Why do we need Spirits of the Night as a win condition? We got a nice win with Maga. We get tons of draw, so we should have enough Pacts/FoW to bring Maga down to the table.
Printable View
Why do we need Spirits of the Night as a win condition? We got a nice win with Maga. We get tons of draw, so we should have enough Pacts/FoW to bring Maga down to the table.
Here are some cards which grab other cards to create a link of saccing and generate mana. I found I dont know how good they are but maybe they will help:
Green:
Aurochs Herd 5G (finds itself)
Fierce Empath 2G (finds creature cc 6+)
Howling Wolf 2GG (finds itself)
Nesting Wurm 4GG (finds itslef)
Skyshroud Sentinel 2G (finds itself)
Name as One 8BBGG (finds a Spirit Permenent)
Panglacial Wurm 5GG (CAN BE PLAYED ANYTIME YOU SEARCH YOUR LIBRARY)<----I havent seen this mentioned yet in the thread but it looks amazing.
Red:
Avarax 3RR (finds itself)
Embermage Goblin 3R (finds itself)
Goblin Matron 2R (finds itself)
Imperial Recruiter 2R (finds any creature with power 2 or less)
Black (wow black sucks) : none
white (" "): none
Blue:
Grozoth 6UU (finds as many cards with cc 9 you want)
Trinket mage (can get artifact cc 0 to 1)
What do you guys think about Panglacial Wurms?
Hope this is helpfull.
Creatures that find themselves doesnt help much if you dont play Panglacial Wurm. We dont need the mana, we need the creatures. If we get a creature that finds itself again, we play it 4 times and have -1 creature in hand. Thats the problem.
To sum it up for suggestions:
Creature chains are (unless they find other than themselves) useless.
Evoke creatures (or creatures that both add mana and some nice effect are rather good).
Protection suit consisting of creatures are what's needed.
Massive draw creatures (or conditional draw effects like Nantuko Cultivators) are wanted!
Also, rumors about evoke creatures that generate card advantage by letting you either tutor, brainstorm effects, scry effetcs or simply draw cards would be very appreciated!
Not to say I am leading this thread and decide what advices are good and which advices that are bad, but I'm just posting this so noone wastes their time :rolleyes:
Mesmiric Feind could be a nice creature to go into the creature disruption package. If you want to remove the card permanently, just stack it's CITP ability and remove it for Food Chain.
You can also play it out before Food Chain to bait out countermagic.
Actually when food chain is into play, you don't want to remove a card permanently from you'r opponent's hand but you want to win the game, which requires to draw a lot.
3 things are useful :
- tutor for food chain before combo and not be completely useless during combo = difficult. An evoke tutor would fit perfectly
- draw/dig : useful before combo and during combo if it is creature.
- creature tutor during combo, but even imperial recruiter looks weak in this slot.
Maga is a great win condition however maybe for protection play erayo? Think about it he costs 2 and flips easily, you only need 1.
Panglacial Wurm
Could i play the Wurm foodchain it into another 4 times during a single searching effect to get 4 mana from your library?
If yes (I dont think so) this would be pretty cool! Even cooler as the danger of the cool things rule!
No this doesn't work. After you play Panglacial Wurm, you pick up the search effect where you left off. When the search effect finishes resolving, the active player gets priority with Panglacial Wurm on the stack. The wurm has to resolve in order for you to be able to sacrifice it, and the resolution of the spell does not occure until the search is complete, at which point it's too late to find other wurms.Quote:
Originally Posted by HdH_Cthulhu
I don't know if it has been said before, but what about Chrome Mox or Lotus Petal to speed up the combo?
