Its crap to mill yourself to get hit by swords to plowshares then. You are crazy. And btw I think that UW oder UBR are the best version.
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Its crap to mill yourself to get hit by swords to plowshares then. You are crazy. And btw I think that UW oder UBR are the best version.
Why not play Breakfast?
If you have the combo assembled, then why would you want to do anything other than win? It's infinitely easier to target your opponent with the combo and just win the game.
This combo made top 8 appearances in both SCG Power 9 tournaments this weekend, winning one of them.
Wouldn't it be possible to port this to Legacy and make it a real contender? Or is Vintage's restricted list that makes the deck a real option?
I actually posted a different Vintage Top 8 from a previous week where the deck took first. At Richmond, Painter/Grindstone combo took first running 5 REB/Pyroblast on day one. On day two one MUD deck running the combo and one running 4 REB/Pyroblast both Top 8'ed.Quote:
This combo made top 8 appearances in both SCG Power 9 tournaments this weekend, winning one of them.
While a direct port of these decks is not possible, I think we can take away from this that the blasts are a good way to protect/force through the combo and that a high density of tutors may be the way to go.
The problem though too is that all of these Vintage decks run ridiculous CA engines like Gush/Bond or Metalworker/Staff which doesn't have an equivalent in Legacy.
The other problem is that 90% or more of vintage decks are running the color blue, and that simply isn't true in Legacy. In vintage, it's been a fine choice to run REB even before Painter's Servant was printed, because it's very rare that you won't have something to Blast with it - even Ichorid has Narcomoebas, for example. In Legacy, what happens if you run into Survival, or Goblins? What about Dragon Stompy or Eva Green? The lack of broken-as-Hell blue spells in Legacy means its more of a risk to run the maindeck blasts. Sure, it's insane if you stick a Painter, but it's nowhere near as good without one.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThoseWhoFearTomorrow
I totally agree. I doubt these Vintage decks have been optimized since Nighbor was running 8 Blasts and the decks from the weekend that were in the Top 8 didn't run more than 5. Since it is in Vintage though, they can get away with running that many as most decks play blue.
In Legacy the blasts may not be as effective but I think they at least are a big consideration. They would be dead in a lot of matchups without a Painter in play. Against BBC they are golden to force your combo down and protect the pieces. Against other control and spot removal, getting the pieces down isn't as tough as protecting them, which the blasts will do. The redundancy of combo pieces through tutors and recursion help here of course too.
I wouldn't advocate running 8, but maybe 2-3 could prove useful?
You're right about Blasts... I think that 3 maybe good, considering that Landstill and Threshold are the most played Legacy decks...
I can't figure that this combo may sleep unplayed in 1.5. It's good and only we have to find another way to boost the combo mechanic or use Painter for some other control tech... Maybe green for Compost? In this case we can build some 4C Landstill oriented deck, with Tarmogoyf and/or Tombstalker for alternate winning condition...
I politely disagree. REB/Pyroblast is utterly amazing in this archetype main deck. If your opponent is playing blue, then you already have a very solid advantage going into the first game. If they're not, then they obviously cannot counter Painter's Servant, thus giving you instant speed Vindicate/Counterspell at one mana. The card can be utilized even without Painter's Servant, and in my experience testing, has proven to be too good to pass up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightmare
I crushed Tombstone 2-0 last week by Red Elemental Blasting a Swords to Plowshares. That's pretty good.
Do you mind sharing your list with us?Quote:
Originally Posted by A Legend
Now this list I like a lot. Do you really need 4 Counterbalance? Three should be enough. That would begin to make room for Thoughtseize. Further room could be had by making Pyroblasts go away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaynel
Another thing I'm wishing was here was some tutoring. You might be able to go down to 3 Grindstones and 2 Divining Tops to squeeze in a couple Trinket Mages.
