What he said. There's a Treefolk deck in Legacy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
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What he said. There's a Treefolk deck in Legacy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
Lol. Look what you've started, Don. Seriously, though, Don's Treefolk deck pretty much knocks Dragon Stompy down and takes its lunch money. It's kinda funny.
I assume if you play a treefolk deck you roll over laughing, and scoop. Not that that'll ever happen in a tournament. Volt, let me ask you: Would you ever play that treefolk deck in a real tournament?
Treefolk deck? Are you guys talking that God-awful VAKA DORANZ deck that plagued the N&D a few months back?
Nah, it is a different one. Looks solid. Don says he will play it in a real touney, so it is not a joke or anything.
.
Dragon Stompy has and always has had a problem with tier 6 decks. Life goes on.
Decks like Solidarity and Landstill slaughter random jank, Dragon Stompy slaughters high tier decks and scoops to random jank.
Dragon Stompy and Faerie Stompy ask the opponent certain questions:
"Do you play a low curve and lose against Chalice or Trinisphere?"
"Will my Turn 1 Fattie and Turn 2 Fattie kill you before you find your solutions?"
(DS): "Do you play many Nonbasics and lose against Moon Effects?
(FS): "Do you play one key spell and lose against Force of Will?"
So if the opponent says "No" to all of these questions, like for example a T2 Mono White or Mono Black control deck with 20+ Basic-lands, a curve starting at 2 (evoke Shriekmaw) and 16+ Removal spells you will just get slaughtered. But on the other hand, decks like ******** or Storm Combo, who answer "Yes" to many of these questions, will have a hard time against DS and FS.
So when playing DS you will have to accept to lose against the worst randomness, if it happens to be immune to your questions.
hello it's the first time i post on this site because in my beautiful country (france :laugh: ) we got the same type of site (legacy-france)
but there's no topic on the french site
so i was running the deck at Mol Belgium Championship, a big event with 129 players and 7 rounds
i made top 8, then top 4 with 5/1/1, (intentional draw at 7th round) and loose against the winner, a Gbw aggro Loam,on semi final
here's my list:
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
10 mountains 18 lands
4 arc-slogger
4 SSG
4 magus of moon
4 rakdos pit dragon
4 gathan riders 20 creatures
4 CotV
4 trinisphere :cool:
4 blood moon
4 chrome mox
3 powder keg :cool:
3 seethin song 22 spells
60MD
1 EE
3 tephraderm :frown:
4 pyrokinesis
2 pyroclasm
3 shatering spree
2 anarchy
15 SB
first thing i have too say is i really regret the 3 slot of tephraderm on SB, was such a mistake (included them agains terravore,multiple tarmogoyfs,and multiple blockers), 3 tormod's crypt woul be really better
and certainly i'll put +1 seething song and -1trini to include it on SB instead of EE
know i'v read all this topic and i really don't understand why everyone play the deck as an aggro deck
the deck is named "dragon stompy" so bad name! because it's not an aggro deck but a stax deck, so red stax, or moon stompy should be a better name ^^
well for me the deck is awesome at now on the metagame because , control or aggro/control, running 3+ colors, and so much spells with CC=1 or 2,
so the deck got the clock with CotV,and trinisphere (such a pretty good anti FOW/daze moreover!!!)
the deck got one combo: magus of the moon
text of magus:
"your opponent can't plays any spells,your opponent loses 2 life each of your turns" :laugh:
i would say the deck runs 19 stax cards:
4 3S
4 COTV
8 moon
3 powder keg
-moon are autowin against landstill, and thresh 3 or 4 colors (those decks so played on the metagame)
very good clock against loam (you fear the mox diamond)
-CotV at 1 or 2 is really anti format cards
-trini anti FOW/DAZE, clock for waiting the moon/CotV,MD auto win slot against storm combo deck
-powder keg , is the "coffee engin" of the deck, it's disrupt against the spells of creatures or artifact was played before you plays the CotV/trini (when you don't start, and your opponent mades a moongoose turn one,or tarmo, turn 2)
it's the best disrupt you own against creatures and artifact :multiple moongoose,or tarmo,or teravore,MD slot against ETW tokens,bridge from below tokens, mox diamond,activated man land,crucible,vial,vedalken etc.....
16 keys for turbo stax on first/second turn:
8 double colorless land
4 mox
4 SSG
20 kills
the creatures
creatures are only kills, i think running any equipment is such a mistake, because jitte on board alone is so bad, powder keg or trini on board is a good cloak
as we already know it, rakdos is the best kill, arc-slogger the sweeper effect,SSG could becomes a chump blockers or kill,gathan so strong tricks with helbent
about equipment:
1 mounth ago i was running 2 jitte and 3 sword on the list, the sword are so bad with hellbent, jitte not combo with CotV at 2
so to play jitte before the CotV=2 you need to run 4, and i think it's dead slot against ALL MU unless gobs
WH lox, gives you good tricks (life and evasion with trample) but 6 too play an equip' (a seething is not enough,not like the 5 cost of cast/equip of the sword) and no toughtness boost, moreover no protection (swords do it at well)
so for me the best equip you can run is the Grafted Wargear, 3 only to play, and makes your magus 5/4
but i think it's always a dead cards....
so why running 22 or 23 or more creatures, and jitte??
you loose against all monocolored aggro deck, which are your worst MU
(WW,MBA,gobs,stompy)
the deck can old against MBA,WW,and stompy with 3S and CotV
gobs have a so special mana curve, you'll keep your 8 3S,CotV only if you start at the G2 (it's to say always lol) then sided them out at G3
it's why the deck really need at least 6 cards on SB against gob (4 kynesis,2clasm, or 3/3 as you want)
moreover
you have a bad MU against monocolored aggro, because of the quantity of the creatures, wich will rape you, cause you cant' block all,
so if you got not enough blockers to old, equiped blockers won't be enough too, and powder keg would disrupt more creatures, more fastly than jitte, and all monoC aggro deck runs jitte (not gobs of course) and he will disrupt your jitte on MD with......jitte, and because he got the numbers for him, he'll take the advantage
so i really don't understand why some list doesn't runs any 3S on MD ! so good clock! the aggro deck won't be able to play 2 creatures per turns
and gobs too, because you'll disrupt the vial with keg on MD, and you run SS on SB(or ingot shewer,as you prefer)
i won't make a report in english, too difficult for me, but quickly
R1: aluren
i won 2/0
G1 :3S first turn
G2 magus first turn ^^
R2: 43 lands looool
G1 :magus turn 2, he succefully plays 2 gamble on disk, and play them 2 times, each times i played a magus or a blood moon,, what a skill lol!!
G2: i side in 3 SS, magus turn 1, he go for gamble and disk, but i can plays SS on it the turn after
R3: ichorid
G1: i rape him, 3S, then magus,then slogger =GG
G2: he was unlucky, he plays LED turns one, i plays keg turn one and sak it,i will defeat him with 3S and rakdos after long turn
R4: against high tide instant
a "the source" member
G1: slogger turn one......... skill again!