Maybe the Petal, because the Mox takes us a card we could need in the combo. Willoe and I thought about returning to the 5c-manabase, to get more solutions. We could add more handdisruption if we know the meta. Lotus Petal would also help that 5c manabase.
the disruption/protection suit is very important. Mesmeric Fiend makes it out perfect, not because it draws cards, but it knocks off FoWs and other cards we don't like to see. And yes, this can be done by removing fiend in response to CIP trigger. The leaves play phrase that reads "that player" hasn't even found a player yet, therefore that ability does nothing, while the CIP effect does. This is why a kill condition with 4 laquatus' champion also's possible. Also, Soul Scourge can also be used xD
Not true.Quote:
Originally Posted by willoe
SourceQuote:
Q: What about Laquatus's Champion?
A: The Champions leave play ability doesn't return anything; it just lets the target player (chosen when the comes into play ability is put on the stack) gain six life. This will happen normally.
SourceQuote:
Two Nightmare creatures (Soul Scourge and Laquatus's Champion) make a player lose and gain life instead of removing cards or permanents from the game. If either of these creatures leaves play before its comes-into-play ability resolves, the leaves-play ability will resolve first. The player targeted by the comes-into-play ability will first gain life, then lose life.
seriously? Damn. It's a grammatical problem. I thought it was because "that" wasn't player "yet". Since I'm not a genius at english grammar, I cannot explain it. But if it's wrong, then we virtually only have maga kill or grozoth toolbox :P
This is a REALLY interesting concept.
For sheer mana production, it probably doesn't get better than Ingot Chewer.
convert dvd to ipod
ipod converter
From the look of the lists, this deck only runs 1 maga. Since maga isn't a spirit and can't be fetched by Iname, how do you plan on drawing one, without Imperial Recruiter?
Myojin of Seeing Winds? Mulldrifter?
I'm really thinking about Eternal Witness, great against control it helps us to get cards put in the graveyard to find Food Chain (e.g. Mulldrifter) as well as cards put in the graveyard with Intuition, allows to Intuition for one card and get rid of opponent's counters just as well as Mesmeric Fiend. Eternal Witness can be considered a disruption piece against certain decks.
What Protection suit would you try with a 5c-manabase? The only real change to the 2c-mana base is Thoughtseize. Or would you pick others?
we can use protection with creatures. Unless the opponent zaps it, it works like a 2cc thoughtseize. As I mentioned before, Gaddock Teeg, Glowrider, Meddling Mage, backed up by FoW and Misdirection makes it out for a great protection suit. 4 FoWs or Misdirections, and a singleton of gaddock, glow, mage, and 4 mesmeric fiend does thier job okay, according to my tests.
Have you guys considered Pandemonium as a win condition? It seems like it would work wonders in the deck, with all of the creatures that would be coming into play within one turn. You could also play Mox Diamond and Rite of Flames to cast it after you go off.
pretty good, but it requires another, less consistent way of playing. If you could find a creature that did a likely effect, the deck should be based around that. Pandemonium requires academy rector and maybe accursed centaur to have a sac outlet. Since the mana generated with FC only can be used to other creatures, a noncreature spell is indeed very hard to play. Food Chain except for Tutors should be the only noncreature spell in the deck. Protection can be trinisphere and FoW, but nothing more. For a creature that abuses other creatures when they are played, it probably doesn't get any better than keldon battlewagon xD Inner-Flame Acolyte could give it haste, but that is also a soo bad kill. Maga is the best, period. Morningtide can bring us 2 things except for plain tournament staples: big fat evoke creatures with nifty abilities ; or a 9cc dude with haste. Then we can have a grozoth toolbox deck, and we don't need THAT much diggers. Grozoth, myojin, and a playset of the hasty 9cc dudes would be nice. This is just hypothetical, however.
Happy holidays!
Actually, strong 9cc draw or tutor creatures could also make grozoth worthwhile.Quote:
Originally Posted by willoe
I have to say that all the builds I've seen in this thread seem needlessly obtuse, and approach the problems with the deck at entirely the wrong angle.
At the risk of pointing out the obvious, I'm going to note that the pressing question you ought to have is not, "What do I do if I resolve a Myojin?" but, "What do I do if I don't resolve a 7-10 mana creature? Heck, what do I do if I don't resolve Food Chain at all?"
