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Been slowly chipping away at these threads to get a better understanding of the current meta. While all of DTB's are solid, they don't interest me as far as building them. This deck raised an eyebrow though. It's got "Prosbloom" written all over it. Not so much as the win condition is concerned, but the efficiency of the engine is incredible. I like it.
I was shocked there were no Monoliths on any of the builds, but I guess they aren't neccesary...
I assume you mean Grim Monolith, which happens to be banned in Legacy. But your right it wouldnt be needed if they were legal.
D'oh! I need to go look at that ban list again. Oh well, at least this wasn't as bad as the Earthcraft debacle from 2 weeks ago.
"I don't know usually you won't have any mana producers and maybe only one card in hand after a first turn empty the warrens."
Unless you played a land, chrome mox, or drew into a SSG, Petal, or had a mana producer in hand. I too think that it is a little un-nesissary, but the SB itself allows for it.
Edit: like 3 people posted while I typed. Or I am blind.
I don't think Goblin War Strike is unnecessary. There are enough decks that can produce many creatures quickly (Ichorid, TES, IGGy/r, ...), but don't always do this first turn. So 2nd turn swing, 3rd turn Wish for GWS, then alpha strike can sometimes be the only chance to win if you went for EtW. And honestly, the odds aren't _that_ low you can do it on turn 3. I've drawn into quite a lot of hands with both Burning Wish and EtW lately.
I think that it's more important that Goblin Was Strike (GWS) kills a turn earlier before alot of hate comes down. May this hate be Plague, EE, Deed, ect... That's why its played.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brehn
My list at the moment:
Mana ( 42 )
1 Taiga
4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Seething Song
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
Wishes ( 4 )
4 Burning Wish
Kills ( 6 )
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens
Other ( 8 )
4 Serum Powder
4 Pyroblast
Side ( 15 )
4 Shattering Spree
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Simplify
1 Rough // Tumble
1 Cave-In
1 Reverent Silence
I only play 1 land, you kill much more/faster with the belcher, the problem is that when you pick a Land Grant when you have a land you cant to anything with it, but because you kill much more/faster, this is better in my opinion.
I also play 4 Serum Powders, i think they are very good in this deck, i have never had problems with them, sometimes i have even played them, cause i had 2 mana to much, it gives you a higher stormcount, and more mana in later turns if you need it. The only problem is to Topdeck them, but you also dont want to topdeck a kill when you need a mana source... I know you are going to say i should cut them,, but i won't do that ;).
I play 4 Pyroblast main, as minimal protection, they are much better then ReB, cause you can play them as stom count, on a non-blue spell.
I also play no black, cause you dont need it, the only thing why i like to play black is duress, without the black rituals its also good (whit the black rituals, you cant always play all your rituals, cause of wrong color mana...), and the Bayou isnt very good with your Belcher..
Then my SB, i want to play Dimishing Returns, maybe in the place of Reverent Silence ? I think thats the best thing to do.
If there is somethind strange about my SB, please say it, then i say why i play it this way.
Jip
ps. my english isnt very good
Edit: a question: is it better to board in 4 Spree's, or 3 Spree's and keep the 4th for a Burning Wish in the SB?
Of course you leave one Shattering Spree in the sideboard, so it will feels like you are playing 7 of them. (3 main board with 4 chances to wish for one)
In my limited experience, I found that Diminishing Returns is a really useful wish card.
On a smaller note, your number of kills is 7, not 6. (Excluding Burning Wishes)
Cut the Reverent Silence for a Diminishing Returns ?
Try Street Wraith in your Serum Powder slot. It makes it harder to mulligan rather than easier, but I've always found that the deck mulligans pretty well, and Wraith is not as terrible a topdeck.
The problem with Street Wraith is it makes mulliganning insane. Keeping a 6 mana source hand and a street wraith, it seems like suicide to me. The deck only plays 11 relevant spells. I think you're better off knowing what you're going to draw over a random card. Personally I think the Street Wraith slot should be Dark Ritual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lego_Army_Man
And i think the slot should be Serum Powder :smile: . I think black isn't good enough for this deck, without it is better (no Bayou for your belcher, and "never" wrong mana..).
Serum Powders is really great. And most of the time you do it with your begin hand, and dont topdeck very much.
Mvg
Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
Well.. the point of Street Wraith is to count it as mana. That example hand you pointed out I would ship in a heat beat. Street Wraith should be used to find mana sources, NOT win conditions. I'm going to start testing Serum Powder, but I just don't like the card that much personally.
But what of you count the SW as mana, an you can only combo with the mana that it should give you. Maybe the SW gives you a kill ;).