So it would look like:
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Painter's Servant
3 Grindstone
2 Trinket Mage
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top
So, I was thinking about servant, and the one thing that I don't like about it is that painter and grindstone kind of suck together >_< So, I was wondering if maybe it fit in more of a theshold kind of shell? I guess my thoughts are that a combo and a creature assault are kind of opposed, so it's rather hard to deal with both theats at the same time. Gifts ungiven also synergies with goyf and mongoose, so that's good. In addition, grindstone doesn't have to be completely useless either, because you can give yourself threshold =P However, I'm not exactly familiar with the deck, so perhaps adding this might just make it worse. Maybe it's too clunky...I like it though. I know my other list didn't really get feedback, but I feel like posting another...Just 'cause I like Painter's Servant a lot. Probably could even go down to one grindstone--don't see this thing getting removed from game very often.
Sample list:
Land(19)
4*Tropical Island
3*Flooded strand
3*Windswept heath
3*Mishra's factory
2*Academy ruins
1*Island
1*Snow-covered island
1*Forest
1*Snow-covered forest
Creatures
4*Nimble Mongoose
4*Tarmogoyf
2*Eternal witness
2*Painter's servant
Spells
4*Force of will
4*Daze
4*Counterspell
4*Brainstorm
4*Gifts ungiven
2*Grindstone
3*Mana leak
2*Impulse
1*Engineered explosives
1*Pithing needle
1*Life from the loam
Board
3*Pithing needle
4*Krosan grip
4*Blue elemental blast
3*Tormod's crypt
1*Cryptic command
You definitely should cut 1 Trinket Mage for 1 Top, and the other for a 4th Grindstone. I get what you're trying to do, but it seems unnecessary as you only have 2 cards to Trinket for and both could just be upped to 3-4 ofs and you'd draw them. Also, Top is, you know, good on Turn 1/2.Quote:
Originally Posted by umbowta
I disagree. Top is slow. In a deck with 4 Brainstorms and 4 Ponders Sensei's D-Top becomes redundant. However I disagree with a lot of things. In fact I hate the Red Splash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mental
Trinket Mage is slower, and more redundant, as it just fetches cards that you already play.Quote:
Originally Posted by revenge_inc
I might be brainfarting here, but: Painter's Servant says "All cards that aren't in play, spells, and permanents are the chosen color in addition to their other colors." So you can't use REB/Blast as instant Vindicates then.. -So much for Blasting a Needle set @ Grindstone ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by A Legend
Please correct me if I'm wrong!
I gave up on the double combo version with vault it just wasnt good enough. The new version I am testing is UBGW landstill with the standard landstill base but tossed in "WIN NOW" combo cards, it has been working just like landstill, you mull the game about hitting for 2 or 4 every now and then and then instead of taking forever you just "win right now" occasionaly. This also helps because tutor means that you can hit your combo if you need to not lose to time! :D
4 Perncious Deed
4 Standstill
4 Counterspell
4 Force of will
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
2 Fact or fiction
4 Enlightened tutor
2 Crucible
1 Servant
1 Grindstone
1 EE
1 Humility
4 Mishras factory
2 Nantuko monistary
4 flooded strand
3 Polluted delta
3 Tundra
3 Tropical island
3 Underground sea
1 Plains
1 Island
You're wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seregrauko
This seems pretty awesome as a way to lock out your opponent if they dont play grips.
Llawan, Cephalid Empress
Cost: 3U
Type: Legendary Creature - Cephalid
Pow/Tgh: 2/3
Rules Text: When Llawan, Cephalid Empress comes into play, return all blue creatures your opponents control to their owners' hands. Your opponents can't play blue creature spells
Why? Cards that arn't good without painter suck. Play Reap and get back 10 cards a turn from your graveyard. It's still not winning the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by cooldude254
Well reap doesnt work with REBs and grindstone sucks before painter as well. I am suggesting Llawan, Cephalid Empress almost like a second win condition as you can swing /w painter and it against anything that doesnt play manlands or make tokens.... yikes..
I just realized that painter kinda destroys ichorid....sweet.
Cards retain their original colors; Painter doesn't overwrite them. Black creatures in the graveyard are black and blue/green/white/red with a Painter in play.
Anybody thought of using Merchant Scroll with this? They are abusing Painter's Servant with Grindstone and Merchant Scroll in Vintage already. We have Merchant Scroll too, but I don't know how effective it is in Legacy, considering we can't Scroll -> Vampiric Tutor -> Grindstone. But it still lets you tutor out any instant in your library straight to your hand with a servant, and maybe some relevant blue instants without.
