Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
This way it's more clear that the document at http://docs.google.com/View?id=d3hxs7m_16cr3v59c9
Thanks Emidln
Printable View
Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
This way it's more clear that the document at http://docs.google.com/View?id=d3hxs7m_16cr3v59c9
Thanks Emidln
So I've played both, Pulp Fiction's ANT DD hybrid list and NLS in tournaments. Both worked extremely well in those games and were also quite good in the testing I did with them.
Both decks are quite similar. They run 15 Lands, 2 Moxen, 4 LED, 4 Petal, 4 Top...
The differences are basically that NLS runs Burning Wish, 1 Thoughtseize and 4 Duress while Pulp fiction's list runs 6 Chants, Krosan Grip and 1 more Infernal Tutor. (at least regarding the most recent list posted by Emidln on Storm Boards)
So I really like how flexible Burning Wish is and that Duress can take Counterbalance and you get to see what they still got to disrupt you but Chants are so much better against Countermagic as they get arround Spell Snare and Stifle (for top activations in DD piles) and allow me to go for the IGG loop in case I get to resolve one. My problem with NLS is that I still didn't get to play many games against Canadian Threshold and Merfolk. So basically, do you think NLS has a less favorable matchup against those 2 decks than the 6 Chant version?
In general, where does NLS have the edge and where DD ANT?
EDIT: Do you all still really feel that Chrome Mox is still needed with Ad Nauseam? Sure, without it you probably can't go off without either having near 20 life or some mana floating, but that's still pretty good. I think they can be cut, but saying this I've already done quite some goldfishing with this deck but still don't have that much tournamament experience, so this sugesstion might be off. I am just so tired of desperately trying to get rid of my moxen in so many matchups and basically never wanting to draw even one of them, not speaking of two.
@Muradin: I don't think there is a particular edge over either, both have their merits and weaknesses, I think it all comes down to preference. I built up NLS and really just didn't like Burning Wish. It is very nice and versatile, but there are situations where I draw multiples and hate it, and in certain scenarios where you rip it off the top and a a few mana short of winning. I also don't like how LED, LED, BW does not win the game by itself (unless you have IT in the yard). BW just seems to have a bigger requirement than IT which I don't care for. EtW is nice, but even in TES, I only used it as a last resort or for turn 1 explosions. But if you play in a meta with lots of Meddling Mages, Runed Halos, Extirpates, Earwig Squad, and Extracts running around then I do recommend NLS; it really is preference, neither is better than the other, just whatever list the player feels more comfortable with.
Chrome Mox is 100% necessary IMOP. I really like the card and I know it helps AdN when you cast is early without mana floating on turns 1-2. Yeah, drawing it sucks, but its a small price to pay and it does help in the Dragon Stompy/Stax matchups. I would not play AdN without it, plus the AdN package only takes up 3 slots total, and if you reallly wanted to you could get away with no Moxen but ... AdN would not be near as consistent.
Last night I sadly made it to top 8 out of 30ish people then lost out in the top 8 and didn't win anything! It was quite frustrating! This is the list I played:
4x LED
4x Orim's Chant
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Top
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Lotus Petal
3x Infernal Tutor
2x Ponder
2x Cabal Ritual
2x Silence
2x Chrome Mox
1x Tendrils
1x Krosan Grip
1x Meditate
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Doomsday
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
Sideboard
3x Xantid Swarm
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Doomsday
2x Krosan Grip
1x Naturalize
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Plains
I ended up going 3-1-1 and kept playing against Counterbalance garbage. My meta is starting to look like a standard tournament with a bunch of idiots all playing the same shit ... very dull. Anyway, I had some hideous luck with Top activations and Brainstorms all night and was unable to find Krosan Grip much at all. The deck was performing on a level far below what it should and my opponents all had pretty good draws but here is a brief summary of what happened:
Round 1 - 4C Thresh CB garbage
g1: Locked out on turn 2.
g2: Everytime I look with Top I see Top/Top/land or something of that nature, can't find a fucking Krosan Grip and of course he gets turn 1 Top turn 2 CB yet again ...