This is why Food Chain Elves might, despite the combo aspect itself seeming inferior, be a stronger option in the long run. Regardless, I have been experimenting with a primarily three color build, like thus;
Manabase:
4 Tropical Island
4 Taiga
4 Foothills
2 Forest
2 Volcanic Island
Mana-creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Llanowar Elves
Food Chains:
4 Food Chain
Self-Replacing Creatures
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Coiling Oracle
4 Raven Familiar
4 Fierce Empath
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Mulldrifter
Big Guns
1 Myojin of Night's Reach
1 Myojin of Infinite Rage
2 AEthersnipe
1 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Simic Sky Swallower
The mana base is, while hardly bullet-proof, fairly consistent, and in matchups where resolving Food Chain is less than a given, has allowed me to play out almost all my spells (Night's Reach being the exception) the hard way. Despite only having 16 lands, the deck can cycle through it's cards fairly quickly, so getting there isn't that difficult. Landstill is a nightmarish matchup, since counters and Wrath/Damnation/Deed = bad times. Threshold is less so; it's pretty easy to swamp even the largest Tarmogoyf with hordes of self-replacing creatures, especially when the big guns start coming out. CephBreakfast also seems like an abysmal matchup, since they can combo off about as fast as you can and they have disruption. I could squeeze in Force and maybe Cabal Therapy, but it seems like a haphazard mix of disruption and small creatures would be far too inconsistent against Thresh.
If we don't resolve food chain, then what? Every deck has it's issues, I bet you know that. Not to be sarcastic, but if we don't resolve a food chain, then we're "just" screwed. It doesn't mean an autoloss, since there's so many diggers that can be "hardcasted" to dig for FC in the deck. The list you have is a complete different deck, which (sorry to be rude) has nothing to do with the combo version. In our version, it's easy to throw in protection. Although there's no "our" or no "our version", FoW, 3sphere, Chalice, gaddock teeg, thorn of amethyst, mesmeric fiend, petravark (yes! :P ), glowrider or whatever you like. Not all of the mentioned cards can be packed as it would decrease consistensy, but aggro food chain is just some completely different than combo food chain. Your list may be semicombo, but emptying an opponent's hand with a beef is not the same as making them lose a lethal number of life. Luckily, Iname, Spirit of the Night, even grozoth toolbox or just swarm can also be used. It's right, every card played is a card but think about well all combo decks around. It's rare that the player have an option to bait counter some cards. True, this deck is not as good as Spanish Inquisition, Belcher or TES, but it's capabilities of using 3sphere and the like makes it pretty awesome once it gets going.
And every good deck designer focuses attention on fixing gaping, massive holes in it's gameplan. Reliance on both drawing and resolving Food Chain would be one of those.Quote:
Originally Posted by willoe
Gosh. It couldn't be that that's a problem worth fixing.Quote:
Not to be sarcastic, but if we don't resolve a food chain, then we're "just" screwed.
If you had not thrown in constant reminders that you're not trying to be rude or sarcastic, I would not have raised an eyebrow at this post. As it is, I'm going to make the assumption that you're constantly drawing attention to the idea that you might be being rude or insulting because you wish to be so, and that this is your passive aggressive method of attacking someone who has suggested that your metaphorical baby might need allegorical braces.Quote:
It doesn't mean an autoloss, since there's so many diggers that can be "hardcasted" to dig for FC in the deck. The list you have is a complete different deck, which (sorry to be rude)
The title of this thread is, "Food Chain- Evoke Abuse". In that light, you may wish to revise this comment.Quote:
has nothing to do with the combo version.
I believe I expressed my own opinion on the consistency issues and value of these additions to a deck attempting to abuse Evoke. As such, I'm not really sure where you're going or why you're not on the same page here.Quote:
In our version, it's easy to throw in protection. Although there's no "our" or no "our version", FoW, 3sphere, Chalice, gaddock teeg, thorn of amethyst, mesmeric fiend, petravark (yes! :P ), glowrider or whatever you like.