Maybe worth a look? At least it seems decent if you want a toolbox approach, where Merchant Scroll can tutor up stuff like Krosan Grip, Extirpate, etc with a Servant (and Brainstorm without).
Merchant Scroll is crap. The only reason it started seeing play in Vintage is because Ancestral Recall is broken.
The question is how does Merchant Scroll help us if we don't have Painter? Grab Force of Will?
Force of Will is the only card I can imagine actually wanting to be able to pay 1U to go and grab, and that's only in the combo match.
Brainstorm at 1UU is atrocious.
Tutoring up REB/Krosan Grip/Etc with Merchant scroll just doesn't seem worthwhile as for as the number of cards in the deck is concerned.
EDIT:
For 1 more you can play Cunning Wish which has historically done better in Legacy.
But you are stuck thinking along the lines of a pure combo approach. But Painter's Servant + Grindstone seems so open-ended in the number of possible approach in building this deck, that I think everything should at least be tested.
I mean, I can even image the use of Goblin Welder with Servant + Grindstone. Don't need the artifacts? Weld it out. Need it to win? Weld it back in.
Dismissing it so casually without any testing seems...shortsighted, no?
Can you absolutely guarantee 100% that Merchant Scroll will "uber-phail" in conjuction with Painter's Servant? If not, then it's worth some testing, since like I said before, there seems to be about a zillion ways of building around a 2 card colourless combo. What about some UW control shell? Where you can use Scroll for Enlightened Tutor for Grindstone for the win, and it's a shell you wouldn't really hate paying 1U and U over a couple of turns for a tutorable Brainstorm effect. Scroll works with FoW when you've got the combo assembled. Enlightened Tutor also can get stuff like Moat/Solitary Confinement/etc to buy you time and setup.
There are so many approach to this deck that I don't understand why people are just stuck to the pure combo approach. I mean, it's not even that fast of a combo deck (it's not faster than TES, Belcher, or FT). Why can't we just diversify and brainstorm some other ideas?
You know, I happen to agree with you on the red splash. Even in the list I posted, the only reason for red was to run main deck REB which is only good when you're playing against blue spells or you've resolved a painter. Why REB at all? So you can counter or destroy random shit one you're about ready to combo off anyway? It seems that counters and discard should have the problems nailed down pretty well without having to screw over the mana base just to maindeck some cards that have traditionally been purely sideboard material.Quote:
Originally Posted by revenge_inc
IMO the main reason for the red splash in legacy is not for the REBs, Counterbalance does a much better job of protecting the combo, and EE is more versatile (can take out needles as well as hoards of tokens) while being tutorable w/ trinket mage.
I like Pyroclasm out of the board a lot, especially with painter as a 1/3. I also like Lightning bolt for its ability to pick off a creature or speed your clock up a turn. Fire/Ice is stall/removal that can also sit on top of your library to counter Landstill's disks/humilities/gifts.
That said, here's the list I've been testing.
// Lands
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [US] Island (3)
4 [R] Volcanic Island
// Creatures
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
1 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
// Spells
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [AP] Fire/Ice
1 [TE] Grindstone
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AT] Lightning Bolt
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [OV] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 3 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
Lots of combos, lots of backup plans and backup plans for the backup plans. Did I mention the backup plans?
I think this list has a much better game against gobblins/other random aggro than some of the lists on here. What're you going to do when painters servant gets gempalm incinerated? I love dark confidant to an unhealthy extent, but how long is it honestly going to last? Goyf is much harder to kill and can straight up win you the game when confidant might just draw you crap. Confidant is amazing in storm combo because every spell it draws you is +1 storm and every attack it lands is also +1 storm, but here you have a combo of two cards, meaning card quality/search>card advantage. Trinket Mage>Confidant!
I might take out the misdirections sb for some more hot REB action, I tested against MB and while they were a house, they didn't seem necessary. MD Brainstorm, FoW, SDT and counterbalance are probably the only hate we need against that element. Against the other decks were Misdirections are good, REBs seem better.