Round 2 - Enchantress
g1: IGG loop on turn 3.
g2: I punt this pretty bad, not expecting the hate to come down on his turn 2. Opening hand was: LED, LED, IT, land, Chant, Chant, Meditate. I decide to roll with it, he goes turn 1 land + Utopia Sprawl, I play fetch, go. I was tryin to squeeze an extra turn out of my timewalks so I didn't chant during upkeep, I should have but I didn't like my odds of drawing what I needed next turn since I always assume the deck is going to fuck me over .. he drops Aura of Silence, then gets double Sterling Grove. Assuming I had chanted him on my turn 1, I drew a land ...fuck.
g3: Opening hand was: Rit, Rit, Doomsday, Petal, IT, fetch, Sea. YES!!!! I play Sea, Rit, Doomsday, GO!! The Doomsday pile is: Brainstorm, LED, Rit, IGG, Tendrils, Doomsday go is AWESOME!!!
Round 3: 4C CB Thresh again
g1: I test defenses with a Chant and a turn before I die I have a hand full of goodness but no win and a Top in play. I Chant, he counters, I activate Top, he Stifles, I play Rit and another Top, activate for yet another Chant, it resolves. I play out Rit, LED, and Meditate. Meditate gets Top, land, land, Chant .... play Top and look at top 3 and see Tendrils!! WIN!
g2: Deck gives me garbage and he has answers to both my Swarms.
g3: I amass a nice hand but can't really do anything. Grip removes CB and I have a Swarm in play but he has a Predator so I only get 1 attack. 2 Turns before I will die he taps out doing a bunch of stuff and I decide to go for it. I attack with Swarm and let the goodness begin. I had a MT in the yard and my hand was: LED, LED, IGG, Petal, Brainstorm and I have 4 lands in play. I Brainstorm into IT and a Rit and IGG out! With MT in the yard literally 60-70% of the cards in the deck won here and I had 3 cards to look at with Brainstorm!
Round 4 - Dream Halls with Duress and Force main
g1: I get Duressed on turn 1 and turn 4 AdN gets forced. I rebuild my hand with Top a little and he tries to win with Dream Halls but can't do it through double chant! My hand is Doomsday and MT after this with a bunch of lands. Upkeep MT for Cabal Ritual (threshed), CRit, DD and build the pile: Meditate, Petal, Rit, Rit, Tendrils with him at 18 life :)
g2: I get turn 1 Swarm and double Mystical in my hand, he never really had a chance, Mystical for Rit and AdN and easily win after attacking with Swarm on turn 3.
Round 5 - ID with whienot
Top 8
Round 6 - U/G/b CB Thresh
g1: Turn 1 Top, Daze my Top, turn 3 CB ... not much here, I go for the win before I die with IT but he has a 2 drop on top ... who would have guessed?
g2: I had a Swarm in play and the win but of course, after I chant him on upkeep it gets Dazed and he naturally has the CB on turn 3, but no Top. I keep testing CB with random shit, unable to draw Krosan Grip. I eventually find Grip and am 1 mana short of winning the whole game. Had I drawn: LED, Rit, or CRit at almost any point I would have won .. nature of the beast I guess.
Top 8 of a 5 round tourny and you got nothing? WTF kind of support is that. :cry:
Reading the tournament report section made me lol. Goblins beating combo...which I can totally relate to.
On Saturday I played our little local weekly Legacy. Beat Canadian, Dredge, and Ug Merfolk but lost to MONO RED GOBLINS in the Swiss. Mull to 5 game 1 and my lone Scrubland gets wasted so by the time I get another land I'm facing down lethal. I mull to 6 game 2 and keep a super slowmo hand but with a Chant so I figure I could stall a turn and hopeully pull out a win by turn 4 or so but that didn't happen because Warren Instigator dream crushed me. Should have gone to 5 again but guess I learned that too late.