Please don't play dumb. Pandemonium, to use a recent example, included as a kill would be a completely different kill mechanism as well. However, as you did not bring this up a few posts ago, I'm going to assume that you're capable of distinguishing the defining traits of a deck, what makes it work and what's merely trimming, even if only when it suits your rhetorical purposes. The deck is defined by the abuse of Food Chain, with Mulldrifter being the latest new tool for such a combo. The actual kill is a matter of utility, not principle. The question ought to be what works. Is it better to devote more slots to a combo that requires more mana to pull off, and involves less cards that can be hardcast, or fewer cards to a kill condition that is slightly less immediate but much more pragmatic? I'm going to tell you quite honestly that, having played Food Chain decks quite a bit, I have difficulty thinking of times I've lost after resolving a turn 2-3 Myojin of Night's Reach. Holding out for the ultimate cool combo- for your twelve mana (!!!!!) "mana machine" combo- seems dangerous and delusional.Quote:
Not all of the mentioned cards can be packed as it would decrease consistensy, but aggro food chain is just some completely different than combo food chain. Your list may be semicombo, but emptying an opponent's hand with a beef is not the same as making them lose a lethal number of life.
Here's a question; If you think the deck is worse than existing decks, why don't you either abandon it or try to improve it? What do you imagine is gained by maintaining a decklist that you yourself consider weak?Quote:
True, this deck is not as good as Spanish Inquisition, Belcher or TES, but it's capabilities of using 3sphere and the like makes it pretty awesome once it gets going.
As I'm pretty new to this, I don't know how to quote you, sorry..
All I have to say, that your suggestions/help/assistance were quite helping, as it really showed that "aggro" versions of the deck also can be done. Yeah, I know that since the beginning of the thred (Evoke Abuse) the evoke part has been smaller, sorry for that if I typed the title wrong...
And the thing about being rude... :) this was just an excusement as I didn't really knew how to say it otherwise. If this is turning somewhere against being rude or not being rude instead of a deck development thread, I'm sorry.
Playing dumb? Since everyone can read this posts (I suppose), this was more likely to make it clear that the two decks has a little to do with each other. The only thing that is the same is mulldrifter, some tutors and food chain itself.
Abandon the deck? Hell no dude. As I'm not trying to make a DTB or likewise, it's clear that the deck can't get that good. I'm pretty sure the other guys who have made their own food chain also know that. And I'm not considering it weak, I'm just thinking "realistic" in that point. This isn't a casual deck, just a lower tier than the others IMO. Since deck developers from the entire planet has already built some extreme tournament worthy decks, it's hard to keep up with them by making a combo deck that uses an enchantment with 3cc and a very awkward curve, and a slow kill. (With slow, I mean of course turn 2-4) Compare Aluren and this deck. Aluren might be more consistent, but we are way faster. Like Aluren, this deck is SCS, and that is it's weakness, among others of course.
It's possible, especially as I know English is not your first language, that I misread the tone and intent of your last post. If so, apologies.
While realism is very good, and much better to have than to be one of the many deck designers that thinks their creation is flawless, I do think in such a light the next step is to try a different list of the same concept, and again, until all options have been exhausted in trying to make it work or the idea itself simply becomes clearly untenable.
