[MH3] Modern Horizions 3: Rotation Days Are Here Again

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Originally Posted by morgan_coke

nobody's arguing bauble is the end of scam, we're just dumbfounded that 4dogs continues to argue casting into it is a good idea, when its clearly not in every way conceivable.

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You won't ever agree on this one. It came up in the Dreadnought thread too.

4dogs also thinks Dress Down + Endurance/Fury is a combo spending 3 cards for draw 1+ 2-mana 3/x without the trigger. It's card disadvantage. But 4dogs thinks it's worth it to cheat out the pitch Elementals without the ETB trigger, just for the fast body. It will attack for 3 and win.

4dogs values the body over the ETB ability. It's still a Turn 1 3/2 Menace even with Bauble, just with 1 less Thoughtseize trigger.

Losing the Thoughtseize trigger makes it card disadvantage and more likely for opponent to have or find 1-mana removal. But you still get the fast 3/2. It's a disagreement over which is the better half of the elementals: the ability or the body.

https://i.imgur.com/0zmOW9C.jpeg

Let's talk about this instead.

Copy a dead Dark Depth is obvious.
Copying a dead Omniscience could be a line if your hand has Emrakul or something.

As long as you're not looking to tap whatever Shifting Woodland becomes, you only need 1 other green mana source.

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Originally Posted by Purple Blood

If you are 2-0ing yourself so you can then 2-1 me, I am happy with that. First, you are down cards on that exchange. Second, you used a Reanimate on a lesser target rather than something that actually threatens to end the game. A 3/2 dies to everything body is not concerning. Besides that, you wasted 3 cards to Thoughtseize me.

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Just because you keep repeating the same garbage won't make it right.
Not 2-0.
Not down cards.
Not a lesser target.
Not just a thought seize.
You want to talk about disadvantage, you're arguments are oh-for-four against reality.

Have you just never played against UB scam? it's ok if you haven't. It was more of a modern thing until recently.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

https://i.imgur.com/0zmOW9C.jpeg

Let's talk about this instead.

Copy a dead Dark Depth is obvious.
Copying a dead Omniscience could be a line if your hand has Emrakul or something.

As long as you're not looking to tap whatever Shifting Woodland becomes, you only need 1 other green mana source.

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Speaking of dreadnought...

The Bant lists could support 1 copy to copy Uro/Dreadnought & attack. But it needs 5 lands in play and risks ETB tapped, so more than 1 copy seems bad.

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Just because you keep repeating the same garbage won't make it right.
Not 2-0.
Not down cards.
Not a lesser target.
Not just a thought seize.
You want to talk about disadvantage, you're arguments are oh-for-four against reality.

Have you just never played against UB scam? it's ok if you haven't. It was more of a modern thing until recently.

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The initial play i.e. getting your pitched Grief countered, is a 0-2. You then follow that up with a Reanimate on a Grief, which is a 2-1. You end up down cards because you spent 4 cards to get a Thoughtseize and a 3/2 i.e. basic math.

I'm not saying its a useless play or that Bauble invalidates the Scam deck. I'm saying Bauble can and will be boarded in against Scam and it moves the interaction from completely back breaking to something about even. It also invalidates alternative casting cost of other cards they may play such as Daze, Unmask, Force of Will, Snuff Out, Surgical. In short, a strong card.

Ultimately, I still don't think it will be very common for people to pitch into Bauble just to Reanimate. Dumping half your hand to take 1 card and get an easily removable body does not seem like a winning line most of the time. But hey, maybe I'm wrong and you can ride that 3/2 all the way home. As FTW said, agree to disagree.

https://i.redd.it/ivd9rz9qa02d1.png

https://i.redd.it/9fu8r017y62d1.png

Do these start making an Energy package worth exploring?

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Originally Posted by FTW

The Bant lists could support 1 copy to copy Uro/Dreadnought & attack. But it needs 5 lands in play and risks ETB tapped, so more than 1 copy seems bad.