Nothing like losing to a what 70-30 match up? and winning some of the toughest match ups in the format :rolleyes:
My board was a little nutty:
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
3 Pyroblast
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Xantid Swarm
3 Krosan Grip
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
I figured that would handle the little hatebears and CBs in the meta. I switched out Serenity(we can have up to 3 people playing Stax) for Blasts/red lands when I saw there was going to be quite a bit of blue. Might be dumb to pack that much land but I seemed to have most things covered so I was ok with it. I just stuck to Blasts postboard for the Canadian and Folk games. Swarm seem like the bees knees against Merfolk since they lack removal but Pyroblast hits their whole(almost) deck so I went with those.
Its based on store credit. You pay 5$ to enter the tournament but that money is actually store credit. So basically, buy a card and ur in the tournament. And the tournament payouts are based on attendence and prize is store credit, when there are enough people and it goes late (like when kabal plays Canadian Thresh and takes 2 minute Ponders) we often do a top 8 split but usually it is top 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueMTG
Its also kind of sad, not sure why no one wants to do a top 8 split most of the time, we will usually all leave with 20$ or so store credit. I never want to play it out, I only play when I have to because I don't want to leave the matchups up to luck to decide. All that "well my deck is good and I will never split because I am good and will win" type of mentality is for the ignorant. When you have already won something, why push it and potentially leave with nothing. I never leave luck up to decide because to many times have I made it to top 8 and mulled into garbage and lost. Due to no play error of my own, the deck just decided to tell me to fuck off and I lost, not a single thing I can do :(
Pulp, I think I remember Jim saying there is an issue with DCI reporter and doing top8 splits, or we may split more often. I'm pretty sure most if the top 8 were fine with the split though, but it only takes one to keep us there.
We really can't complain. It's the price we pay for getting to have a thriving legacy scene.
Yeah i mean i don't mind playing, but when just one guy is being a dick for store credit then it gets annoying. That happens alot though, then they back out if they have a bad MU. Gah.Quote:
Originally Posted by whienot
We should seriously start a team. We have really good players, and i mean it could be like, me, whienot, pulp, kabal and thor. We all PWN teh n00bs hard.
If that is the case, we can do a top 8 split and then mark it down as a top 4 split. I have not 1 problem saying I lost in the top 8, as long as I leave with store credit I am happy. Since I haven't cared about my rating ... well, ever, not a problem here :) I'm all about the money, that AEM Short Ram for my Prelude isn't going to buy itself!!Quote:
Originally Posted by whienot
Hey guys, just passing to tell you that I won the French Legacy Championship 2 weeks ago, and a 28 person tourney today with the following list:
// NAME : [T1.5] Ad Pony Nauseam
// CREATOR : Rompeprop (magic-ville.com)
// FORMAT :
1 Island
1 Tundra
2 Swamp
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Chrome Mox
2 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Tendrils of Agony
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Duress
4 Ponder
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 Pact of Negation
SB: 3 Slaughter Pact
SB: 3 Orim's Chant
SB: 1 Tundra
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Angel's Grace
Just sharing my 2 cents :)
How would you build this deck if you knew a meta was very underpopulated with CB/Top, was made up of decks that were easily build-able for extended players, in this case I am assuming I am going to see some version of Zoo (with crappy mana bases), Dredge, maybe some sui black, pickula, or BG dudes decks, and at least one other ANT deck. I imagine it is possible that people will build merfolk because other than force and standstill all the cards were recently in standard and people have them, and the other cards can be borrowed fairly easily and as such this deck is easily the cheapest top deck in the format.
@Pulp: What is the IGG Loop? :laugh:
I guess this series of play shouldn't be called Igg loop in this thread any longer because so many people don't read the thread and thus don't know what we are talking about.