G2: amazingly unlucky!, he made 4 times remand on 2 different slogger for clock(FOW the first after 2 remand),i made CotC turn 1, so all his BeB are cuts,high tide too,
after the macth i saw his deck and SB, didn't saw any snap on MD, and no Hurkyl's Recall, strange for a wish deck....
R5: dragon stompy
all my rounds i finished on the first people of the room, and take the time to watch the other first tables, i wonder because i never seen my opponent!
i understood why , he plays the same deck,and won more fastly than me LOL
G1: T1:me mountain go,him,city,mox,seething,slogger= no way GG
G2: i have a magus turn one i keep, because i acn cut is double colorless land
i play it, he makes ,land+mox+SSG+seething=slogger again
my god!!!
i had side of the 8 Cotv/3S +2 blood moon and side in the 4 kynesis,3 tephraderm,3SS against his equip
so funny to made the mirror!
R6:bayou aggro
i know the deck of my opponent i spyed him last round!
G1: i start, CotV T1,then moon Turn, he scooped Oo
G2: he start, made a thougtseize one 3S(i had moon too), i make moon turn one,then 3s, he scoop Oo
no macth
i'm at 5/0/1 i've got the best %oop Win of the tournament, so i decided to make draw ,my opponent was at 6/0/0, (the player wich goes to final with thresh) we play it for fun i loose 2/0
top 8 standings:
i'm 6th
the hight tide i beat is 8th
the other DS in 9th after make intentionnal draw against the high tide, i'm sorry for him, but it's so crazy, combo such a good MU, he didn't have to draw i think
top8 : TES
i know is deck, i won the toss
G1: mull at 6 and keep a magus turn 1
3s turn 3
then i'll top deck :
land/land/land/moon/land/moon/land/SSG/magus/SSG
my god!
the magus makes him down to 2 life when:
10 tokens on play when i top decked the first SSG , i keep my blockers, then i finally top decked a slogger, cast him and active GG
G2:mull at 6
3S first turn,then gathab, no way for him i won
top 4: against the aggro loam
i won the toss
G1: i made such a huge mistake, i keep my hand with
city/mox/SSG/magus/mox/land/Cotv
i goes to city+mox=magus , i keep the CotV to play it at 2 at second turn, what a mistake!!!!!!!
at his first turn he played mox,sword the magus,and wast the city
if i played CotV at O on my T1 it was GG for me
G2:i got a tephraderm T1, i play it,he will play mongrel/tarmo/terravore/terravore..... no way i die after trying to rape him with tephraderm,and 2 morphed gathan on play......
belgian people was really friendly, i'll be back next year!
for the deck, i try to find the solution against loam, i'm testing dead/gone on SB (good kisscool card),if morning tide can edit a pillage card with mana cost :2: R it will be include on SB or MD (sack the vial/crucible/mox/the basic land fecthed on resp' of the moons), the actual pillage is bad beacause of the :1: RR cost
Hey man, I saw you play the first top 8 game there, fun to see that deck in action. Congratulations, too!
hey jeanmarie,glad you found the source finally:tongue:
atm i am testing phyrexian furnace against loam ,why you ask me?well i had this plan in mind
1st turn furnace and you can start removing his gy(mainly lands,though it's the bottom card each time)
the terravore could be less of a threat then(i think)cause we can handle a 4/4terra,but not a 5/5 or not that eazy.
when the loam finally comes we can try to remove it,though it's a hard call cause he can still cycle a land in response,maybe it could be promising and maybe not,it needs some further investment and testing.
We are very pleased to have many new members from many different nations. Since we assume that English is your second language, we make some exceptions for grammar for foreign members. However, we do hope that you can at least use the shift-key to place the appropriate capitals in your post.
- thanks,
The Source
PS - And we're pretty sure that your English is 1000 times better than our French :wink:.
no problem I'll do so :)Quote:
We are very pleased to have many new members from many different nations. Since we assume that English is your second language, we make some exceptions for grammar for foreign members. However, we do hope that you can at least use the shift-key to place the appropriate capitals in your post
and about the grammar, sorry I do my best!
lol you saw the very great first game of the top 8 ,when magus mades alone 9 phases of attack alone? that was funny ^^Quote:
Hey man, I saw you play the first top 8 game there, fun to see that deck in action
hi Lesly,Quote:
atm i am testing phyrexian furnace against loam
I already seen this card on some SB of white stax
but I don't understand one thing:
text of furnace:Quote:
when the loam finally comes we can try to remove it,though it's a hard call cause he can still cycle a land in response,
T: Remove the BOTTOM card of target player's graveyard from the game.
1, Sacrifice Phyrexian Furnace: Remove target card in a graveyard from the game. Draw a card.
so it means you need, to play it turn 1,to activate the capacity of Furnace everyturn,and the LOAM player musn't have more than one cards trashed each turns,
hmm tell us if your test works good or not, but I'm not sure it should take the slot of tormod on SB
my 2 cents
Congrats Otter!
Unfortunately, with the rough writing, I'm not certain what some of your points are.
One theme I see repeated throughout your report that I can't agree with, or stress enough is scouting. This deck benefits more than any I've played by knowing what your opponent is playing. It has a much lower mulligan rate than one would think, and you can decrease it further by taking advantage of the time your blowouts give early. I have had matches where I actually was celebrating the win when pairings went up.
I agree that Keg is generically good, but I would run it in the sideboard. I actually include it in my "anti-Goblins" cards along with Pyrokenisis, though I don't agree that the matchup is anything but favorable for this deck. I would always run a full set of 'Kenisis before metagaming Pyroclasm, it just has way more useful applications in general.
I agree with the name being inappropriate, but so are a lot of them. Since TML III, there has been a set list only changing 4-10 cards though. So the name is a good identifier, which is the most important thing. I also agree that Crypts are needed in the SB, and that Tephraderm is in most cases sub-optimal. With his removal though, you will most likely need to beef up your creature count either in the main deck or SB.
I disagree that Moncolor Aggro is the worst matchups. Mid-range Aggro, and non-Blue Board Control are the worst. Survival, "True" Stax decks, and GB(w) "Trainwreck" types being the most prominent examples. I also disagree that 8 Moons make Landstill a Bye. There are many who still run U/W only, or a possible minor third spash that are very difficult.
It is these matchups that you need equipment in more than any other, in which I disagree with your point the most. I can't comment on what combination might be best, as your meta, and creature package determine that. But cutting it entirely is basically asking to lose to decks like Landstill and Survival. While your threat density is best served by replacing these Equipments with creatures against Combo and most Aggro, you will never have more threats than these decks have removal....and access to it. It also forces a split focus for these decks. Do they use there artifact destruction on the Chalice@2 that has been slowing them down? Or do they blow up the SoFI you have waiting to add four damage to the next swing you get? Since so many of these matchups become attrition wars, you have to make every creature you cast an immediate threat. With Equipment you can do this, and even Elgin decks cannot go 1-for-1 indefinately.