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4. It doesn't need to tap

Amped Raptor looks like a good way to cast the 0c Suspend cards without using cascade.

Harder to do with Raptor because you can't do the deck building mana cost cheat cascade can do. But if you have a T1 energy producer like the new Burn spell you can cheat in a 3/4 mana spell on T2. Dunno if that makes it worth playing semi-subpar cards for that interaction.

I mean, yeah copying a dead Dreadnought is fine if you have 4 lands plus this.
I was thinking more some number of more direct "I win the game" type of permanents that don't involve the target permanent attacking directly.
Tap this for green, tap a Tropical Island and Ancient Tomb, Shifting Woodlands becomes a tapped copy of Omniscience, play Emrakul from hand.

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/s...usemarkovf.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/s...usneonatef.jpg

In the right deck that can gain enough life, this card can nuke instantly with its PW side. Question is what would be the best shell for it.

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/emperorofbones.jpg

Maindeckable GY hate isn't too shabby and has somewhat of a Sneak Attack angle with Agatha's Soul Cauldron. Aside from that, it can get really silly with cards that use the +1/+1 counters as a resource. E.g. if you exile Walking Ballista with Cauldron, you can shoot any counters on Emperor, reload two counters for 1B, shoot them again, reload for 1B, etc.

Given how all these cards are cheap and good on their own, I would keep my eye on that.

Edit #2: Apparently the fancy combo with Phyrexian Devourer and Soul Cauldron doesn't work due to rule 607, linked abilties. So no army summoned from the library.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

I mean, yeah copying a dead Dreadnought is fine if you have 4 lands plus this.
I was thinking more some number of more direct "I win the game" type of permanents that don't involve the target permanent attacking directly.
Tap this for green, tap a Tropical Island and Ancient Tomb, Shifting Woodlands becomes a tapped copy of Omniscience, play Emrakul from hand.

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Just copy Saga. It's a better 1x than Stage for this purpose, with less timing restrictions; no need for Saga + copy land to be in play simultaneously.

It does open up new lines for UG OmniTell. If they don't have Show and Tell, they can still put Omniscience *uncounterably* into play with:
SurveilDual -> mill Omni
2GG: make tapped Omni copy

That only needs Sol Land + UG dual + Woodland in play to go off, without casting spells. (Well cantrips to set up the top, but nobody is Forcing Ponder)

Seems good?

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

4. It doesn't need to tap

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Until of end of turn, so if you want that Dreadnought to attack then you need 5 lands.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

I mean, yeah copying a dead Dreadnought is fine if you have 4 lands plus this.
I was thinking more some number of more direct "I win the game" type of permanents that don't involve the target permanent attacking directly.
Tap this for green, tap a Tropical Island and Ancient Tomb, Shifting Woodlands becomes a tapped copy of Omniscience, play Emrakul from hand.

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This is a lot of setup and like most of the other ideas I’ve seen for the card, I’m wondering what incentive people have to jump through those hoops when there’s a much easier way to slot it into an existing deck where it can cheaply and recurringly just make 20/20 flying indestructibles

For Dreadnought it's a lot of hoops.

For UG OmniTell it's a land they can easily play as a 1-of or 2-of that makes uncounterable Omniscience without needing to find or resolve Show and Tell. That seems big for a land slot.

