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This is true. CotV is running rampant in all sorts of decks (Stompy variants) and in sideboards. Being able to combo through a CotV @ 0 or CotV @ 1 is helpful. Chant, Swarm, and Abeyance do nothing to address this. The best option is to (a.) combo around the CotV, or (b.) tutor/Wish up an answer for CotV, then proceed to combo... maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by yawg07
Meh, Determined looks interesting enough to warrant serious testing, no?
Chalice of the Void isn't an argument for Bound/Determined tho', most of the decks using Chalice of the Void in the SB are 2-x regardless, because the first game belongs to TES and the third game TES is on the play. I also disagree that Orim's Chant doesn't address Chalice of the Void, Time Walking yourself against disruption is half the reason to run Orim's Chant in the first place. It's not either/or, but Bound/Determined shouldn't be used in favor of Blasts when Counterbalance is the card the deck has to address.
As an aside, are people MDing/SBing the full set of Empty the Warrens against Counterbalance? I find the best solution to Counterbalance is to be able to either resolve two Tendrils of Agony, one Empty the Warrens or a Goblin Charbelcher from hand. If the deck is too reliant on LED->Tutor->IGG/D7->Win condition, it chokes when Counterbalance resolves. I SB them in and out against control based on whether or not it's focused on Counterbalance or Pernicious Deed to good effect
My buddy plays the hell out of some TES, and from over 9000 games against him, determined is shit against CB. The best way to deal with it is probably REB or a good EtW before they get countertop online.
"But how to you reslove REB if they have countertop Media?" Simple, play something they want to counter like rite, chant, or rit (assuming they dont have a CMC 1 in the top 3) and they will likely tap top, this is when you REB the CB, with top's draw ability on the stack. In my experience, they usually float CMC2 and land in the top 3, as lands counter all your artifact mana, and CMC 2 spells counter all your tutors. (while they beat with 1 goyf or a couple of geese)
Also, IMO, bob is hot in TES (MB if you've got brass balls, otherwise SB after they side out removal). turn one or two bob will give you the gas you need to combo off turn 2-4 with backup EtW. (the 'making their removal relevant' argument against bob is not valid for those of you running swarms.)
My $.02
Also, if you broke A$$ N!@s cant afford chant, just wait until the extended rotation, they'll probably drop $5-$10.
Shadowmoor's Vexing Shusher out of the SB to absolutely rape Counterbalance?
It's only for one spell, but yeah... it dances around Chalice also. I like it, don't love it, but it can work for playing around certain things... Unlike Bound/Determined, Chalice/Counterbalance at 2 does not stop it... I guess in just about any matchup with Counterbalance or Chalice at 2, you can generally expect to have enough breathing room to cast it and go off...Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Hrm, I misread it... I thought it took 2 mana to activate :) Forgot about Hybrid mana. Better than I thought... It also allows you to make your pyroblast uncounterable...
Interesting card, I'd really hate putting creatures back into the board of this deck, but he ain't bad haha.
Basically he's gonna say "Pay an extra :rg: and Pyroblast is uncounterable."
It allows you to ramp up, then go all in knowing for sure that you'll combo, unless your opponent is playing a split second creature removal card...
EDIT: Or it'll say, "Pay RW. Orim's Chant is uncounterable and your opponent cannot play spells this turn." That's pretty nice.
He doesn't need any help to protect: you just combo until your opponent wants to counter something, then you just pay 1 and protect it. It doesn't help against Stifle though. At first sight he is too mana hungry for the TES Sb, but he'll be good in some other deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Is mana really any issue in this deck? I was always under the impression that half this deck is just raw mana sources, with 16 cards producing multiple mana. TES should have plenty of fuel to add an additional R or RR when comboing out to protect/force through key spells.
I really, really like this guy. He may be an automatic 4x in the SB.
A 2cc uncounterable Xantid Swarm that can resolve spells thru' Counterbalance? It's an automatic 4x in the SB, and no one is ever going to SB out their creature removal against TES game 2.
I can't even believe how insane this card is.
Edit: It even gives the deck enough creatures to support Cabal Therapy flashback for the IGG chain instead of hard casting Simian Spirit Guide or sacrificing Tinder Wall.
So what about this new gem:
Beseech the Queen
Intriguing at first sight, a little less great when thinking about it. I mean, how often are you going to have more than 2 land out? So it won't fetch a win condition/enabler (4cc). With BBB it's also quite hard to cast and clunky without a ritual (compare Draw4) and the other possible costs are just not worth it... So, basically it would have to be a setup spell to fetch LED or Wish/Infernal. Testing pending, but I doubt it will make it.
