell Pierce I added. It's a hard counter that's good against a lot of problematic cards: Underworld Breach, Chalice@1 (on the play), Stoneforge Mystic, Sylvan Library, and Snapcaster Mage. It also hits a lot of other metagame bullshit that is guaranteed to show up that doesn't need Spell Snare specifically to answer but it's very efficient to do so: Tarmogoyf, Hymn to Tourach, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Young Pyromancer.
Spell Pierce was to have extra options to fight on the stack against PW's. I think it's ok to lean a little heavier on Thoughtsieze and Forces for PW's.
So sideboard looks like this:
2x Plague Engineer
1x Brazen Borrower
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Darkblast
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Bitterblossom
1x Open
Open slot could be: Mystical Dispute, Dispel, Spell Pierce, Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, Damping Sphere, Hymn to Tourach, 2nd Nihil Spellbomb, Tormod's Crypt, or anything else someone suggests
EDIT: I have a higher than average amount of Lands players in the New England metagame, debating 1-2 Winter Orbs.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
After HJKaiser introduced the SB plan of Painful Truths + Mystic Sanctuary in Grixis Delver I wanted to try the same thing here with Infernal Contract, which is like the turbocharged Painful Truths for UB decks
4 Shadow
4 Gargoyle
4 Wraith
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Dismember
1 Fatal Push
1 Preordain
4 Wasteland
8 Blue Fetchlands
2 Sea
4 Grave
SB
2 Infernal Contract
2 Liliana the Last Hope
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Plague Engineer
2 Force of Negation
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Mystic Sanctuary
1 Liliana's Triumph
1 (Null Rod / Triumph #2 / Something)
I played 4 post-sb games against 4c Miracles today and the package of contract + Lili + Sanctuary seems very potent.
I was worried that without Reveler / Dreadhorde / YP etc as threats that accumulate resources it would be too hard to fight through 4C Miracles but contract gives an extra card compared to painful truths and (very importantly) the deck has this additional resilient threat in the form of Liliana.
A lot of Miracles players have cut AK for Coatl now which seriously limits their ability to grind, and Lili +1 can easily clean up any Coatl/Snapcaster for free.
Mostly they board out forces for stuff like Veil or Pyroblast so it's very hard for them to stop Contract from resolving at which point you fill your hand with countermagic/discard
At that point all you need to do is keep Oko off the table (Not too hard with Daze/FoW/Stubbo/Negation/Discard etc after you have drawn 4) and then winning seems pretty straightforward
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Interesting, I'm debating a green splash for some tech and Painful Truths seems good out of the board, I don't have any copies of Infernal Contract.
I played in a 5 round 1k yesterday, went 2-3. Wins were against blue Maverick and Punishing Maverick. Losses were to 4c Pile, Bant Miracles, and Burn. I think I need a 2nd Lily Last Hope, that card is bananas.
EDIT: This is what I'm going to play for a little while, test the waters. I think Hymn to Tourach should have been in the 75, and for now it's in the maindeck. I cut down to 1 Reanimate (it was 'meh') and because the emphasis on reanimating Street Wraith is lower I'm cutting to 3 Wraiths. I think this is fine considering I'm on 4 Watery Grave and 0 Underground Sea.
4x Death’s Shadow
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Street Wraith
2x Gurmag Angler
1x Brazen Borrower
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Force of Will
2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Spell Snare
4x Daze
2x Dismember
2x Fatal Push
4x Thoughtseize
1x Reanimate
4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
4x Watery Grave
1x Island
1x Swamp
4x Wasteland
Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Bitterblossom
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Plague Engineer
1x Brazen Borrower
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Narset, Parter of Veils
1x Force of Negation
I don't like playing Infernal Contract with basic lands, I don't think the BBB will ever be reasonably hit. I'm going to try Narset in those slots as a way to gain card advantage against the Pile/Miracles lists. Once I get a 2nd Liliana Last Hope I think that will replace the Narset. I'm also curious about the 4 Gargoyle plan over Delver...it's slower to get started, but a little easier to turn on as an aggressive threat. It makes Stubborn Denial a better counterspell, for sure.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Is there potential for Standstill to come in out of the board for the control matchups? I would think Thoughtseize/Fatal Push/Daze/Force of Will should keep t1 open to land a t2 Standstill and really put pressure on Pile/Miracles. Having played Dreadstill in the past, I know that getting at least 20 lands into the deck is probably necessary, so maybe Mystic Sanctuary + {other utility land} could come in as well to make 20 lands to go with 3x Standstill.