To make a Dark Depths copy with 0 counters it's a decent but slow backup plan. Lands can easily run it but may struggle to get Delirium. GW Depths might? You could Crop Rot/Reclaimer/Knight your Depths into this in response to Wasteland

For Delirium, I'm assuming Life from the Loam is involved, and you'd end up with Uza's Saga (Enchantment Land), Life from the Loam (Sorcery) and either an Instant like Crop Rotation, any Artifact, maybe even Dryad Arbor as a creature. I'm not advocating it as a hard plan A, but I would not sleep on it, people will get got by this card

Though thinking about it if you want a hard plan A, if your opening hand is Shifting Woodlands, Lion's Eye Diamond, Dark Depths, either Elvish Spirit Guide or Louts Petal, and among the other 3 cards you had 2 other types, like Creature Instant Sorcery or Enchantment, you'd be able to make Marit Lage on turn 1. This is currently possible with Dark Ritual and Vampire Hexmage, but is transparent and would not survive a Force check. This would require at minimum casting one spell (Lion's Eye Diamond) and if they don't counter that, you can play Shifting Woodlands as land for turn, pitch ESG, sac LED and the 20/20 is in play.

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Originally Posted by Barook

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/s...usemarkovf.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/s...usneonatef.jpg

In the right deck that can gain enough life, this card can nuke instantly with its PW side. Question is what would be the best shell for it.

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/emperorofbones.jpg

Maindeckable GY hate isn't too shabby and has somewhat of a Sneak Attack angle with Agatha's Soul Cauldron. Aside from that, it can get really silly with cards that use the +1/+1 counters as a resource. E.g. if you exile Walking Ballista with Cauldron, you can shoot any counters on Emperor, reload two counters for 1B, shoot them again, reload for 1B, etc.

Given how all these cards are cheap and good on their own, I would keep my eye on that.

Edit #2: Apparently the fancy combo with Phyrexian Devourer and Soul Cauldron doesn't work due to rule 607, linked abilities. So no army summoned from the library.

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Sorin is an incredible finisher for Life.dec, and he can be put in play with Vial on the turn they go off. I mean, gaining the infinite life was never that decks problem, killing the opponent easily and quickly was. Sorin very neatly solves that, far better than any other options we've seen, and as a 2 mana, 1 power creature he fits in with everything else the deck is doing already.

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Originally Posted by Barook

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/sorinofhousemarkovf.jpg http://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/s...usneonatef.jpg

In the right deck that can gain enough life, this card can nuke instantly with its PW side. Question is what would be the best shell for it.

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There's dopey stuff like Ad Nauseam -> Children of Korlis plus Sorin of House Markov, but that's clearly win-more at best. It's hard to come up with a scenario where a deck wouldn't just win the game instead of gaining massive life. I think the closest thing to a legacy deck with a life gain game plan is Soul Sisters in modern.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

This is a lot of setup and like most of the other ideas I’ve seen for the card, I’m wondering what incentive people have to jump through those hoops ...

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I wonder whether shifting woodlands could make sense as a 1 or 2 of in a mono-green deck like Elves! where the down side ought to be pretty minimal and there's decent potential for up side.

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Originally Posted by rufus

There's dopey stuff like Ad Nauseam -> Children of Korlis plus Sorin of House Markov, but that's clearly win-more at best. It's hard to come up with a scenario where a deck wouldn't just win the game instead of gaining massive life. I think the closest thing to a legacy deck with a life gain game plan is Soul Sisters in modern.

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I'm talking about the old school clerics versions style. Putting Sorin in that deck is basically free from a deck building perspective and it provides an instant win button.

For examples see:

https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/lifedec-3/

and

https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/life-dec...re-koenig-2334

and

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1394231#paper

The win conditions are garbage like Felidar Sovereign, Doran, the Siege Tower and Test of Endurance. It's why that style of deck fell out of favor, even with the tutor packages from Living Wish and Eladamri's Call. Put Sorin in there and it's a whole new ballgame.

The framework of those decks was pretty solid with disruption from dudes similar to Death and Taxes plan, and tons of tutors and redundancy for the combo, it just never had a good way to win the game after it combo'd off.

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Originally Posted by FTW

For Dreadnought it's a lot of hoops.

For UG OmniTell it's a land they can easily play as a 1-of or 2-of that makes uncounterable Omniscience without needing to find or resolve Show and Tell. That seems big for a land slot.