Vexing Shusher:
Is the ability to work through a Counterbalance for an additional R for every spell better than countering/destroying CB?
Beseech the Queen:
As the deck runs a really low land count (sometimes it wins even with no lands in play), this becomes a black-mana draining LED fetcher. I don't think it would be too good here. Maybe in FT it could make the cut, but not in TES.
I doubt Beseech the Queen would make the cut... It's a little slow. It works better in a daisy chain of spells that draws more efficiently (i.e. emphasizes on draw as its method for storming). TES is a precise tutor chain that relies on card 'quality' than quantity instead. It works better for Fetchland, but not the other stormers out there... unless they print a lower CMC kill condition...
kicks -
You would primarily be using Susher's ability on the turn you're planning on going off; whether the Counterbalance is destroyed or is just made unuseable, it doesn't matter because your opponent should be dying that turn anyway. It's sorta a moot point imo.
Almost any storm deck will run Grim Tutor before Beseech the Queen. Given that TES doesn't play Grim Tutor, I doubt it'll play Beseech the Queen.
Of course you would, though being able to protect set-up Wishes and Tutors are also hot as well. I'm just wondering if Pyroblasts' permanent solution to CB (though it can get countered, of course) is readily replaced by an uncounterable but mana-intensive and removable source of protection.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
The need for lots of red mana might be a concern though... Seething Songs back in? :tongue: I guess in a storm turn, you only really need to Shush around 2-3 spells.
On your jesting aside... the issue with Seething Song is... You still need 3 black or some blue on top if you want to go off on Tendrils...Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
I think Pyroblast and Husher in tandem would make for a good sideboard... but do you have the slots to do so? I'm pretty tempted to cut Thoughtseize in favor of... Therapy in sideboard now. Get *all* their orim's chants out of their hand...
Possible new sideboard:
4x Vexing Husher
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Cleanfall
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Pyroclasm
1x Shattering Spree
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast
I plan on running thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Dilettante
4 Shusher
4 Pyroblast
1 Igg
1 Tendrils
1 EtW
1 DR
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tranquility
That seems very strong against ANYTHING. I doubt that I will change the MD for this card because you shouldn't need to. If they have CB out but no top, it should be easy to win. It does make me want to run Determined more though, but UGR to go off smoothly would be hard to get.
I'm just wary of 4x Pyroblast because of fun fun happy Extirpate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
Beseech the Queen looks awful, I won't play it.
As for the SB, why is everyone cutting the Infernal Contract? It's one of my most wished for cards. I currently have six sideboard slots, I may cut the Thoughtseize or Tranquility for the 3rd blast. More than likely the Tranquility, I haven't wished for it in ages. Honestly, I'm starting to wonder why it's in the board. We do win before enchantress after all.
Also, Cabal Therapy? C'mon people, that's an awful idea. It's not better than 'Seize here. Even with Shusher. We don't play even close to the amount of creatures you need for Therapy. Why hardcast SSG, investing 4 mana into a discard spell.
I'm personally not a fan of the Draw 4's in my meta because people can too easily spike-burn if I can't go off immediately with the combo. I probably see a lot more fireblasts out of nowhere than most would... A lot more 'jank' and less Threshold in general. I don't play against Nightmare and Co. all the time =P I run into a few people who play Thresh... but just as many that run Burn. If I played in a tournament outside of my zone, then yes. I'd probably swap Tranq/Cleanfall for a Draw 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant C.
Yeah, I haven't used Tranquility/Cleanfall in a long time... with Shusher dancing around the big enchantment.
As for Therapy... I can usually predict what's coming... I wasn't intending to use the Flashback... only the effect that it forces them to pitch all cards of the name as an advantage over Thoughtseize... and usually for Orim's Chant if I guess it. Thoughtseize does not get rid of multiple Orim's Chants...
The difference between Thought Seize and Cabal Therapy is negligible, both of them deal with the card(s) preventing TES from going off, but Cabal Therapy can generate card advantage. Being able to discard multiple Counterspells, Spell Snares and Stifles is important, because it turns Burning Wish -> Discard from being mana inefficient disruption into bait. Force of Will is now +1 card advantage, Counterspell is now UUUU, Spellsnare is now -U mana for them and +B mana for you and Stifle is no longer a threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant C.