Thoughts?
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
Is there potential for
Standstill to come in out of the board for the control matchups? I would think Thoughtseize/Fatal Push/Daze/Force of Will should keep t1 open to land a t2 Standstill and really put pressure on Pile/Miracles. Having played Dreadstill in the past, I know that getting at least 20 lands into the deck is probably necessary, so maybe Mystic Sanctuary + {other utility land} could come in as well to make 20 lands to go with 3x Standstill.
Thoughts?
You have no options to draw into pressure that goes past the standstill (ie Factory) so if you play standstill on an empty board your opponent just ignores it and plays draw-go until they have like 10 lands on the battlefield and then breaks the standstill in your endstep when you have 7 cards in hand already. Now your opponent has enough resources to hardcast Terminus and play around your Dazes and such. Doesn't seem like a good idea to me
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kombatkiwi
You have no options to draw into pressure that goes past the standstill (ie Factory) so if you play standstill on an empty board your opponent just ignores it and plays draw-go until they have like 10 lands on the battlefield and then breaks the standstill in your endstep when you have 7 cards in hand already. Now your opponent has enough resources to hardcast Terminus and play around your Dazes and such. Doesn't seem like a good idea to me
Good call. I think without landing a threat first (Delver/reanimated Street Wraith) it would be terrible without Factories. Mana advantage gets sticky too, when they draw more lands (as you say.) I'll leave it out. I was just trying to come up with a more efficient way to gain card advantage than Infernal Contract. Search for Azcanta comes to mind as well. I want to figure out something that doesn't cost 3 mana that isn't a PW; once the 3 mana threshold gets hit Liliana the last Hope and Narset are both superior choices, in my opinion, than a draw 3 for 3.
EDIT: sorry, I didn't realize Contract drew 4 cards. I love the synergy, hate the mana cost.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
Good call. I think without landing a threat first (Delver/reanimated Street Wraith) it would be terrible without Factories. Mana advantage gets sticky too, when they draw more lands (as you say.) I'll leave it out. I was just trying to come up with a more efficient way to gain card advantage than Infernal Contract.
Search for Azcanta comes to mind as well. I want to figure out something that doesn't cost 3 mana that isn't a PW; once the 3 mana threshold gets hit Liliana the last Hope and Narset are both superior choices, in my opinion, than a draw 3 for 3.
EDIT: sorry, I didn't realize Contract drew 4 cards. I love the synergy, hate the mana cost.
Last Hope is a good complement to Contract (I'm playing 2 of each) because you need some way to clean up miracles value creatures so they can't chip you out, and it's also a threat that eventually wins the game.
Narset is alright but compared to contract 4 cards is significantly more than 2 and it doesn't have the Mystic Sanctuary synergy. (The fact it's Pyroblastable is also a significant drawback in the metagame currently)
Search for Azcanta "costs 2" in the top right corner but you still have to tap 3 other lands every time you want to use it
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Is Jace, The Mind Sculptor too greedy out of the sideboard? In matchups where games will go longer he seems like a strong way to supplement Bitterblossom/Liliana as must-answer threats. I'm only playing 18 lands, but I know that I'll hit land drops in the Pile/Miracles matchups due to games going longer.
EDIT: I forgot to add that I would also put a Mystic Sanctuary into the sideboard, both coming in together (Jace + Sanctuary) to give me 19 lands.