Thank you very much for your report. It is strange to see how popular this deck is in France in comparison to here. So many decks now are various derivitives of Aggro-Tempo Counter/Top that I can't even find test games anymore. Loam decks that you see in Europe are far more challenging matchups, and with that meta I would run 8 Moons as well.
Bienvenue à TheSource!!
Je suis hésitant de l'absence des équipement. Jitte, c'est un must!
Anyway, I wouldn't NOT want a situation in which I couldn't slap a Jitte or a Warhammer on my Hellbented dragon (HAWT).
8 Blood Moons is a lot in one deck, it seems that it is TOO many. I've been running 4x magus and 2x Blood moon in Main, and 2 more in SB.
Any thought about having some sort of burn in the deck? I know Demonfire has been brought up, but what about Fireblast. I wouldn't put in LBolt, because we have CotV set at 1 a lot of times.
Actually, it's not really a "stax deck" either. Dragon Stompy is better described as an aggro-prison deck. It's goal is to drop turn one lock pieces (moon, chalice, or trinisphere) followed by turn two threats. The turn two threats put the opponent on a short clock, giving them only a few turns to find an answer to your lock components or die to your big beaters.Quote:
the deck is named "dragon stompy" so bad name! because it's not an aggro deck but a stax deck, so red stax, or moon stompy should be a better name
Dragon Stompy doesn't gun for a hard-lock like stax (with smokestack, crucible, and trinisphere), but for a soft-lock that hinders the ability of the opponent to go about their normal game plan while dragons, sloggers, and raiders beat face.
The best deck I can think of to compare Dragon Stompy to would be the old 5/3 workshop aggro decks of vintage. There isn't much in legacy (or any other format for that matter) that really parallels the game-plan of Dragon Stompy quite as well.
my plan whas to play furnace and crypt,on the otehr hand,boarding in 7cards might be just overkill(what do we get out?i guess seething song could go?probably in my case 3powder keg also?)
dunno,i'll test it a bit and i'll post my results later this week.
Felicitation sur T4! Alors ecrire en francais avec du bon grammair ca va? Trop drole, ma faute je sais mon francais ecrit est trop mal! Mais sans blague votre englais est trop bein, je suis vachement surpris que les mondes se plein! S'il vous plait poste ou PM moi le link du site francais, j'aimerais bein le voire.
What was anarchy in your sideboard for?
Sorry, we're an American site and most of us are monolingual. English por favor.
-PR
Rift Bolt seems to be better like LBolt because of CotV sure.Quote:
Any thought about having some sort of burn in the deck? I know Demonfire has been brought up, but what about Fireblast. I wouldn't put in LBolt, because we have CotV set at 1 a lot of times.
Fireblast ... with moon why not, but whythout, I fear about my mountain :/
What about earth quake, it's burning and make a reset vs gob... ok with tomb we are often "life short", just an idea, not already tested :/
About anarchy in SB, I think is metagame question ...
This deck used to run Pyroclasm and Earthquake main deck as a sweeper against little people decks and that final burn to the face with Earthquake.Quote:
Originally Posted by hcldecalastie
I assume that neither are run as wildly as before due the the fact that Goblins is less present and both of those are bad at dealing with Thresh creatures, especially Tarmogoyf.
Hey all, I have been silently following this deck for a long time. But now I have to say that I think the new blood have the direction pegged correctly.
I think this guy has it right.Quote:
Originally Posted by la loutre
Hot yes. But I think it is win-more.Quote:
Originally Posted by largebrandon
Blue Faerie Stompy decks need equipment because the creature selection is slim. And the removal is even slimmer. Red is certainly not in that spot. I have played the deck enough to know that once a Pit Dragon is on the table, the opponent has got trouble. Equipment or no, that thing can kill fast with double strike. Gathans at 5/5, Arc Sloggers, same story really. These are not the kinds of critters that need equipment.
I play good old-fashioned Fireball instead. Plus we pitch Spirit Guides and pin excess Magi under a Chrome Mox. There needs to be a higher density of threats. I have played the games when my opponent allowed my equipment to sit there while countering/destroying a few key creatures. These matches can become easy wins with more important cards.
Just food for thought. Has anyone tried:
Ydwen Efreet
Pyromancy
Shaleskin Plower
The only equipment I would run is Umezawa's Jitte, and the reason for it twofold. The first reason is that it turns magus of the moon and excess simian spirit guides into viable threats. The second reason is that jitte is disgusting when equipped to a double striking dragon.
They may seem like "win more" cards in a vacuum, but in effect they speed up your clock by turning your utility/disruption creatures into real monsters. I have no problem with starting hand of ancient tomb, simian spirit guide, seething song, magus of the moon, umezawa's jitte, and two random cards, because I'll be swinging in with a jitte equipped magus on turn two.
Warhammer and sword of fire and ice are nice, but they seem like overkill, and sword of fire and ice in particular has terrible synergy with hellbent. I'd much rather run threats or disruption in those slots.
Ydwen is OK, but not fantastic. The big drawback is that it only has 3 power, and that it costs RRR. I'd rather have a juggernaut, and I don't play those either.Quote:
Just food for thought. Has anyone tried:
Ydwen Efreet
Pyromancy
Shaleskin Plower
Pyromancy is the hotness. Hellbent enabling reusable direct damage is pretty awesome. I might consider replacing arc-sloggers with these bad boys.
Shaleskin prowler is pretty bland. It's nice to have a second morph creature (for bluffing purposes), but a 3/2 that destroys a land for 3 mana and then 5 mana more for the morph is pretty bad.
Another card worth considering is Uba Mask. It gives you hellbent for the remainder of the game, and neutralizes counterspells permanently. I'm not really sure if its main deck worthy, but it has very good synergy with deck.
Jitte isn't win more. Jitte is creature removal with a side of being lifegain and creature pump. Accusing Jitte of being win more is ludicrous and clearly indicative that people are blindly throwing terms around with comprehending their meanings.
If you aren't killing creatures with an equipment piece, it's admittedly probably not worth it, which is why Loxodon Warhammer and Sword of Light and Shadow don't make the cut.
Earthquake was never run in this deck. Rolling Earthquake was. There's a huge difference. And Rolling Earthquake was good at its job, although I admit that it was largely an innovation of Phantom's (I think. Eldariel might have had something to do with Rolling Quake's inclusion. I forget.) and not my own and he had to nag at me awhile before I ran it over Pyroclasm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanguine Voyeur
However, you're more or less correct as to the reasons it isn't run. Goyf's toughness is ludicrous, and goblins are less common. The third reason, however, is the inclusion of smaller creatures, like Magus of the Moon and Simian Spirit Guide, who tend to get swept away in your own boardsweepers. This is in large part why Pyroclasm/Rolling Earthquake has been relegated to the sideboard.
Wow, I really have to commend you on this deck, it's great! I've been playing around with it for a while now, and the ability to plop down a first turn Trinisphere consistantly is just great, and most of the lock peices are very relevant to the metagame and Legacy in general. What I've been wondering about is whether some land destruction could work here?