You can't really *count* street wraith as anything. You don't know what it'll be. You only have 1 or 2 lands of course, but the problem is that you don't know what the wraith is getting you for your 2 life. In your opening hand you need to see what everything would be, wraith doesnt let you do this. Also, people talk about playing it and making their deck realistically 56 cards, but then they build it as a 60 card deck. This is an odd deck, but thats still how the situation normally worksQuote:
Originally Posted by NANTUKO_SHADY
You generally count SW as a random card in your deck, but in a deck with 49 mana and 11 kill you can realistically count it as a mana source since the odds are that you'll end up drawing one off the top. However, if you have a hand of 5 mana, 1 kill and 1 sw you should keep it. the SW will most likely be mana and even if it's a kill you'll should be able to go off with 5 mana and a kill con in your hand.
Ok. Maybe I didn't make myself perfectly clear. SW is "generally" a mana source. OBV. you can't classify what the card will be EVERY single time. My point was to mulligan hands where there is a Street Wraith and mana accelerants.
I went to a tournament this weekend and why not share the knowledge...
35 people attending.
6 rounds of swiss.
Match 1 mono-green randomness
2-0
Took my time to combo second turn twice.
He didn't sideboard so I was feeling pretty safe.
Match 2 goblins
2-1
Game 1 is easy. Combo first turn for 12 tokens or something.
Game 2. I die because of first turn chalice (I had no mana sources left because of that) and first turn lackey.
Game 3. I can make just enough tokens turn 1 to kill him.
Match 3 loam variant
2-1
Game 1. easy kill with tokens
Game 2. I can make a lot of tokens, but because he used an engineered explosives to kill my first turn petal, I am quite sure he has pyroclasm or something so I decide to wait. I eventually can't find a belcher in time. I die just the turn before I can activate belcher.
Game 3. he resolves a pyrostatic pillar. eventually I can belch for 16 and because of fetches and his own pillar he dies...
Match 4 hanni-fish
Game 1. Win with tokens, altough he had force and I land granted, but I had 1 street wraith causing him to counter the wrong spell.
Game 2. I die because of stifle
Game 3. I start a hand with too little acceleration, but with two red blasts. I decide to keep. He resolves a meddling mage on empty the warrens. Eventually I decide to go. We have a little counter war and because I in can burning wish, sac LED and play tendrils for 20...
I think that the sideboarding plan for this kind of decks is sufficient.
I draw the next two rounds...
Top 8
Goblins
1-2
Altough I can't go off first turn I decide to keep. Eventually I make 12 tokens which was only enough because I was able to burning wish for goblin war strike.
Second game he plays a first turn chalice with lackey. Leaving me manaless. He kills me the turn before I would have been able to activate a belcher.
Third game.
I have to mulligan into 6. Leaving me a hand which is a little short of acceleration. I decide to keep. He has lackey, but only piledriver to follow up next turn. And of course chalice for zero. After two turns he sees a warchief and has another chalice (on 1). I can burning wish for cave-in and wipe the board. Next turn he has another warchief lackey and something else.
He also wanted to resolve another chalice at 0 but that was obviously countered by his other chalice...
Conclusions:
Anything that attacks your artifact mana base is practically instant doom. Because you have to play 3-4 cards sometimes to kill them. Leaving you at nothing.
I always seem to struggle game 2, even when the match-up should still be rather favorable (goblins, loam). On the other hand I won the match against hanni-fish, which was quite a surprise.
If there is anything in the cardpool that would make it easier to find a belcher, that would be great. In the whole tournament I used belcher only 1 time.
@ Serum Powder
Serum Powder may nice when goldfishing at home or playing against 90% matchups but what about playing against decks with FOW etc.?
You win the die roll, take another seven with Serum Powder and keep the new seven. Your opponent sees your removed cards and knows that he should better mull to a Force to survive the first turn.
This deck is about explosive first and second turn plays smashing the opponent before he even knows what hit him. But Serum Powder is like: I tell you what I play and get another seven for it OK?
And if something goes wrong with your combo or you still have to hold a bad hand this card is the most awful topdeck you could have.
@Street Wraith
Street Wraith, Dark Ritual and even the shitty Serum Powder are in the same slot. So please people don't come up with the same situation of six mana sources + X again and again. If you have six + SW you mulligan it just like any other hand without a kill condition.
Wraith is definately playable but I think the black list with Ritual and Bayou is better. Dark Ritual "is a hell of a drug" and you can try to kill a wounded opponent with tendrils when there is no LED available. The black list can also play Duress instead of Pyroblasts in the board as it is much better to handle the hate you face. Sure it can't handle Meddling Mages but that's why Cave-In and Pyroclasm are in the board.
Yes, but you lose very many matches cause of 2 land inclusive a Bayou. I play only 1 land, a Taiga, so your Belcher kill almost anytime. Its very horrible to do not enough damage with Belcher. And what i've said a different times now, 3 colors is to much, with these Rituals. But yes, duress is Very good, but not because of that card i make the splash (the rest of the cards dont make it better...).
But yes, what you say about FoW and Powder is true...
I'm actually playing SW instead of Desperate Ritual. Is that a mistake?