To make a Dark Depths copy with 0 counters it's a decent but slow backup plan. Lands can easily run it but may struggle to get Delirium. GW Depths might? You could Crop Rot/Reclaimer/Knight your Depths into this in response to Wasteland

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It is vastly easier for lands to set this up than Show and Tell, both in terms of getting the target in the yard and in terms of getting Delirium, with the land being on color in the mean time and easier to etb untapped, easier to get it back in the face of Wasteland, and not needing another setup piece for payoff since you just instantly get the 20/20. And if they answer it it’s easier to get back.

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Originally Posted by rufus

I wonder whether shifting woodlands could make sense as a 1 or 2 of in a mono-green deck like Elves! where the down side ought to be pretty minimal and there's decent potential for up side.

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Delirium is hard to get in elves, as are worthwhile graveyard targets, especially since this doesn’t interact with Craterhoof

This could fit in my esper enchantress well.

2B
Enchantment
When ~ ETBs or you draw 3 cards, amass 3

Turns off sarcomancy life loss, turns on lifelink from dreadhorde invasion.

Birthing Ritual
Enchantment
1G

At the beginning of your end step you may look at the top 7 cards of your library, then sacrifice a creature, and put a creature from among those cards with CMC = X+1 or less into play where X is the CMC of the sacrificed creature.


Kind of like Survival, Birthing Pod, and Food Chain got drunk one night and had a baby. Definitely playable in a lot of decks. Multiples will stack, too.

This bird fucks:

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/naduwingedwisdom.jpg

Aside from being a fat 3/4 flyer for 3 mana which is GSZ-able and pitches to Force, it gets incredible stupid with Breakfast-style cards since it also counts your spells and abilities. Thus you can farm two cards per turn per creature. Shuko can draw you two cards per creature. Kor creatures can also farm cards during your opponent's turn. Bird and one Kor creature already means 4 cards on your turn and another 4 cards on their turn - and that's just with those two. Any additional creature gives another 4 cards per turn cycle.

It's worth mentioning that the land it puts into are untapped. And it's a Wizard, if that's relevant.

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Originally Posted by Barook

This bird fucks:

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/naduwingedwisdom.jpg

...Bird and one Kor creature already means 4 cards on your turn and another 4 cards on their turn - and that's just with those two...

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I imagine that playing another copy of the bird gives each creature new copy of the ability and gives another 2 cards per creature. I'm not sure that the opponent is going to have any turns for you draw cards on once it starts going off.

I think it'll see more play in fair decks as a Leovold draw effect.

In Breakfast, if you have Shuko, which is better
1UG - Draw 2-4 extra cards per turn
1U - Win the game

Maybe it could work as a plan C if you can't get Illusionist or Kaldra.

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Originally Posted by FTW

I think it'll see more play in fair decks as a Leovold draw effect.

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Bird can be found with GSZ, Shuko can be found via Saga. That's a pretty low opportunity cost, given how strong the combo is.

Edit:

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Originally Posted by FTW

1UG - Draw 2-4 extra cards per turn
1U - Win the game

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On second thought, the bird could draw you your entire library while putting your entire land mana base into play untapped if your deck is built around it. You could play a bunch of 0 mana creatures (or more realistically, just cheap creatures since you're going to get more untapped lands over time anyway) and keep going. Chances are that you aren't going to stay at only 2-4 cards a turn once you assemble the combo because every other creature put into play means two extra cards (while giving you more "Free Explores" than Alex Bertoncini could ever use).

Edit #2:
Blinking effects like Essence Flux and Ephemerate on the bird should be able to completely reset the bird, thus giving you another set of draws for your entire creature base. Throw in the pitch elementals for the full scam experience and you've got something interesting to work with. Question is whether you want to go Bant for Ephemerate, Solitude and Kor creatures or go Bug for the black scam package including reanimate + Grief and Satoru for more extra draw.