I believe Cabal Therapy > Thought Seize, and if you look at the original Burning Long, it used Cabal Therapy in its SB. Flashback is just the icing on the cake, turning SSGs, Tinder Walls, Goblin Tokens and Dark Confidants into disruption or setting up the Ill Gotten Gains chain when Force of Will is in the discard pile. It's not something you specifically aim for, but it'll accidentally save your ass.
Cabal Therapy is certainly more skill intensive than Thought Seize, but it's definitely an improvement to the control match up.
Edit: Just because Draw 4's are bad against Slight isn't a reason to cut them from the SB, if your life total is in the red zone, just wish for something else. Tranquility/Cleanfall has always sucked, I never understood why people cut Hull Breach for it in the first place.
Or you could wiff and they'll still have 2-3 pieces of disruption.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Sure, but let's be honest, Thought Seize isn't fast enough to deal with Counterbalance, Meddling Mage and Gaddok Teeg, which leaves Force of Will, Counterspell and Stifle as its main targets. If the opponent has multiple and/or differentiated counters, then Thought Seize would have been just as worthless as Cabal Therapy, because now your only choice is Orim's Chant(s). Worst case scenario, you'll miss Force of Will for Counterspell or vice versa, but in those instances Burning Wish should have tutored for a Draw 4 instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant C.
It's about proper hand reading, if you can't put the opponent on Force of Will, Counterspell, Spellsnare or Stifle based on the number of cards in hand, mana untapped etc. then either a threat or Thought Seize are going to be superior choices. But just the threat of Cabal Therapy causes people to counter Burning Wish, Thought Seize doesn't have the same effect.
You can also just SB both of them if your uncomfortable with your Cabal Therapy skills.
Remember, when Burning Long was around, Thoughtseize didn't exist. Cabal Therapy is generally worse than seize because no one can hand read THAT well. Let's say, for instance, an opponent has 1 Island untapped. Snare or Stifle? Or 2 Islands. Counterspell? FoW? You say it's all about hand reading, and yeah, that helps. But not enough to make this better than a definite hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
It was used for double Force of Will and Mana Drain scenarios, if people wanted guaranteed discard, then -1 MD Duress for + 1 MD Xantid Swarm would have been the standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mental
But like I said, just run both. Thoughtseize is still useful if the deck uses Chrome Mox to wish for it before the opponent hits UU for Counterbalance, and Cabal Therapy is still useful if the deck uses it as a pseudo Orim's Chant.
Hitting multiple spells, turning superflous resources into disruption and protecting the IGG chain is worth 1 SB slot.
When I play this deck, I often... dance around the counterspells. It's Stifle, Abeyance, and Orim's Chant that really worry me. I see no shortage of the first maindecked... due to Stiflenought finding more and more play... Your own Orim's Chant is a litmus test, but... a spell to protect your litmus test can be helpful in certain matchups... and by the time you can Burning Wish for Therapy, you're at a stage of a game where your opponent is likely to be holding a suckerpunch... or several. Of course, everyone has their own playstyle... and personal meta to cope with.
New Shadowmoor common!
Manamorphose :1::rg:
Instant
Add 2 mana of any combination of colors to your mana pool.
Draw a card.
Wow, this card seems ... well, really good! :eek:
It's good in Belcher for certain, but I don't know whether or not it's betters than Simian Spirit Guide here. Storm, Draw and Mana Fixing all bare testing tho', it's bound to find a niche some where.Quote:
Originally Posted by yawg07
Yeah it should be tested.
Actually yeah in Belcher it is auto-include and replaces Wild Cantor. It has to be.
But in TES we have a few slots to move around ...
Draw4s - NO
Ponder - Maybe
Cabal Rit - Maybe
I'd test em in place of either of those two first.
I don't think Ponder should be cut, it's too essential as a turn one set up spell. However, I could be mistaken, I'm not a TESman.Quote:
Originally Posted by yawg07
I've got a question for people more familiar with the deck than I am.
In the games I've played, I've sometimes wished that a Brainstorm be a Ponder, purely for the shuffling effect. Usually, Brainstorm's way better, but we have almost no ways to shuffle the deck, so often I'm stuck placing my hopes on a Brainstorm, then drawing the two dead cards I put back over the next turns. Am I just playing wrong by keeping hands I shouldn't, or should the 4/2 split be rethought?