Something like Detritivore could be pretty interesting as both a win condition as well as a way of keeping them locked down under a Trinisphere. It would also be pretty darn good with Seething Song and the 2 mana lands, negating the fact that it's a little slow. Another great thing about it is that the land destruction effect is uncounterable (other than stifling it) and the lands made into Mountains by the Moon effects are still nonbasic in type.
Detritivore is also pretty badass against dredge and loam decks, because he can get frigging gigantic under the right circumstances. It also kicks Standstill right in the gonads on multiple levels, because not only does it kill all of their manlands that operate underneath it, they don't get to draw the cards until it's finished blowing them up meaning that they might have to discard the cards that they draw off of it due to mana constraints.
Sorry I was wrong !
No. Mountains do not always equal basic lands. See Volcanic Island. "Mooned" mountains would not untap.
Q: With Blood Moon in play, are the non-basic lands that have been turned into Mountains still non-basic? If I were to target one with Sowing Salt, would I remove all other Mountains in that player's deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by TeKo
A: Blood Moon does not change the supertypes of the lands that it affects; specifically, they do not become basic lands. So yes, you can target one of these lands with Sowing Salt. However, Blood Moon does not change the names of these cards, so you will only be able to search the appropriate player's library, hand, and graveyard for those cards with the same name as the targeted land, not Mountains.
Nope, there's a difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeKo
Normal Mountains of the type "Basic Land - Mountain".
Mooned Lands have the type "Land - Mountain" - and due to this, they're non-basic. For the same reason, Artifact lands are still artifacts because Moon can't screw around with supertypes.
Haha, it's okay, it's a bit confusing. But I still think Detritivore would be a good card for this deck to include!Quote:
Originally Posted by TeKo
Has anyone tested Ogre Shaman here? He's a 3/3 Stormbind for 3RR, which seems like a reasonable fit for this deck, in that he pitches unwanted Jittes and Chalices and such to facilitate hellbent.
A few posts up some folks were digging Pyromancy, and Shaman seems superior there in that he also carries gear like Jitte, costs less to activate, and turns easily stranded cards like Chrome Mox and Chalice into Shocks.
Granted, if you have a Pit-Dragon down the mana is prolly better spent firebreathing, and Ogre Shaman is no Arc-Slogger when it comes to ruining weenie hoards. Then again, if you have one of those dudes down, aren't you winning regardless?
That the discard is random might be untenably crappy at times, but I expect that's rare.
Anyway, to the extent that a redundant threat is desired, Ogre Shaman seems preferable to, say, Tephraderm.
Yep.
It's not as good as Arc-Slogger. It cost the same for a smaller body with an ability that's harder to use.My mistake. I used Earthquake because Portal cards don't exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Along with Detritivore, I think this deck should consider using Shard Pheonix over Sulfur Elemental. Sulfur Elemental does beat counterspells, but so does Shard Pheonix. Shard Pheonix is also a pyroclasm, it flies with equipment, can continually chump block late game and is another card that synergizes with Seething Song (good against fast aggro).
Sulfur Elemental is just not powerful enough to warrant inclusion IMO. Sure it comes down quickly and gets through countermagic but I find this deck lacks control. The problem with Sulfur Elemental is that it can outclass exactly 0 creatures in the format. Unless their board is completely gone or attacking, it's going to be difficult to do anything with it. Getting down a first turn lock peice is incredible against aggro, but a lot of the time, you want an answer to the dorks they've already spewed onto the board.
Consider that Shard Pheonix has potentially 4 power against non-flying creatures, and the only card in the deck that it doesn't synergize with is Magus of the Moon. It has evasion, unlike any other creature in the deck, so it works well with equipment and it's swords-proof, so your opponent can never get rid of it without graveyard removal (which they will most likely side out or never side in against this deck).
If you're worried about the curve, there are still 8 3 mana creatures (the equivilant of a one/two drop) and the lock peices usually come down first. The problem that I've noticed is that with equipment, if a deck has a lot of removal you can quickly end up without a threat to equip. That won't be a problem with Shard Pheonix. Eventually you're going to equip him up and win the game.
It's both an anti-control card, as well as an anti-aggro card, and gives you a long game outside of topdecking. I would give it the nod in the sideboard at least.
EDIT: I totally agree with Finn's assessment that this deck lacks threat density. What better way to improve threat density than a threat that doesn't go away? I was also thinking that equipment might be extranious, but it does have the ability to turn things like Magus as well as even Simian Spirit guide into threats. I really encourage people to start playing with Shard Pheonix, because it has been working very well for me in my testing.
I also thought of shard phoenix, but you can't counter the argument of changing the curve by saying that the curve will still have 3cc creatures. No one argues that, they argue that 8 3cc cratures is too few.
Trust me, as someone who played a list with more 5cc guys at multiple tournaments, when I say that the deck can't consistantly cast 5cc. Most often, the deck will not get perfect mana bases. The way to maximize the deck's potential, then, is to make it as consistant as possible under the restrictions of the manabase. That's why Tahngarth or Ogre Shaman would probably have to replace the 4th Arc-Slogger if they were to be included in the deck (I prefer 4 Sloggers, but if you wanted to replace Slogs with one I would recommend Tahngarth)
In addition, Shard Phoenix beats like my grandmother and recurs for triple red. Triple red is bad in this deck, and I mean really bad (I'm looking at you Ydwen Efreet). I feel that, in the same way, Detritivore is too expensive to suspend on a regular basis, and can too often end up weak and/or a dead card game one. Maybe sideboard potential, but he seems really inconsistant in a deck that needs consistancy.
Although I must agree with your assessment of Sulfur Elemental. He is not a great creature, and is the weakest of the threats, but he is probably the best 3cc creature not already in the deck because his abilities are relevant and control is one of the most swingy matches this deck has. Perhaps once MT is released we will all fall in love with the Taurean reverse-dryad. I know I'm going to be testing it out.
Really, I don't think it's too few, because ostensibly, you do not just have those as your first turn drop, you also have lock peices as well. Most of the time I like dropping the lock peices first so I can nullify as much of my opponent's hand as possible. This deck, if anything, has too much acceleration (though I can see why) and it does have more than 8 3cc creatures: it has Simian Spirit Guide as well, which is a relevant threat with equipment. It's not like you're taking a full four 3 drops out of the deck, you're taking out 2 to squeeze in more threat density.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zork
I haven't found 5 mana to be a problem at all. This deck runs 26 mana sources, 4 of which are Chrome Mox, 4 of which are Simian Spirit Guide, not to mention that 8 of your lands produce 2 mana each. On top of that, you have 4 Seething Songs, which make getting to 5 mana a breeze. It has never been an issue with me. The issue that I've been having with the deck is having enough creatures to fight through removal that decks throw at me. A lot of the time, especially with Gathan Raiders, the problem is having enough threats to beat decks that 1 for 1 me.Quote:
Trust me, as someone who played a list with more 5cc guys at multiple tournaments, when I say that the deck can't consistantly cast 5cc. Most often, the deck will not get perfect mana bases. The way to maximize the deck's potential, then, is to make it as consistant as possible under the restrictions of the manabase. That's why Tahngarth or Ogre Shaman would probably have to replace the 4th Arc-Slogger if they were to be included in the deck (I prefer 4 Sloggers, but if you wanted to replace Slogs with one I would recommend Tahngarth)
There is a TON of card disadvantage built into this deck that makes going against control decks a pain. The solution is to pack creatures that stick around for a long period of time. Shard Pheonix does that, and none of your other threats do that. Your other threats get smoked by removal, often leaving you in topdeck mode, waiting for you to get killed.