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Originally Posted by Barook

...
Edit #2:
Blinking effects like Essence Flux and Ephemerate on the bird should be able to completely reset the bird, thus giving you another set of draws for your entire creature base. Throw in the pitch elementals for the full scam experience and you've got something interesting to work with. Question is whether you want to go Bant for Ephemerate, Solitude and Kor creatures or go Bug for the black scam package including reanimate + Grief and Satoru for more extra draw.

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There are also token engines like Scute Swarm or Field of the Dead. It's not hard to end the game quickly with infinite card draw and infinite untapped lands.

Yeah, there are many ways to build around it and go off.

But are those cards good with Breakfast cards (without Bird)? It's a big deviation from the shell. So you'd have to decide which is the better Plan A and which is a backup.

1U Cephalid Illusionist is a good Plan A. Costs less. Needs fewer slots & less to go right to go off. The problem is not that Bird doesn't work, but that Breakfast already wins with fewer resources.

So then Bird is probably a backup value plan (in a deck that doesn't normally want green mana or GSZ).

You could try a separate UGx combo deck build around Bird + Shuko and these enablers to draw your deck. It's not weak to grave hate at least.

What's the Breakfast Shell now?

3-4 Urza's Saga
2-4 Shuko
4 Cephalid Illusionist
3-4 Nomads en-Kor
3 Narcomoeba
1 Thassa's Oracle
1 Dread Return

The usual blue shell

4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
2-3 Ponder

Probably need at least 4 other protection spells - either Counters, discard or Silence.

Probably about 15 Lands?

That's around 45-49

Can you really fit in another shell around Nadu in 15-11 Cards?

I guess the smallest "shell" left would be:

3-4 Nadu
3-4 GSZ
1 Arbor Dryad
2-3 GSZ targets

Is that better than traditional Breakfast with SFM or splashing black for Bowmasters?

Flashing Fleshscraper 2C
Creature - Eldrazi Drone (Uncommon)
Whenever you cast a colorless spell, create a 0/1 colorless Eldrazi Spawn creature token with "Sacrifice this creature: Add C."
Whenever a colorless creature other than Flashing Fleshscraper enters the battlefield under your control, Flash Fleshscraper deals 1 damage to each opponent.
2/2

This looks potentially broken as well . . . even just with Baubles, makes them add 1 mana and ping an opponent. Start casting Ornithopters, they ping opponent for 2 and add 1 mana . . . and I'm sure there's combo's out there as well (edit - Cloudstone Curio and Endless One)

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Originally Posted by Cire

(edit - Cloudstone Curio and Endless One)

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Eye of Ugin can also lead lead to cost-free Eldrazi Mimics. Or just two Flashing Fleshscrapers.

Given the amount of cast triggers the new Eldrazi have, Cloudstone Curio might not be the worst idea, especially since we have access to Eye of Ugin. Although I dislike that the Spawn gets created on casting, thus requiring another creature to start Curio bounce loop. Edit: I'm dumb - you can bounce the Fleshscraper and then cast it with the C to bounce the Endless One/Mimic to repeat the loop while dealing two pings per cycle.

Aside from Mimic, Endless One and Flashing Fleshscrapers, new cards I would consider:

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/sowingmycospawn.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/nulldrifter.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/thiefofexistence.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/w...battlemage.jpg

Other cards that might be good in this shell: Thought-Knot Seer and maybe Bearer of Silence, although the new Battlemage with its bounce kicker might be enough to deal with most creatures.

It's worth noting that Mycospawn not only is able to fetch Eye of Ugin, but it's also "free" if Eye and Fleshscraper are already in play since Spawn + the untapped green Land it fetches can pay for the :1::g: left. You could basically bounce it as long as you can pull green-producing lands out of your deck.

Edit #2: I wonder how heavy the deck should lean into actual green mana instead of Tribal green mana (aside from Yavimaya, which you should run as 1-2 off anyway due to Eye). Ancient Stirrings seems like a perfect card for the build, as it can find lands, Eldrazi or even Cloudstone Curio. It would be a great way to supplement Once Upon a Time (although this one can't find artifacts, but can find ESG). That would be up to 8 digging spells, which sounds great, but juggling that mana base sounds like a nightmare.