I'm also agonizing over Spell Pierce vs Spell Snare vs Force of Negation vs Stubborn Denial maindeck. I only have room for 1 now that I have 2x Hymn in the maindeck (committed to that for now) so I know it's a small thing to stress over. I feel like Stubborn Denial is just too conditional to ever do anything more than Daze already does (playing only 6 creatures to turn it on as a hard counter.) Snare seems great in problematic matchups (Death and Taxes) while Pierce hits PW's more reliably. Force of Negation seems fine, but it doesn't protect my threats during my turn.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
New result (local paper event)
4 Shadow
4 Gargoyle
4 Wraith
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Hymn
4 Thoughtseize
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Dismember
1 Preordain
1 Fatal Push
4 Waste
4 Grave
2 Sea
8 Blue Fetchlands
SB:
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Liliana's Triumph
2 Plague Engineer
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Force of Negation
2 Infernal Contract
1 Mystic Sanctuary
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
R1: Eldrazi Stompy 1-2
R2: Infect 2-1
R3: Aggro Loam 2-0
R4: RUG Delver 1-2
R5: Moon Stompy 2-1
T8: Stryfo Pile 2-0
T4: RUG Delver 2-1
Final: Eldrazi Dynamo 1-2
List seems good
You could maybe move 1 FON to the main over a stub or the preordain to open another SB slot
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kombatkiwi
New result (local paper event)
4 Shadow
4 Gargoyle
4 Wraith
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Hymn
4 Thoughtseize
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Dismember
1 Preordain
1 Fatal Push
4 Waste
4 Grave
2 Sea
8 Blue Fetchlands
SB:
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Liliana's Triumph
2 Plague Engineer
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Force of Negation
2 Infernal Contract
1 Mystic Sanctuary
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
R1: Eldrazi Stompy 1-2
R2: Infect 2-1
R3: Aggro Loam 2-0
R4: RUG Delver 1-2
R5: Moon Stompy 2-1
T8: Stryfo Pile 2-0
T4: RUG Delver 2-1
Final: Eldrazi Dynamo 1-2
List seems good
You could maybe move 1 FON to the main over a stub or the preordain to open another SB slot
How important is hymn to the Gargoyle plan? I like the idea of playing gargoyle over delver. I may just take your list to a weekly and see what it does.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
How important is hymn to the Gargoyle plan? I like the idea of playing gargoyle over delver. I may just take your list to a weekly and see what it does.
Pretty key I think, but the deck should play 4 Hymn regardless in my opinion, and then you can consider whether you want to play 2 Gargoyle + 2 Angler or 2 Jace + 2 Gargoyle or 2 Jace + 2 Angler or whatever
(i.e. it's not like "wow gargoyle is so good I want to play 4, then how can I enable it, I must play 4 hymn": it's the other way around, gargoyle is viable because the deck happens to have 4 hymn in it)
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Cool, thanks for the response. I think a split between Gargoyle/Angler might be bad, considering it lowers the blue count for forces. As it stands I only have 22 blue cards total, which is probably ok. I really like the idea of keeping in Reanimate, so I'm going to try and cram that in there as well. It makes it so I have 10 threats instead of just 8.
4x Death's Shadow
4x Street Wraith
4x Vantress Gargoyle
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
2x Stubborn Denial
2x Fatal Push
1x Dismember
1x Reanimate
4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
4x Watery Grave
1x Island
1x Swamp
4x Wasteland
Sideboard
2x Plague Engineer
2x Brazen Borrower
2x Bitterblossom
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Mystic Sanctuary
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Force of Negation
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
This is what I'm going to sleave up for Thursday night. I'm also curious about a more mid-range approach with 19 lands maindeck and playing a 2/2 split of Engineer/Borrower maindeck over Delver/Borrower/Gurmag slots. Reanimate gets a lot more value this way, maybe even maindecking Last Hope, and just dropping the Stubborn Denials. I think without at least 6+ creatures to support Stub it isn't worth including.