I'm running Detritivore in my sideboard currently, and Shard Pheonix in my mainboard. I put both in my deck against control, because you're going to have enough time to use both. Shard is better maindeck because he utilizes the equipment that you have on the board, and gets rid of troublesome weenies. The "slow as your grandmothing" thing is pretty funny, I have to admit I lol'd at that, but he serves a couple of purposes. Against Goblins, Elves, and other low cc Stompy decks, you're going to rush him into play via a Seething Song or multiple acceleration pieces so that you can nuke their board.Quote:
In addition, Shard Phoenix beats like my grandmother and recurs for triple red. Triple red is bad in this deck, and I mean really bad (I'm looking at you Ydwen Efreet). I feel that, in the same way, Detritivore is too expensive to suspend on a regular basis, and can too often end up weak and/or a dead card game one. Maybe sideboard potential, but he seems really inconsistant in a deck that needs consistancy.
Against control and midrange decks, you're going to play equipment, play him when you have the chance, and ride him to victory, ignoring their countermagic. Equipment (especially Sword of F&I) makes the evasion he has invaluable, and makes him a little bit faster than your grandmother on offense :P (he is primarily a defensive creature, and a long-game win condition).
Also, about the triple red problem that you might encounter, the recursion effect is always going to be relevant long-game, when you will probably have the 3 red mana available. 14 permanent red mana sources is definitely enough to rely upon after the first 8 or so turns of the game.
The Taurean reverse-dryad sounds promising, but Sulfur Elemental is pretty poor IMO. His 3cc-ness isn't as apealing as it sounds in a vacuum, because he is not only played in such a low quantity, he also has such a weak body in combat. This deck is packing ZERO removal. Squeezing him through in combat is almost impossible, and even with Jitte, where you want the counters, if you don't have another creature to attach it to after the first threat, you're going to be in trouble. You want something with evasion to get past the inevitable blocker they will put on the board, and it's not always going to be blue or red.Quote:
Although I must agree with your assessment of Sulfur Elemental. He is not a great creature, and is the weakest of the threats, but he is probably the best 3cc creature not already in the deck because his abilities are relevant and control is one of the most swingy matches this deck has. Perhaps once MT is released we will all fall in love with the Taurean reverse-dryad. I know I'm going to be testing it out.
@everyone else:
Is anyone else having trouble with Landstill? If they are packing Disk and CoP:Red in the board, I find it's almost impossible to disrupt them enough to pull the win out, even if I'm running a more aggressive version of the deck. Disk is such a beating against this deck. Needle sounds good, but when you have to pick between COP and Disk, eventually countermagic is going to enter the equasion, even past Trinisphere and Chalice.
Yes, you had magus, blood moon and trinisphere out. Your opponnent had some non basic mountains :laugh: I was playing Faerie stompy and ended 66th, mostly because of my lack of experience with Faerie stompy.Quote:
Originally Posted by la loutre
Okay, there seems to be some misconceptions floating around that
1. Dragon Stompy lacks threat density.
and
2. Playing incredibly bad cards like Shard Phoenix or anything else that costs five mana fixes this problem.
So let's start with point 1.
My current build of Dragon Stompy runs 22 threats, and any credible build runs at least 20. This is made somewhat thinner by Chrome Mox. However, 22 threats is very sufficient, especially considering several of them can end the game by themselves.
However, in the odd instance that Dragon Stompy is short on threat density, who the holy hell cares? Combo doesn't care about your threat density, and Aggro really doesn't either because most Aggro runs smaller threats than you and capitulates to Chalice, and the few that don't fit into this category don't run more than a small handful of removal cards.
This leaves control. Dragon Stompy wasn't ever intended to beat control. The reason it can do so now is in large part because of Magus of the Moon and Blood Moon. Additionally, Chalice for 1/2 and/or Pithing Needle contribute to taking your opponent off their threat removal capabilities.
So what control decks are you actually worried about that don't roll over to Blood Moon, Chalice of the Void, and Pithing Needle?
Secondly, on to point 2.
2A - Shard Phoenix sucks. Seriously, guys, what the hell? Shard Phoenix? Shard Phoenix? 5 mana for a 2/2? The whole concept of Chalice Aggro is to accelerate into big creatures. This is a terrible idea.
2B - If I have learned one thing about this deck, it's that you can't play anything that costs 5 other than Arc-Slogger if you maindeck any Blood Moons at all. Not Chandra, not Tephraderm, not Shard Phoenix, not Razormane Masticore, not anything. This is because you will not hit five mana with a moon effect in play consistently. In fact, you won't hit it any better than one time out of four. And nothing kills your aggressive capabilities like not being able to play a card and keep Hellbent.
As such, you have to play the Moons when you topdeck them to keep Hellbent. And once you do, suddenly you're in a position where topdecking an Arc-Slogger will shut off your Hellbent. The chances of this are remote and Slogger's strong enough to be worthwhile, but if you play the deck long enough, you will lose games because you ripped a Slogger off the top and screwed yourself out of Hellbent at a crucial time. Slogger's going to have to fight to keep his spot when the much more consistent Taurean Mauler comes along and discovers there's only so many Sulfur Elementals he can kick out of the deck.
Therefore, why on earth would you want to play CMC-5 cards five through eight, when they aren't going to be as good as Slogger and increase your chance of Hellbent-screwing yourself into the loss column?
I fail to grasp how people in the Landstill thread are bitching about having trouble with Dragon Stompy at the same time people in the Dragon Stompy thread are bitching about having trouble with Landstill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfred
Unless they are very basic-heavy, resolve a Blood Moon and win. If they can consistently handle your Moon effects, you're going to be slightly unfavored from that point no matter what you do, but there are some things you can do to improve your chances.
When you bring in your Pithing Needles, you name board-sweepers and board-sweepers only. Name Deed if they have it, Disk if they have it, and Explosives only if they have it and you don't have a Moon. Once you lock down their sweepers and get a Blood Moon down, if you're somehow facing one of the 3% of Landstill decks that run Circle of Protection: Red, just kill them with a face-down Gathan Raiders.
Trinisphere, for the record, is crap against Landstill in this deck unless they run a build where Blood Moon makes them completely 100% guaranteed to auto-scoop. Then it can sometimes be worthwhile to attempt to stop them from countering your Blood Moons. Otherwise, you're better off running Needles, Moons, Chalices (for 2), and then Trinispheres if you still have slots leftover after cutting your Equipment for Needles and the maximum number of Moons.