Using Manamorphosis to support Draw 4s could be huge, with Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual that's a potential 12 BB(B) sources. Just being a Right of Flame compatible mana fixer has serious implications, while BB supports Draw 4s, UU supports Diminishing Returns as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by yawg07
If this card opens the door to double colored threats ...
Edit: I run 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder since the Draw 4s and Cabal Rituals are inconsistent, but there are going to be times when Brainstorm is going to hit 3 bricks and lose the game. Just be certain to use Ponder and Infernal Tutor to shuffle the deck when possible.
5-0-1 Tourney Report
15 people, 4 rounds, TES beatdown w00t
The List:
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Rite of Flame
4x Dark Ritual
2x Cabal Ritual
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
2x Infernal Contract
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Burning Wish
4x Orim's Chant
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Tarnished Citadel
1x Undiscovered Paradise
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
The Sideboard:
4x Pyroblast
2x Bound/Determined
1x Pyroclasm
1x Shattering Spree
1x Hull breach
1x Infernal Contract
1x Duress
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Diminishing Returns
How it went down:
ROUND 1
Opponent: Dragon Stompy
Game 1:
Well my opening hand was alright, can't quite remember it, but LED and 2 Petals with a tutor is good.
But, of course, he won the die roll and threw down a mountain and a Chalice for 0 :(
Ouch, my balls.
Okay okay, I drop City and play Brainstorm, looking for some other fast mana. I see some but I can't get free mana down this turn.
Oh well, I put my two back and pass. He draws and lays City of Traitors and Blood Moon.
DAMN. No more black mana unless I can destroy Chalice.
Well I knew I had no B.Wish in the top two, so I had to wait it out.
Unfortunately, Gathans and Dragon burnt me to a crisp before I could get the wish, and OF COURSE, it was the next card.
Game 2: No SB change
I know he brings in Pyroclasms and maybe Pyrokinesis, but goblins can still work because he has no draw engine.
My opening grip wasn't terrible ...
LED
Empty the Warrens
Dark Ritual
Lotus Petal
SSG
Rite of Flame
City of Brass
Well, City to D.Rit, SSG to RoF, Petal, LED, Warrens and burn for 1. 10 Guys, here we go.
He sighs and says, "No clasm" Takes his turn and Chalices at 0
I draw nothing relevant and swing for ten.
He draws again and almost scoops, but plays SSG to block with.
Same turn for me, but he blocks one. He is at 1 now, and doesn't draw an answer. Game three.
Game 3: No SB Change
Well, my opening grip was a first turn 6 storm Diminishing Returns with BBU floating, so I kept it.
He goes first ... NO 3Sphere or Chalice YES!!! Just Blood Moon which is okay because I need to RoF anyhow.
Well I do what I said, D.Returns as 6th spell and remove my ten. The FIRST THREE cards I see are LED, Petal, Infernal ... done and done, folks.
ROUND 2
Opponent: U/W Standstill Variant
Game 1:
First turn win hand.
Opening hand was something like ...
LED
Petal
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Infernal Contract
Chrome Mox
Gemstone Mine
Sure, why not?
At this point I don't know what he's playing, but I start up anyhow, because I won the die roll and my hand is dumb.
Gem Mine, Ritual, Contract ... Draw Infernal Tutor, Brainstorm, Lotus Petal, LED
Wow.
Petal to Ritual, Petal, Chrome imprinting Brainstorm, LED, LED, Infernal and sac LEDs and locate Tendrils. Game.
Between the games I catch a glimpse of what looked like a standstill and an StP and I get suspicious, so the Pyros can come in.
Game 2: SB - Out: 2x Ponder, 2x Cabal Ritual - In: 4x Pyroblast
Wow, total crap hand. Mulligan into a very promising hand that I can't quite remember.
He lays and Island and passes. I was playing against BLUE and what I did last game happened? Geez lol
Ah well, I do my thing on my turn with petals, rituals, a contract, and rounding out with and 8th Spell Diminishing Returns with BBB floating ...
... it resolves WOOOO!!!
Remove my ten and draw 7. Wow. Again, wow.
Gemstone Mine
Petal
Orim's Chant
LED
Dark Ritual
Infernal Tutor
City of Brass
Petal to Chant. FoWs it ... I go for the tutor and it resolves for the game :D
Wow, the guy had one collective turn between the two games, I actually felt bad, but that's what this deck can do.
ROUND 3
Opponent: B/G Rock
Game 1:
Can't remember too much about this game, but my opening hand had it all, land mana and tutors.