The IGG koop is in general playing 2 LED and 1 Infernal Tutor. You tutor for Ill-Gotten Gains and sacrifice the LEDs in response. You recurr those 3 cards and tutor for Tendrils of Agony. This gives you quite some storm and the whole loop expression comes from the Iggy Pop deck that icluded 4 Ill- Gotten Gains and thus could repeat this process 4 times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spardantevil
Nothing else? Just a list? How was it for you to have to go off turn 1-3 against aggro? Why not just -1 ToA +1Igg?
I'm sorry i made you type all that. I know what the IGG Loop is, i was just giving Pulp hell is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muradin
This thread is known for people coming in asking what the IGG Loop is haha.
For people who can read french, I did a complete report here, with photos & stuff (http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/gazett...rticle?ref=445)Quote:
Nothing else? Just a list?
So just to explain you all how it works: we organised the "Coupe de France Legacy" for the first time this year. It's pretty simple: we make a ranking of the french players out of their results in tournaments for one year, the invite the 64 first to play the finals. There are a few Opens to get a slot too. So the tourney is "only" 64 players. Besides, it's the 64 best legacy players so I guess I didn't steal it :D
Here's a quick report for you:
Round 1: Bant Loam
G1: I know what he's playing, I keep a slow hand because he mulls, and go off Turn 6/7.
G2: I know he sided lots of boring stuff (gaddock, cannonist...), I get the slaughter pacts in. The game is quite long again, but I have a pact in hand so it's pretty easy. I think he has stifle in hand, but I double tendrils so it's no problem.
1/0
Round 2: Landstill
G1: I duress him, getting a brainstorm (shitty hand). I go off 2 turns later, he topdecked fow... but not the blue card to pitch :)
G2: I don't know what kind of stuff he's getting in, so I side in chants & PoN over LeD/infernal. He tutors T1 for Null rod :/. I don't have any bounce, gg.
G3: I get echoing and a hurkyl's. I go off turn 3: dark rit, counterspell, pact of negation, Force. OH WAIT HE DOESN'T HAVE A BLUE CARD TO PITCH LET'S ROOOOOOLLLLL!! AdN gives me a mix of ponder/brainstorm/top/duress/cabal ritual and kills me. A single dark rital would have given me the game... Ach.
1/1
Round 3: Staxx
G1: He opens with Academy Ruins. I kill T1.
G2: I don't know what he's playing so i get in PoN and an echoing truth. He opens with T1 chalice@1. I had the bounce in hand :3. T2 smokestack, eot echoing truth. T3-> kill.
2/1
Round 4: GW aggro/control
G1: I know what he's playing, i kill him with no pressure.
G2: I know he's siding in lots of gaddock/cannonist stuff, so i get the pacts in. He gaddocks T2. On my turn 4 I slaughter it then go off. I kill next turn with IGG because AdN didn't give me enough mana to kill on the turn.
3/1
Round 5: ichorid
G1: don't remember the game, but I win
G2: He plays 2 cabal therapy+ flashback, I scoop.
G3: He plays 1 cabal+ flashback, but this time he's quite slow so I manage to get off thanks to top :)
4/1
Round 6: Mirror
G1: It's my test partner, we made the list together. We have the exact same list except for one slot :/. He plays a duress, I play 2. I win.
G2: he gets the pacts+ chants in. I get nothing. He mulls to 6 and keeps a middle hand. he plays tundra, top go. He will play nothing else in the game. I duress him and go off.
5/1
Top 8 \o/
1/4: goblins
G1: I know he's playing goblins, no pressure. I win.
G2: He mulls so I keep a kinda slow hand. He beats me down a little, so i decide to go off with IGG. I win.
1/2 UGr tempo thresh with CB
WOW. Pretty bad MU :/
G1: I mull. He assembles cb+top while I draw tendrils and infernal tutors. GG
G2: I side in PoN and chants. He mulls. When I try to go off he spell pierces the AdN. I PoN, he bolts me twice :/. I still manage to win.