Also, if you face a lot of UW or White enchantment-heavy Landstill, Anarchy's always an option.
I'm still laughing out loud at this. +5 lesbian points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanguine Voyeur
I aggre with tanoscape
-pheonix sux, because it's a 2/2 for 5, if you like the pyroclasm effect,run it onto MD or rolling earthquake (wich are pretty bad too)
-detritivore really sux
text:Detritivore's power and toughness are each equal to the number of nonbasic land cards in your opponents' graveyards.
so if your opponent have terravore on board they should be at least as big as your detritivore, and certainly bigger, if he was able to waste you a city/tomb before you played a moon/magus
-Ydwen Efreet cost RRR and not strong enough to kill the tarmo
-Pyromancy as a really bad cost of 2RR, for a not broken effect
-Shaleskin Plower sux too, it's more expensive than petravark for the same effect
-taurean mauler could be a good card but i think it's not:
no flying,and it's really not combo with the trinisphere and the COTV wich doesn't allows your opponent to play more than one spells each turn, so this creature won't be on MD
if think the 6th man is really the elemental sulfur, because the capacity Split second, gives you a relly strong "surprise blocker" that will kill some moongose,werebaer(without threshold fo course),some gobs attacking alone on turn 2/3,maybe a tarmo 2/3 on the third turn.... it's also really good to play an split second creature if you play some equipement and have one on board
and the 7th one is certainly the Granite Gargoyle if you runs the equipment because have the perfect cost of 2R, flying so able to kill if equiped with jitte and some tokens on it, power of 2 is not a problem because jitte will makes the kill, and the toughtness could have the boost for all untaped mountains, so it could be a good blocker too
i already test all the other creatures : covetous dragon,razomane,masticore,tephraderm, i was always unsatisfied
the deck doesn't need more and more creatures he already got all kills he need,
the deck is looking for some good control cards, a good creature removal against the tarmogoyf and terravore (tormod crypt is the best for the time)
i'm testing dead/gone on SB against terravore and other big one (funny against stalker and exalted, but those creatures are underplayed)
and i'm really dreaming that morningtide would give us a pillage with CC= 2R
because stone rains sucks and can't disrupt the artifact (vedalken,CoW,Mox,vial)
Threat density is completely important to the deck when 16 of the 22 creatures that you have to have have trouble with decks that have creatures with a power greater than 2. Winning in combat with a hellbent Gathan Raiders or Rakdos Pit Dragon is easy when you have no cards in your hand, but that isn't neccisarily going to be the case on turns 2-4, where a good deal of actual creature based combat occurs. Blocking with the creatures you have in this deck before you reach hellbent is a losing proposition a good deal of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Saying that Shard Pheonix is bad doesn't make it so. This deck rolls over to Goblins (still a metagame threat, even if these boards are underrating it) on the draw a huge portion of the time. Having a creature that has the ability to wrath their side of the board multiple times is something that I think you are underrating. Even on the play, Goblins has enough mana disruption to get their main threats online a good portion of the time even through Trinisphere and Chalice @ 1. The other option you have that combats Goblins decently is Slogger, which usually requires a turn before it starts removing their main threats. Shard Pheonix, with all of it's shortcomings, is able to stop Goblins in it's tracks the moment it's cast, which is turn 1 at the earliest.
Shard Pheonix is a recurring threat against Threshold, which you purport to be a good matchup for sure, but still has the potential to go sideways. Threshold has a very hard time with recurring threats, which Shard Pheonix definitely is, especially with equipment.
Landstill. Landstill is a deck that superficially looks like it rolls to Blood Moon, Chalice and Pithing Needle, that isn't actually the case. They have countermagic that trades 1 for 1 or better with the creatures that you drop, and outside of certain spells, can ignore the lock peices that you put into play due to their strong basic count and fetchers, large manabase and sweepers like Akroma's Vengeance/Disk. Even under a bloodmoon effect, countermagic makes it difficult to resolve your real win conditions.Quote:
So let's start with point 1.
My current build of Dragon Stompy runs 22 threats, and any credible build runs at least 20. This is made somewhat thinner by Chrome Mox. However, 22 threats is very sufficient, especially considering several of them can end the game by themselves.
However, in the odd instance that Dragon Stompy is short on threat density, who the holy hell cares? Combo doesn't care about your threat density, and Aggro really doesn't either because most Aggro runs smaller threats than you and capitulates to Chalice, and the few that don't fit into this category don't run more than a small handful of removal cards.
This leaves control. Dragon Stompy wasn't ever intended to beat control. The reason it can do so now is in large part because of Magus of the Moon and Blood Moon. Additionally, Chalice for 1/2 and/or Pithing Needle contribute to taking your opponent off their threat removal capabilities.
So what control decks are you actually worried about that don't roll over to Blood Moon, Chalice of the Void, and Pithing Needle?
Goblins is another deck that while on the play has a strong matchup against Dragon Stompy. Blood Moon effects are largely ineffective against Goblins, and can't be classified as lock peices in opening hands, leaving you with a select few preventative stoppers against their horde. Chalice goes a long way when you are on the play, as well as 3 tougness creatures, but beyond that, there isn't much to stop them from running over you. This is where your accelerants coupled with Shard Pheonix/Arc-Slogger would be effective. Shard Pheonix is even better than Slogger in this case, because not only does it recur, it costs exactly 5 mana to wrath their board, something that you should be able to acheive with your plethora of accelerants.
What about Cephalid Breakfast? A resolved Shard Pheonix is another potential lock peice against their deck, preventing them from going off as easily. It either stops Bridge activations, or kills Cephalid Illusionist in response to the targetting creature being played or vialed in. That's a pretty nifty feature that isn't currently available to the deck, and can happen as early as turn 1.
Another reason is that Shard Pheonix stops Aluren from comboing off, because it can wrath all of the Imperial Recruiters that Dreamstalker would otherwise bounce and finish the combo. In that case, it compliments Trinisphere, which isn't a bad thing.
It's also quite goodgainst decks like Suicide Black and Survival, because you can actually deal with the stuff they put on the board that your lock peices can't, or weren't around in time for. It's good against decks with a good amount of countermagic/removal because it allows you to withstand their 1 for 1 removal, which is something that this deck otherwise lacks.
As for your assertion that they aren't large enough to include or accelerate out, I think I've found at least a couple of decks that's it's worthwhile boarding in against. They have synergy with the equipment in the deck, not only in the sticking around part, but also because they have evasion as well.
The decks that you want to play Shard Pheonix early against are not the decks that you are concerned about recurring it, really. The decks that you want to play this early against are either aggro decks or combo decks that are disrupted by it's instant pyroclasm-ness. The decks that you want to recur it against are going to be the ones where you have time to build up to 3 red mana/5 overall mana. Their synergy with equipment can also not be denied, due to their ability to stick around coupled with their evasion.Quote:
2B - If I have learned one thing about this deck, it's that you can't play anything that costs 5 other than Arc-Slogger if you maindeck any Blood Moons at all. Not Chandra, not Tephraderm, not Shard Phoenix, not Razormane Masticore, not anything. This is because you will not hit five mana with a moon effect in play consistently. In fact, you won't hit it any better than one time out of four. And nothing kills your aggressive capabilities like not being able to play a card and keep Hellbent.