The reason I don't personally like the Aluren-esque builds is that Aluren requires much smaller chains to win. If they have a Cavern Harpy and a Raven Familiar they win. In contrast, Food Chain needs to cycle through a number of creatures to generate enough mana (and this is in my version which is using cheaper fatties). It's been my experience that drawing disruption cards when you need to be comboing off kills this far too often, which is why I'm not currently running even a single Force, Therapy or Fiend. This makes the matchup much worse against combo-control, and mediocre against combo, but the mana consistency makes it far easier to simply play out numerous small but self-replacing threats against Landstill and Threshold.
mmmm....Quote:
Originally Posted by willoe
going on this... im guessing your just developing your build in order to be something slightly higher than just casual play. if you dont expect the deck to do good in the format. you being the developer of the deck, then why do you expect other people to play it?
i see the reason for this to be developed by all the people gathered here is to make the deck into a tournament worthy deck, not any other reason.
im also trying to be real here, not trying to be rude to anyone.
simple fact is. the concept of the deck is good, yet if its too slow then find a way to make it faster... if its too reliant on getting your food chain then make it more resilient. and thats it.. really. y is there even an argument...
i thought this was the logical approach to any deck built?
or isnt it?
every deck starts at the bottom, you got to remember that! If Cavius the great to take an example with his paul wall aggro deck was trying to make a really, really good deck, then I would be shocked. (And to cavius, not to blame your deck for being bad, it's pretty good in fact, there's just other builds who are slightly better).
And is higher than casual play not tournament play or am I missing something? Seriously, admit that you cannot build a deck as good as thresh. I was just trying out the possibilites with the food chain. As I got no money at all right now, there's fortunately some other people who can do the hard "work" for me. Oros has shown up in a very small tournament, but has managed to win it anyway with combo food chain. I think that was great and it made me look forward and thinking about how good the deck can be. And right now, as I'm in a depression because of my sucky christmas presents, I'm not looking forward to anything very special other than placing good in small tournaments. When netdecking, no people you know know your deck, so that's a HUGE advantage when playing against with it IMO. If it can top8 in a +33 people tournament, which seems to be the proof of being a "pretty good but not THAT awesome" deck, I would be pleased. That's what I'm hoping for the deck. All I want for morningtide is good evoke creatures. I'm not caring about all the rest, but evoke creatures can really make short chains and make the deck a lot better.
-Peter's signing off after a huge party at my place, see you guys :)
I agree with Willoe. What's the point of posting in a thread lacking any contructive comments? That just agitates the people posting on the thread, who are trying to make the deck better.
Have you guys seen this??
Slithermuse 2UU
Creature - Elemental
When Slithermuse leaves play, choose an opponent. If that player has more cards in hand than you, draw cards equal to the difference.
Evoke 2U
#50/150 3/3
(source is the same as always)
I guess it could be used here and in a lot of other combo decks in Legacy.
Wow, that's beastly.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruno_tiete
OMG!! This might very well could be what Oros, I and probably som others have been looking for! I'll test it.
Yeah, I think Slithermuse could be worth playing... But I also think that it's quite a situational card... I mean, it's really bad to draw into this card when you're opponent only had a card or two in his hand...
But only time will show, test it and we'll see :D
Wow, they reprinted Windfall.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruno_tiete
No, they didn't, they really didn't (since Windfall is a variable Wheel, this doesn't make you discard and doesn't affect your opponent at all). Actually, there is a card that does exactly this, but I can't remember the name offhand. It does seem like it could be (situationally) good in the deck, and could offer some more (much needed) card drawing. The main thing is testing; in most games, will it really be more useful than true card drawing?
Quote:
Balance of Power
:3::u::u:
Sorcery
If target opponent has more cards in hand than you, draw cards equal to the difference.
8ED-R,P3K-R,P1-R
I will test the Muse ASAP. But right know I'm doing tests for CaNG with the deck, because willoe doesnt have much time. Whatever, I dont know wether I should love the Muse or hate. At the beginning of the combo, we probably have less cards in hand than LS, every other MU normally doesnt have sooo many cards in hand, against VG the Muse is useless. When we draw it in the middle or the end of the combo, we got tons of cards in hand, because of the Mulldrifter and the myojin draw. Like I already said, I will test the card, but I cant think of anything it could replace.
A fourof in the deck isn't necessary IMO, how about replacing 1 moyjin, and 2 or maybe only 1 court hussar? Would this lower consistensy or make it better?