Also, this list just won a Hareruya event in Japan. No Street Wraiths, maindeck Borrowers, basics over USeas. This is basically my mana-base, which is cool to see. Only 27 players, but still a good showing. A full 4 Mystical Dispute in the sideboard.
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24657&f=LE
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
I'm hoping to make it to FNM tonight, taking kombatkiwi's maindeck list with only minor changes: -1 Preordain/+1 Reanimate and my budget manabase. There are several local players that jam Reanimator and Dredge, so the Reanimate will be quite good as disruption and a 9th threat. I know he isn't a huge fan of Brazen Borrower, but I love the card so I'm playing that in the sideboard instead of Edict/Triumph. It solves some of the same issues (Marit Lage, Griselbrand) but doesn't solve others (Emrakul, TNN). Luckily, I don't see many of those threats other than Marit Lage. I could see cutting a Surgical or the spellbomb for an Edict/Triumph but I'll jam this for now and see how it goes. Thoughtseize/Hymn are both very good in the Sneak/Show matchup alongside Stub/Daze/Force and Negation out of the board. One other card I'm really interested in playing a 1-of is Umezawa's Jitte. It should really help against D&T, Delver decks, and help manage life total against something like Burn.
2x Brazen Borrower
2x Plague Engineer
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Bitterblossom
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Mystic Sanctuary
1x Force of Negation
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Holy shit is Vantress Gargoyle a bad card. That list was hot fucking garbage. I only attacked once with it, and I never had enough threats. Delver, Gurmag, and Borrower back in.
I don't know what field that 8 threat 4 hymn list is good in, but I am beyond skeptical. Fucking garbage.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
The Vantress giveth and the Vantress taketh. How many Uro and Gurmag did you run into?
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
The Vantress giveth and the Vantress taketh. How many Uro and Gurmag did you run into?
Zero. Lost to shadow mirror, eldrazipost, and bomberman. All matchups where traditional threats would have been infinitely better. Gargoyle giveth fucking nothing. Most of the time couldn't attack, most of the time couldn't block. Pitching to force and making room for sideboard cards is the best I can say of it.
Edit: shadow deck was grixis with arcanist/bolts instead of gurmags.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
Zero. Lost to shadow mirror, eldrazipost, and bomberman. All matchups where traditional threats would have been infinitely better. Gargoyle giveth fucking nothing. Most of the time couldn't attack, most of the time couldn't block. Pitching to force and making room for sideboard cards is the best I can say of it.
Edit: shadow deck was grixis with arcanist/bolts instead of gurmags.
Obviously having Delver in your deck is better vs Bomberman and especially Post, I have never denied this. I also basically never block with Gargoyle either
Against those kinds of Grixis deck if you play more games you might find that you can exploit the fact that you don't have creatures that die to bolt
There are a lot of other questionable things about your list as well
- Mystic Sanctuary in the board without Infernal Contract or any other highly impactful card to return with it
- Trying to make the rest of the list work with the budget manabase, specifically playing 4x Hymn with a basic island and Mystic Sanctuary with a basic swamp. (And then because of the basic swamp you also have the tension of playing Mystic Sanctuary with 1 Marsh Flats)
It's fine to not like playing the list without Delver (and even then 4 gargoyle is not essential either, you could easily play like 2 Gargoyle and 2 Angler if you wanted) and it's definitely not a strict upgrade. (i.e. I don't think it improves literally every matchup, but I prefer it because on balance I think it's overall better against the meta)
I just think that if you want to play Thoughtseize and Delver of Secrets in the same deck then Grixis Delver (no Shadows) is a better choice
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kombatkiwi
Obviously having Delver in your deck is better vs Bomberman and especially Post, I have never denied this. I also basically never block with Gargoyle either.
If you are only playing 8 threats, blocking is going to be pretty important. It would have been instrumental in some matchups for trading resources and stabilizing. I will say this several times during this post: Vantress Gargoyle is not a good card.