Also, it's not like you're playing a full set, which would probably be too much. You're playing 2, which should show up long game, when you want it, and not overly clutter your hand otherwise. Six 5 mana creatures is hardly a burden considering the amount of acceleration that this decks runs, especially Seething Song, which is geared around getting that class of creature into play. Shard Pheonix's dissynergy with Magus of the Moon is made up for by it's synergy with Gathan Raiders, allowing you to pitch it early to flip it over, and still "keep it in hand".
You mention living off the top of the deck with this deck, which is certainly a fact of life, considering 8 creatures have hellbent, and you want to get there with the deck. However, Shard Pheonix is very synergistic with 4 of these creatures, allowing you to keep them as a resource even after you've discarded them, unlike Arc-Slogger. Getting them into play is also easier due to their 4R mana cost.Quote:
As such, you have to play the Moons when you topdeck them to keep Hellbent. And once you do, suddenly you're in a position where topdecking an Arc-Slogger will shut off your Hellbent. The chances of this are remote and Slogger's strong enough to be worthwhile, but if you play the deck long enough, you will lose games because you ripped a Slogger off the top and screwed yourself out of Hellbent at a crucial time. Slogger's going to have to fight to keep his spot when the much more consistent Taurean Mauler comes along and discovers there's only so many Sulfur Elementals he can kick out of the deck.
Five through eight? I'm adding 2 to the deck, and I really think that you are overstating the hellbent screwage with the plethora of mana accelerants that this deck has available to it, as well as with 4 of those hellbent cards having the ability to purge hefty mana cards from your hand. I'm pretty sure that adding two extra five mana cards isn't going to affect the mulligans or topdeck screwage as much as you are letting on. In fact, in a lot of matchups, I'm sure it would actually help.Quote:
Therefore, why on earth would you want to play CMC-5 cards five through eight, when they aren't going to be as good as Slogger and increase your chance of Hellbent-screwing yourself into the loss column?
There are a lot of things that need to go right in order for you to win the Landstill matchup. First of all, they can't draw the Akroma's Vengeance before they die, otherwise you lose your ability to lock them under Artifacts, creatures and enchantments. You also have to start attacking them around their countermagic and creature removal. Chalice at 1 stops them from Swordsing your threat, but Trinisphere is the thing that stops them from countering the threat itself. Can you count on having both?Quote:
I fail to grasp how people in the Landstill thread are bitching about having trouble with Dragon Stompy at the same time people in the Dragon Stompy thread are bitching about having trouble with Landstill.
Unless they are very basic-heavy, resolve a Blood Moon and win.
You're suggesting Chalice @ 2, which prevents Counterspells and Standstills, but doing it at that amount opens you up to Swords on your threats, something that you can't afford due to the card-disadvantage nature of this deck. It also might not come down in time to prevent them from drawing 3, or countering the Chalice completely. Wrath, Humility and Moat are all possibilities that can totally wreck you, and get around your disruption suite. You can hope to get lucky and manascrew them if you're on the play with Bloodmoon effects and they have no Force, but that's not going to happen all of the time.
The thing about the Landstill matchup is that you need a very specific arrangement of threats and pre-emptive answers. It either requires you to win very short, or have some sort of threat long-game against them, otherwise you get rolled. I've decided to add things that help out long-game, because I think that this deck isn't fast or disruptive enough (in Landstill's case, not overall) to stop Landstill from doing it's thing. That's where the threat density thing is going to rear it's head, in matchups where they have one or two removal spells for your Chrome Mox/Gathan Raiders hand and they ignore the small threat and stop the big.
That's the problem I've found overall with this matchup. I'd love to test it out with you to see if I've got all the bases covered, but I think that that's how it plays out.
Wow. A lot to cover here. I'm also running off a proxy at work, so forgive my lack of quote tags. They won't work.
"I haven't found 5 mana to be a problem at all. This deck runs 26 mana sources, 4 of which are Chrome Mox, 4 of which are Simian Spirit Guide, not to mention that 8 of your lands produce 2 mana each. On top of that, you have 4 Seething Songs, which make getting to 5 mana a breeze. It has never been an issue with me. The issue that I've been having with the deck is having enough creatures to fight through removal that decks throw at me. A lot of the time, especially with Gathan Raiders, the problem is having enough threats to beat decks that 1 for 1 me."
First off, this deck runs thirty mana sources, as with it's mana base the Songs count. Second, "you will not hit five mana with a moon effect in play consistently." I can't stress this point enough. Moon effects are in general the strongest play this deck can make. Unfortunately, they severely curtail your own mana production. The deck runs no draw, no filtering, and can only count on 18 mana sources (City and Mox count as a half each). Even without the amount of experience I have with the deck, the math alone should show how improbable getting five mana reliably while maintaining a Moon effect should be,
"If I have learned one thing about this deck, it's that you can't play anything that costs 5 other than Arc-Slogger if you maindeck any Blood Moons at all. Not Chandra, not Tephraderm, not Shard Phoenix, not Razormane Masticore, not anything. This is because you will not hit five mana with a moon effect in play consistently. In fact, you won't hit it any better than one time out of four. And nothing kills your aggressive capabilities like not being able to play a card and keep Hellbent."
Holy Crap!!! It only took two months for people to finally figure this out!
"This deck rolls over to Goblins"
AHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHA!!!! This must be some kind of joke? I have never lost a match to standard Goblins, and consider it a wash pre-board, and favorable post. The thing is, no one plays standard Goblins anymore. Everyone runs one to two splashes. That's 23 Lands, with an average of four Mountains. This goes to highly favorable, and is what you should expect in tournament play. They can't deal with Slogger, and if they bring in cards to deal with Equipment, their threat density goes below what can handle Raiders. Both 'Clasm and 'Kenisis make it even easier.
"Landstill. Landstill is a deck that superficially looks like it rolls to Blood Moon, Chalice and Pithing Needle, that isn't actually the case. They have countermagic that trades 1 for 1 or better with the creatures that you drop, and outside of certain spells, can ignore the lock peices that you put into play due to their strong basic count and fetchers, large manabase and sweepers like Akroma's Vengeance/Disk. Even under a bloodmoon effect, countermagic makes it difficult to resolve your real win conditions."
I haven't seen Vengance in a while, but otherwise I agree. Once they go up to 4-color, Landstill does roll to Moons, but most don't. Two-color, from whom you might see Vengance, Humility, Moat, is a horrible matchup. The ones that splash a third color sort of even out, as they play as U/W anyway since you will easily cut off their splash color.
"What about Cephalid Breakfast? A resolved Shard Pheonix is another potential lock peice against their deck, preventing them from going off as easily. It either stops Bridge activations, or kills Cephalid Illusionist in response to the targetting creature being played or vialed in. That's a pretty nifty feature that isn't currently available to the deck, and can happen as early as turn 1."