Since the deck wants Sol Lands, you might want Chalice, so Ancient Stirrings could be awkward.


//Lands: 23
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Boseiju, Who Endures
2 Forest

//Colorless Eldrazi Creatures: 30
4 Endless One
4 It That Heralds the End
4 Wastescape Battlemage
4 Glaring Fleshscraper
4 Thief of Existence
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Sowing Mycospawn
3 Nulldrifter

//Artifacts: 7
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Cloudstone Curio

//SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Warping Wail
2 Dismember
3 Disruptor Flute


Could also consider Karn TGC, The One Ring, Once Upon A Time.

Curio + Fleshscraper is an infinite kill with:
- Endless One X=1
- It that Heralds/Battlemage + Eye of Ugin

Mycospawn tutors for Eye

Chalice counters StP & Bolt

I want there to be enough strong 7cc/8cc Eldrazi printed for Conduit of Ruin to be playable in some format, even if its just Modern E Tron.

Nulldrifter is a solid start.

While Green Eldrazi and Fleshwarper Looks nice i spin around with Linebreaker which is really bonkers in terms of aggro.

Something like this:

Main (60)
4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 It That Heralds the End
4 Eldrazi Linebreaker
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Blight Herder
4 Devourer of Destiny

4 Sundering Eruption // Volcanic Fissure
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Unlicensed Hearse

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin

Sideboard (15)
3 Faerie Macabre
3 "Kozilek's Command"
3 Kozilek's Return
2 Mindbreak Trap
4 Disruptor Flute

It has the option to go wide and offers a lot of aggro and enough disruption for the current Meta. Disruptor Flute seems also strong with Solland+ Flash, cause it could hit Wasteland ans Combo Cards, never really dead. Devourer of Destiny is very strong too!

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Originally Posted by MD.Ghost

While Green Eldrazi and Fleshwarper Looks nice i spin around with Linebreaker which is really bonkers in terms of aggro.

Something like this:

Main (60)
4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 It That Heralds the End
4 Eldrazi Linebreaker
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Blight Herder
4 Devourer of Destiny

4 Sundering Eruption // Volcanic Fissure
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Unlicensed Hearse

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin

Sideboard (15)
3 Faerie Macabre
3 "Kozilek's Command"
3 Kozilek's Return
2 Mindbreak Trap
4 Disruptor Flute

It has the option to go wide and offers a lot of aggro and enough disruption for the current Meta. Disruptor Flute seems also strong with Solland+ Flash, cause it could hit Wasteland ans Combo Cards, never really dead. Devourer of Destiny is very strong too!

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The red one is strong for Aggro builds, no doubt, but it doesn't really solve issues against certain permanent types like problematic lands. At the very least, I would consider Sowing Mycospawn. Not only can it ramp, it can grab utility lands in the 75 like Karakas, Wastes or a single Wasteland if you need to kill a land asap. That it can deal with enemy lands once kicker is available is just the icing on the cake.

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Originally Posted by Barook

The red one is strong for Aggro builds, no doubt, but it doesn't really solve issues against certain permanent types like problematic lands. At the very least, I would consider Sowing Mycospawn. Not only can it ramp, it can grab utility lands in the 75 like Karakas, Wastes or a single Wasteland if you need to kill a land asap. That it can deal with enemy lands once kicker is available is just the icing on the cake.

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No doubt the Green one with on Cast Trigger and untaped Land is strong too, but its a different build and in this case slower (2R vs 3G is a world of difference here) both have clearly pros and cons and at the end i only hope to see eldrazi at least viable again. Seems Wizard printed at least enough options to Tinker around ;)

P.s. the Red Land can also act as a Land destruction sorcery If really needed ;)