Quote:
Against those kinds of Grixis deck if you play more games you might find that you can exploit the fact that you don't have creatures that die to bolt
Maybe, but they have more threats and an ability to play the same disruption game. If I had haymaker plays further up in the curve I could do a passable impression of a Grixis mid-range deck, but the options weren't there. Gargoyle was too conditional to be a valid resource on the board. Vantress Gargoyle is not a good card.
Quote:
There are a lot of other questionable things about your list as well
- Mystic Sanctuary in the board without Infernal Contract or any other highly impactful card to return with it
- Trying to make the rest of the list work with the budget manabase, specifically playing 4x Hymn with a basic island and Mystic Sanctuary with a basic swamp. (And then because of the basic swamp you also have the tension of playing Mystic Sanctuary with 1 Marsh Flats)
1) Mystic Sanctuary was fine, even re-bought me a Hymn once and allowed me to play lands on curve to play a Jace. Being a 19th land is it's floor, which it accomplished admirably, and it's ceiling with something like Infernal Contract would be incredibly unreliable as a one-of. It's a cute interaction, one that I'm sure will come up more often once the overall number of games played gets higher. That won't happen, the list is poor for all the reasons I'm describing. The one positive thing I learned was that Mystic Sanctuary is a great card in the sideboard, not just for being an extra land against Wasteland and casting 3-drops easier, but simply because re-buying a removal/discard/counter in the mid-late game is the kind of card advantage needed to grind through the control matchups. Jace is still fine as a 1-of where games might go long, it's a card that has the right power level higher in the curve to help when you need it. Of all the things that went wrong, sideboarding Mystic Sanctuary was not one of them, even if it was 'questionable' without infernal contract.
2) My budget mana-base didn't prevent my deck from working, it worked fine, I played my cards. They just weren't good enough together to actually win. I only had 1 situation where basic Island was in my opening hand, and it still didn't prevent me from turn 3 Hymn. In fact, the basic Island was instrumental in casting a Jace, several Brazen Borrowers, and hardcast Force of Will. Don't use the 'budget manabase' minor variance to excuse a list that is fundamentally flawed by having too much disruption and too few threats (half of which are unreliable, basically having to hit the perfect mix to make it useful at all.) More than 1-2 Hymns is questionable, having 4 maindeck is a liability against anything short of combo decks. When people get on the board faster, and in greater numbers, top-decking another hymn is useless. So I would need a Gargoyle to stabilize, threaten blocking to hold the fort, but it can't do that while you try to play out the cards you actually have to actually play the game. Vantress Gargoyle is not a good card.
Quote:
It's fine to not like playing the list without Delver (and even then 4 gargoyle is not essential either, you could easily play like 2 Gargoyle and 2 Angler if you wanted) and it's definitely not a strict upgrade. (i.e. I don't think it improves literally every matchup, but I prefer it because on balance I think it's overall better against the meta)
It wasn't about 'not liking playing the list without delver', it was the fact that there was too few threats period, then doubled-down when half of them were garbage. I mentioned in an earlier post that splitting the blue threats would be a bad idea because the blue count for Force of Will/Negation is borderline low already. Depending on how you manipulate the maindeck between 20-22 blue cards total, which is pretty tight considering 5-6 Force variants. I would rather work back in Gurmag Angler, an actual good card. Vantress Gargoyle is not a good card.
Quote:
I just think that if you want to play Thoughtseize and Delver of Secrets in the same deck then Grixis Delver (no Shadows) is a better choice
I think this is pretty amusing. When all else fails, point in another direction. The combination of Thoughtseize and Delver is perfectly fine on it's own, both cards pulling their own weight but also working together (dealing with removal/threats, clearing the path for Delver, flipping delver on the top of the deck.) Compare that to Gargoyle which needs the perfect mix of criteria to do anything, mostly with the consent of your opponent. Delver and Thoughtseize don't care what your opponent has done, they are still good regardless. Gargoyle is depending on your opponent getting threshold to attack, but also making you somehow have 4 cards in hand to be a big enough threat to play defense (and you're playing a lot of defense when you are only playing 8 threats.)