Blah, blah Sulfur Elemental sucks. Wait........Bridge in Breakfast? Anyway, all this talk about he is the worst creature is true, but that doesn't change anything. While Ichorid is about even, Breakfast is highly unfavorable, especially on the draw. Crypts and 'Kenisis make it slightly favorable post board, but the fact is that they have one out to Sulfur in their entire deck and sideboard (Shaman). And to be honest, you will see Angel Stompy/Death and Taxes at some point. Since these decks were tailor made to beat Red, it is kind of nice to have a cheap guy who kills Priest, Mangara, Isamaru, and makes Angel a target all for free. I think his abilities against Control are already well documented.
"The decks that you want to play Shard Pheonix early against are not the decks that you are concerned about recurring it, really. The decks that you want to play this early against are either aggro decks or combo decks that are disrupted by it's instant pyroclasm-ness. The decks that you want to recur it against are going to be the ones where you have time to build up to 3 red mana/5 overall mana. Their synergy with equipment can also not be denied, due to their ability to stick around coupled with their evasion."
This is the most senseless statement I have seen in this arguement. Why would Combo care about a worthless clock, or a 5-mana Pyroclasm? What moron would go for the EtW plan against Dragon Stompy if they can accumulate any Storm? Tendrils absolutely wrecks DS if they can get off before lockdown, even if not lethal. And against Aggro, you will never have time to recur it. This deck is always in a race against Aggro unless it is one of the Sligh varients that can be shut out by Chalice. To be effective, you would have to have a creature that they couldn't kill, especially in response to you already doing two damage to it, and would have to expect a 5-mana Pyroclasm to sweep their board. I can't see it. The evasion holds no relevance either, as for the same mana I can just win the game with an evasive Dragon.
"You mention living off the top of the deck with this deck, which is certainly a fact of life, considering 8 creatures have hellbent, and you want to get there with the deck. However, Shard Pheonix is very synergistic with 4 of these creatures, allowing you to keep them as a resource even after you've discarded them, unlike Arc-Slogger. Getting them into play is also easier due to their 4R mana cost. Five through eight? I'm adding 2 to the deck, and I really think that you are overstating the hellbent screwage with the plethora of mana accelerants that this deck has available to it, as well as with 4 of those hellbent cards having the ability to purge hefty mana cards from your hand. I'm pretty sure that adding two extra five mana cards isn't going to affect the mulligans or topdeck screwage as much as you are letting on. In fact, in a lot of matchups, I'm sure it would actually help."
This again shows a lack of experience with the deck. One, the potential of having an uncastable does affect your chance of getting Hellbent. Two, yes a two-of can significantly affect the entire curve of the deck. I still only run three Dragons, as the deck can't support 8 double-Red spells consistantly. The deck goes Hellbent by trun three-four consistantly. The majority of it's wins are by dropping a lock, then fattie. At that point, you really don't care what else you cast, as you either have a 5/5. a 4/5 machine gun, or the End of Days swinging for the win. Extra lock pieces, creatures, or Equipment are great at that point, but as long as you can empty your hand it really doesn't matter. Your opponent usually has two turns to both find an answer, and resolve it through your disruption, or lose.
"The thing about the Landstill matchup is that you need a very specific arrangement of threats and pre-emptive answers. It either requires you to win very short, or have some sort of threat long-game against them, otherwise you get rolled. I've decided to add things that help out long-game, because I think that this deck isn't fast or disruptive enough (in Landstill's case, not overall) to stop Landstill from doing it's thing. That's where the threat density thing is going to rear it's head, in matchups where they have one or two removal spells for your Chrome Mox/Gathan Raiders hand and they ignore the small threat and stop the big."
I have to agree with Tacosnape here. Stuff like Phoenix, and Demonfire may work well for this, but are non-synergistic with the deck in general. I would much rather shore up the mediocre matches like Survival, and Breakfast, than attempt to add cards to help in such a difficult one. I can accept a loss against U/W(x) Landstill to get rid of cards that are too narrow otherwise.
OK, instead of just telling people that they are wrong using my own testing in some vague arena, I'm going to present a case for my real-life experience with the deck in documented tournaments, what I learned from those tournaments, and what I learned from decks that have placed. I first played the deck that arguably (I'm not going to debate the origins of this deck) spawned the modern incarnations of Dragon Stompy, Empty the Slogger, at the US Nationals side event where I placed 3rd. Report:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...hlight=slogger
Note that I was underwhelmed by Covetous Dragon, and tried playing Tahngarth. I thought maybe dragon was the problem with the slot.
Next, I played the deck with my suggested changes (Pit-Dragon, Quake over ETW, Tahngarth as a 2 of, and Gathan Raiders) at the NoVa Legacy draft, where I lost to Breakfast and Permanent Waves. Link (I am listed as 5/3 with red splash):
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ght=fudruckers
I thought I lost to bad luck, which was not true. Earthquake was bad and my curve was too high. One of my matches to breakfast I lost with 3 mana on the board and a Tahngarth + slogs in hand, who would have won me the game if he were Sulfur Elemental.
Next, I played the deck (ignoring local tournaments) at TMLO 3, where Parcher and I discussed the deck at length, and my conclusion from the results and our talk can best be summed up by my earlier statement (+1 douche point for self quote, I know):
Now, enough auto-fellatio about my experience with the deck, and lets look at top placing lists:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zork
Parcher, 1st/2nd Split at TMLO3:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
10 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Arc-Slogger
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Gathan Raiders
3 Sulfur Elemental
2 Rakdos Pit-Dragon
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Seething Song
2 Demonfire
Sideboard
4 Pyrokenisis
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blood Moon
2 Icefall
1 Trinisphere
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Rakdos Pit-Dragon
Note the 4 slogs, 2 dragons. Parcher has a low curve.
Top 8 in Germany from earlier in this thread: http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=12057
Note: 4 slogs, 4 dragons
From the 120 person Dutch Legacy Championship:
Quarter-Finalist: Ivo Koolhaas
Here we have a deck with 2 extra Tephraderm. Thats 1 against 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by QQQ
Again, 4 slogs, 4 dragons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afro
And the Worlds list:
Main Deck
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
11 Mountain
4 Arc-Slogger
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
3 Seething Song
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Trinisphere
3 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard
4 Powder Keg
3 Pyroblast
1 Pyrokinesis
2 Rorix Bladewing
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trinisphere
4 slogs, 4 dragons, and an extra land.
My point in this mass of lists?
-My experience has told me that 5cc is bad when you play more than 4 of them.
-Top placing lists most often play lower curves, 4 5cc guys, and 3-5 4cc guys.
- Of all of the multitudes of Janky cards suggested for this deck, including Keldon Halberdiers, Tephradern, Tahngarth, Covetous Dragon, Petravark, Shard Phoenix, Ingot Chewer, Kris Mage, etc, exactly 2 of them have shown up in results: Mindless Automaton as a 1 of, and Tephraderm as a 2 of.