If you're playing Dark Ritual it might work but I see no reason to include Dark Ritual and cut Desperate Ritual then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfrago
Ok, i play the SW at the moment. When you Goldfish it's not as good as Powders, but it isnt bad. And against deck with FoW(/Daze) its not so smart to play Powder, thanks for the tip :).
Yes, I'm playing Dark Ritual. I cut Desperate Ritual becouse I wanted to play SW, so i decided to cut the worst of the rituals.And Desperate sucks (well maybe not aganist CotV).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shugyosha
Hello.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shugyosha
I've been thinking, I think i better play Powder instead of SW. In the swiss you don't see ***** (deck with counters and a clock) very much, in the T8 you see them much more, but then you may see each others decklist, so the Powders arent a problem. I think in the swiss here normally 2-3 of the 5 decks you play against play FoW. And you don't begin the first game always with Powder. You keep your hand a little bit faster. And in al the games in the swiss, its much better. So, 2-3 games of the 10-15 games its maybe not so good.... Also, if you start, you have to say first of you keep your hand (or is it is you start the other has to say first ?), so the half of the games the other has to say first if he keeps (with or without FoW) and then you can say if you Mull with the Powder. And there is also the option to Mull normal, with a Powder in your hand. I think if you play the build with Powder, it's good to look before the tournament what people are playing (if you're good in remembering that).
yes, i gonna play them again i think.
Mvg
EDIT: After a lot of testing, just playing 4 SW instead of 4 Serum Powder
i think street wraith should be main pyroblasts, this deck gets wipped by FOW daze and you could stop that with pyroblast main
There are many builds who already play both ;).
Mvg
T_B that card is one of the worst sideboard options i have heard in awhile you will usually win afer a turn one empty the warrens unless your opponent has pyroclasm the rules about english and grammer suck on this site some of us wish not to speak english and although aour country choses to speak english some small area like this chose not too,you should abandon the policy it really sucks as most of you are from america you don't understand!
Following the rules about grammar is not an option. We expect you to avoid run-on sentences like the one found in this post. Make an attempt at punctuating properly or post on another site. Warning issued.
-PR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatthehat
If you don't like the rules, then don't post. I'm sure there are Magic Forums in Ireland. It is just annoying for people to have to actually think and decipher words and sentences just to understand what you are trying to say. Also, poor spelling and grammar makes it look like you don't know what you are talking about. I'm not bagging on you for being Irish, but you need to understand if they go easy on typos and fragment sentences etc. , the boards will turn into baby scratches before you know it.
Have you considered playing 4 tarmogoyfs in the main?
It'd help you considerably against something, probably.
And every other bugger is.
Come on, this a Fast combo deck!!! With the Goyf, you only become slower, sure you dont play him!!
I really hate it that people would play Goyf in each deck,, but in combo (ok, CephalidBreakfast plays it... but with another reason).
Mvg
Quote:
Originally Posted by shteev
Umm... worst idea ever? Belcher already crushes Aggro. And as for Threshold, we lose to their counter magic, not their beaters. I don't ever see myself wishing Goyf was in my opening hand.
At least it's better than Storm Entity.
how about channel in place of 3 SWs and 1 SB?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DURESSyou92
Perhaps you're not serious. Check out banned list first.
I found myself running disruption cards like REB instead of SW, just because I hate mulling with SWs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatthehat
Alright, to defend myself (After reading it 3 times) I think that it is a needed SB card. With lots of goblins on the board, things like moat, Ghostly prison, and Propiganda can stop your attack. Also, with exess mana, you can win the turn earlier.
The point my post tried to make was that you need to have 3 mana to wish + GWS. This makes it quite difficult, and usually includes a +1 rit, and 2 starying rits (Land/chrome Mox) Situational, but the SB is generally wish cards and blasts, so it should be ok.
I wish. That would push the deck into ridiculousness.Quote:
Originally Posted by DURESSyou92
No, no its not.Quote:
Originally Posted by legacyplayer0
What do you guys think about this list here?
//Lands
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
//Kill
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens
//Rest
4 Street Wraith
4 Wild Cantor
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Land Grant
4 Seething Song
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
//Tutor
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
//SB
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Cave-In
1 Hull Breach
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Overmaster
4 Red Elemental Blast
The Diminishing Returns and Ill-Gotten Gains are just so powerful, if you have multiple LEDs online.
Sometimes i do the Tendrils kill aswell - why? Because i can!
The Goblin War Strike just makes just even faster and with Duress you try to avoid counters.
MfG Fred
I think black isnt good enough, with the main reason that Bayou isnt a mountain, and 1 land is much better (i have already said other reasons before..).
Pyroblast is much better than Red Elemental Blast, cause you can play it on a non blue spell/permanent for storm.
Your SB is very nice, but i like to play 4 Xantid Swarm, cause its the best answer the counter...
4 Spree is also very good, you can board in 3 and leave 1 for a Wish against CotV/Trinisphere/etc.
Mvg