I'm not sure if I've said this already, but Vantress Gargoyle is not a good card. Playing 3-4 Hymns main might be ok alongside Gurmag Angler and Delver, both of which don't require it but benefit from it. Your main argument was that 4 Hymn is correct and Gargoyle just benefits from that. Four Hymn is certainly not correct, except against combo decks that don't play Veil of Summer, which as of right now are practically non-existent. I think you played a quirky list at a local paper event and got lucky. The list doesn't follow the traditional templates of any sort of proven strategy, so it's flawed. The threats don't pull double duty to play well like a mid-range deck (like Baleful Strix, Snapcaster Mage) and there are too few of them to be aggressive enough to race slower decks (minimum 12 in Delver decks, most are playing upwards of 13-14 lately.)
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
If you are only playing 8 threats, blocking is going to be pretty important. It would have been instrumental in some matchups for trading resources and stabilizing. I will say this several times during this post: Vantress Gargoyle is not a good card.
Ok, but you are going to be cutting some other card that also does the role of "trading resources" (e.g. Hymn) and a lot of other tempo creatures aren't very effective at blocking either (Delver, Arcanist, Borrower). Angler and Pyro are fine and like I keep saying you can play a very similar deck with Anglers if you want
Quote:
Maybe, but they have more threats and an ability to play the same disruption game. If I had haymaker plays further up in the curve I could do a passable impression of a Grixis mid-range deck, but the options weren't there.
This is like, almost getting it, but I think this has been explained in the thread before
Quote:
1) Mystic Sanctuary was fine, even re-bought me a Hymn once and allowed me to play lands on curve to play a Jace. Being a 19th land is it's floor, which it accomplished admirably,
I'm not trying to suggest that all of my concerns would have become immediately apparent in 3 matches but in the long run it's something I would be concerned about
Quote:
The one positive thing I learned was that Mystic Sanctuary is a great card in the sideboard, not just for being an extra land against Wasteland and casting 3-drops easier, but simply because re-buying a removal/discard/counter in the mid-late game is the kind of card advantage needed to grind through the control matchups.
Yes, being able to turn an extra land into a reclaim for a counterspell is very useful when you're ahead on board
Quote:
Jace is still fine as a 1-of where games might go long, it's a card that has the right power level higher in the curve to help when you need it. Of all the things that went wrong, sideboarding Mystic Sanctuary was not one of them, even if it was 'questionable' without infernal contract.
I'm still not sure it offers anything that isn't served better by other cards considering the high manacost and the vulnerability to red blast.
Quote:
2) My budget mana-base didn't prevent my deck from working, it worked fine, I played my cards. They just weren't good enough together to actually win. I only had 1 situation where basic Island was in my opening hand, and it still didn't prevent me from turn 3 Hymn. In fact, the basic Island was instrumental in casting a Jace, several Brazen Borrowers, and hardcast Force of Will. Don't use the 'budget manabase' minor variance to excuse a list that is fundamentally flawed by having too much disruption and too few threats (half of which are unreliable, basically having to hit the perfect mix to make it useful at all.)
Again I'm just saying this manabase will cause issues in the long run, I'm not trying to say that it was directly responsible for your 0-3
Quote:
More than 1-2 Hymns is questionable, having 4 maindeck is a liability against anything short of combo decks. When people get on the board faster, and in greater numbers, top-decking another hymn is useless. So I would need a Gargoyle to stabilize, threaten blocking to hold the fort, but it can't do that while you try to play out the cards you actually have to actually play the game. Vantress Gargoyle is not a good card. It wasn't about 'not liking playing the list without delver', it was the fact that there was too few threats period, then doubled-down when half of them were garbage. I mentioned in an earlier post that splitting the blue threats would be a bad idea because the blue count for Force of Will/Negation is borderline low already. Depending on how you manipulate the maindeck between 20-22 blue cards total, which is pretty tight considering 5-6 Force variants. I would rather work back in Gurmag Angler, an actual good card. Vantress Gargoyle is not a good card.