I tested the mirror a bit and his MD rebs seemed pretty bad. I wouldn't run more than 2/3 and it'd have to be in a VERY blue metagame.
Again, not dissing anyone's color choices just putting mine out there. Duress/Thoughtseize are incredibly good in the deck, perhaps good enough to warrant black by themselves.
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Apex
Everyone is going to be a critic to "shells" of this archetype until numbers in larger tournaments begin showing up. I mean seriously, I must have read about twenty different lists in this thread. For Christ's sake, just play your incarnation at a large event, place, and put it on the map. It's starting to feel like spam.
All this thread is doing is recycling itself every other page with a different version of the combo. It's seriously frying my brain. Until...
A.) We can agree on one or two paths to take the combo, or
B.) Someone places high in a large tournament
...there is no point in posting in here anymore. There is no starting point to take this idea anywhere relevant other than people brainstorming and bickering between whose list is better. Seriously.
There should be two Painter/Stone threads in Developmental:
The "Red Blast" variation and the "Counter-Top" variation. That seems to be the general consensus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Legend
I played this archetype to a 4-0 finish at the last event I went to...
Creatures:
4x Painter's Servant
4x Dark Confidant
3x Trinket Mage
Spells:
4x Force of Will
4x Aether Vial
4x REB
4x Pyroblast
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
1x Grindstone
1x EE
1x Crypt
1x Needle
Land:
4x Strand
2x Delta
1x Mire
2x U.Sea
3x Volc Island
1x Academy Ruins
3x Mishra's Factory
2x Island
2x Mountain
1x Swamp
I found through the 4 matches that I played that the archetype plays very similarly to any normal fish deck. Use the vial obviously to conserve mana for your controling spells and finding what you need. The blasts can be used offensively as vindicates when you name Blue and if you need to they counter very well. This could be explored deeper and expanded.....
i think the best way for the deck to be good is to put it in either a landstill type of shell or a counterbalance threshold/chase rare deck
i played my own version of the deck to a top 3 of a m-l trial ( i know thats not sayin much) but the deck seemed rly powerful and i want to make it better
http://magic-league.com/deck/42565/l...nterStone53512
I just got back from my weekly Legacy tournament where there was 33 people, which included 4 the Servant's Stone; 1 Ugr and 3 Uw. The Ugr version split in the top 4. Which it ran Goyf, CB and some Red Blasts.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Legend
Quite interesting. Please provide the list when you have time. I still wouldn't dismiss the Uw version though.Quote:
Originally Posted by kabal
Question, has any one brought up the idea of sticking this dude in survival? seems like
survival for Trinket mage, followed by play TM followed by go for servant go off. Survival makes this essentialy a 1 card combo. yes you lose force and such but something like
4 survival
1-2 Trinket
1-2 servant
1-2 grindstone
would fit this into survival easily. I dont think that a deck should be built around this I think he fits easily as a back up win in other decks that were good already and could tutor for him.
yes, it has been suggested if you look a few pages backQuote:
Originally Posted by undone
Hi, I'm new here. I just figured I'd give me 2 cents on Servant's Stone. I realize that cards that aren't good without Painter's Servant shouldn't be discussed but I'm going to suggest something anyway. I recently was playing a game on MWS and my opponent named red then drew like 6 cards off of a Baleful Stare. Not bad for a three mana spell. Beats the hell outta Meditate but it's a sorcery which is kind of bad. I also figured that naming Blue is more optimal but I just wanted to get that idea out there. Thanks!
I absolutely love Jaynel's list. But I am going to switch the REB by BEB's, since my meta is quite G/R Loam and Dragon Stompy heavy. Is this a good idea, or should i just keep the config and hope that I can keep a Servant on the board against these decks?
You need REB's and name Blue for Force of Will. Atleast from my experience, that's how it works.Quote:
Originally Posted by smoky squirrel
Yeah, I know why the red blasts are there for, but my meta is mainly red, so this way I don't rely on the Servant. Jaynel's list does die to a chalice on 1 without FoW... If it lands, nothing can stop it for that build.