He opens with Thoughtseize on my LED. Ugh okay, no tutoring just yet.
I don't do much on my next turn and rips duress and thoughtseize at me. Bye tutors.
He is sitting with Volrath's Stronghold and a Bayou, and I'm not seeing goyfs or a second black for him to sinkhole/hymn me, so I'm lucky here.
Draw an Infernal Contract and play it, draw good cards and proceed to go off and I miscount ... well sort of.
For some reason, I thought he played 2x Duress and 1x Thoughtseize ... nope haha, I had enough to tendrils him for 16, but I thought him to be at 18.
OH WELL, I fetch up LED, LED, Infernal with my Ill-counted Ill-Gotten Gains and prepare to win next turn.
He duresses Tutor of course ... ugh ... I rip Burning Wish like a topdecking champ and win.
Game 2: No SB Change
Wow okay, my opening hand say I win the game. Oh look! Duress! haha oh well.
I draw a decent card, but still not a game win one. Goes to him and then he hymns me. Ouch I lose 2 mana spells (LED and RoF)
I draw another Infernal to replace my duressed one, but still am at nothingsville.
He follows up with ANOTHER Hymn ... fuck, lol Well, I'm left with a stripped hand, but still have a gem or two :D
I draw Infernal Contract, time to come back from discard hell! I draw LED, Petal, Chrome, and Burning Wish o_0
Haha, I go and do my thing and B.Wish for IGG, do that thing and he responds to IGG with "Extirpate infernal tutor!"
I look up at him with terror and he tosses an Engineered Plague and a Deed onto my side of the table and laughs, we shake hands and we're done.
ROUND 4
Opponent: W/g Weenie
Yeah I know, a bye for me, but we're both friends and the chinese food just arrived, so we draw.
No biggie :D
Okay! TOP FOUR!!!
ROUND 1
Opponent: Mono Red Sligh
Game 1:
He drops Lavamancer and I see 12 gobs in my hand.
I draw a card and now see 14 gobs in my hand. I do it.
He doesn't wipe the board I win efficiently.
Game 2: No SB Change
I mull to 6, okay good hand I'll keep.
I know he boarded in REBs to stop D.Returns, he's done it to me before haha, so I keep on my toes.
Luckily my hand is pretty good and I don't need it.
He played some guys and I wait until I'm comfortable to go off, turn 3 is perfect.
Now its the finals, my opponent and I have things we want in the shop and if we split, both of us are happy.
SO, we do that, but play games anyhow.
Opponent: Ichorid/Dredge
Game 1:
He does stuff on the first turn and prepares for the win on turn two.
I have the nuts hand and blow him out turn one.
Game 2: SB out 2x Ponder 2x C.Rit - SB in 4x Pyroblast
He goes nuts and blows me out on turn one, ugh I had Pyro, but no SSG.
Game 3: No SB Change
I hold position and play Tarnished Citadel and pass.
He LED Breakthroughs and I gladly take my 3 to Pyroblast it, his graveyard position is STILL nuts though.
I draw LED #2 and lay my second land to play the burning wish and I win! :D
TAKE THAT FUCKING UNDISCOVERED PARADISE!!!!!!
How did you know that you had to board in Pyroblast if you won first turn?Quote:
Originally Posted by yawg07;222036[u
BB
Well I saw him shuffling up and caught a glimpse of a standstill and what looked like a swords to plowshares :laugh:
Sorry, I guess I forgot to mention that, I haven't really written a report before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yawg07
hmmm, :eyebrow:Quote:
Originally Posted by yawg07
But anyway nice result. Pity you didn't had th change to test Bound/Determined. I always found it a weak slot, but were to lazy to test it myself.
Is Tarnished Citadel a replacement, due to money are availibility or is it serious suggestion. The 3 damage is quite alot, but bouncing a land isn't that swell either. Maybe the 1/1 split works.
BB
I've been using 2 Tarnished Citadels for awhile, and I don't think I've lost a game to the damage ever, 2 Undiscovered Paradise blows.
Benie is catching me up in my dramatic additions lol it was how I felt at the time.
I just wanted to get the point across that you can beat an opponent without knowing what they are playing.
And money issues? lol Citadel is like .25 and Paradise is like $2 at most, besides ...
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...NTESLands3.jpg
But yeah i like the 1/1 split. Undiscovered Paradise is so bad it makes me cry.
But sometimes I like not taking a bolt to get a mana, so I keep one in.