Ok
Quote:
I think this is pretty amusing. When all else fails, point in another direction. The combination of Thoughtseize and Delver is perfectly fine on it's own, both cards pulling their own weight but also working together (dealing with removal/threats, clearing the path for Delver, flipping delver on the top of the deck.) Compare that to Gargoyle which needs the perfect mix of criteria to do anything, mostly with the consent of your opponent. Delver and Thoughtseize don't care what your opponent has done, they are still good regardless. Gargoyle is depending on your opponent getting threshold to attack, but also making you somehow have 4 cards in hand to be a big enough threat to play defense (and you're playing a lot of defense when you are only playing 8 threats.)
There is a real inherent tension in playing a deck with 4 Delver of Secrets and 0 burn spells and again I'm not going to elaborate on this because it's all been said before
Quote:
I'm not sure if I've said this already, but Vantress Gargoyle is not a good card. Playing 3-4 Hymns main might be ok alongside Gurmag Angler and Delver, both of which don't require it but benefit from it. Your main argument was that 4 Hymn is correct and Gargoyle just benefits from that. Four Hymn is certainly not correct, except against combo decks that don't play Veil of Summer, which as of right now are practically non-existent.
If you say so
Quote:
I think you played a quirky list at a local paper event and got lucky.
Ok cool, I think you played at a local paper event and got unlucky? You're not going to win a sample size argument with your 3 matches
Quote:
The list doesn't follow the traditional templates of any sort of proven strategy, so it's flawed.
There are upsides to this kind of ruthless pragmatism but you obviously don't really subscribe to this philosophy otherwise you wouldn't be posting in the development forum trying to brew a UB Shadow/Dreadnought/Standstill deck
Quote:
The threats don't pull double duty to play well like a mid-range deck (like Baleful Strix, Snapcaster Mage) and there are too few of them to be aggressive enough to race slower decks (minimum 12 in Delver decks, most are playing upwards of 13-14 lately.)
You don't need many threats to race when 4 of them are a 1 mana 8/8 and the other 4 are a 2 mana 5/4 flyer.
The "minimum 12" idea is silly as well, all I have to do is scroll a few tweets down my feed as I'm typing this post and see this list with 11:
https://twitter.com/birchloreranger/...60037972639744
It wasn't uncommon for people to play RUG with 10
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Ok cool, I think you played at a local paper event and got unlucky? You're not going to win a sample size argument with your 3 matches.
This is a fair statement...but I also had zero interest in pursuing the list further. If it neither wins nor is fun, what is the point of continuing?
Quote:
There are upsides to this kind of ruthless pragmatism but you obviously don't really subscribe to this philosophy otherwise you wouldn't be posting in the development forum trying to brew a UB Shadow/Dreadnought/Standstill deck.
If you look closely, I'm still following a Dreadstill template. I am playing 4 Dreadnoughts, 4 other 1-drop creatures (Shadow instead of Delver), 3 copies of Factory (some play the full 4, I realize this) and then I am playing Borrower x2 and Scroll x2 instead of Scroll x4. I am playing free counterspells, Brainstorm, 5 removals (varying here slightly over the 4 because I don't have Street Wraiths to drive my life total down) and Thoughtsieze instead of Daze. I have 3 Standstill main, which isn't uncommon, to trade directly with 3x Confidant sideboard. I'm almost perfectly using a ruthless approach to templating, only veering away where I want to test alternate cards, not alternate effects.
Finally, I may be incorrect, but I think Jace is a functionally more powerful card than Infernal Contract. I don't see this as dangerous at all, considering Delver variants have played a copy, even maindeck, in the past.
Call me silly if you want, but if most of the delver variants are playing 12+ threats as a tempo plan I think it's wise to follow suit.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