G3: He mulls again. I mystical for AdNauseam EoT2. T3 I go off with lots of mana, he dazes. No FOOOOORCE I WIIIIIN \o/
Finals: Goblins
Pretty funny game.
G1: he wins the toss, beats me with pili, I kill T3.
G2: just take a look at the report in french, see my starting hand.
LOLOLOL .... it really wasn't funny :) But yes, I would recommend that we update the OP with info on how to play the deck but, people don't read any of the thread (even when they can't play the deck), let alone the OP; nor do they utilize the search feature. Quite sad really :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
EDIT: I did actually laugh when you initially posted that!
I'm currently trying PF's version of DDFt/ANT hybrid. While I like the sinergies between Tops and Mystical/AdNauseam, I'd noticed how much AdNauseam in here is completely suboptimal because of the Doomsday core (DD + Meditate), which makes it noticeably worse than how it is in straight ANT. I know that AdNauseam is the only storm engine that doesn't require you to setup with several cards and in normal conditions is an autowin out of nowhere, but it seems that this thing doesn't happen in here. Does anyone have tried a way to optimize it a bit more? I know that the 3rd mox is impossible to it because it would interfere too much with the DD part, but perhaps there's something else that can act like a sort of IMS. Rain Of Filth? 15 lands could be enough.
Also, about the Sb strategies: I don't know if , against TT and Merfolks, boarding to become a straight DDFT is the right thing. TT is usually SBing in some Grips to handle Top, which mean that the DD plan can be seriously fucked up. Merfolk on the contrary tries to win as fast as possible and there have been times when I couldn't handle the quick clock, or just finished with DDay in hand and no top, and couldn't go for IGG because of Relic of Progenitus or them recurring Force/Daze (which are tedious along with Cursecatcher). In general, furthermore, I found Top to be too slow against Merfolks, tbh.
Any considerations about these MUs?
Last question: did anyone try to make the Hybrid version run onyl staying in the UBW colours? I tend to be reluctant in front of splashing a 4th colour because i like the possibility of having both Island and Swamp as basic lands ( and a Plains in side against tempo decks, ok); I can't deny that Xantid Swarm and Grip are great to face the hate, but , apart from Merfolks, 6 Chants (MD) and a Pact of Negation (from the sb) should be enough to handle Tempo decks. While for Grip, i replace it with Wipe Away. While it doesn't get rid of the enchantmente permanently, i found myself casting in the eot, and usually having success. Plus, CB decks are on a downside, so I'm not really afraid of them as i used to be. In the Stax Matchup, instead, the difference between a 3-cc removal and a 2-cc removal may matter a lot, because of the wasteland effect and also for Armageddons. That's why I tend to prefer several Disenchants over KGrip in this Matchup; also considering that the latter depends on a dual land, while the basic plains allows for "safe" mana for Disenchant.
I post my list, I'd like experts of this particular build to give me more in-depth suggestions about their experience with a hypothetical 3-colours only list.
1 [TSP] Island (4)
1 [B] Scrubland
2 [A] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [A] Tundra
1 [PT] Swamp (2)
// Spells
1 [WL] Doomsday
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [OV] Meditate
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [B] Dark Ritual
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [LRW] Ponder
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [M10] Silence
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 2 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 2 [MI] Disenchant
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [LRW] Plains (4)
I remember playing against you with this deck on MWS a couple of weeks ago, and if I'm not mistaken, I got my face stomped pretty badly. All I can say from that is that the deck seems good, but since I'm no expert, that's all the depth I can give you.
Main Deck
3 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Pact of Negation
3 Orim's Chant
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Angel's Grace
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Crystal Vein
1 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Echoing Truth
Sideboard
1 Perish
2 Wipe Away
1 Tempest of Light
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Honor The Fallen
3 Slaughter Pact
4 Duress
1 Orim's Chant
Thoughts?
This placed first at my local stores last tournament.