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Wretech banquet is amazing against aggro decks... Most of the time your creatures are bigger than your oponnent's creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jona
In the first few turns , the only player with creatures in the table is he...so you can use it for early threats too.
But ghastly demise seems way better in our deck than this. It's instant and we have a lot of cards going in the yard quickly, meaning it can take out almost any creature at the time you would resolve a tombstalker. 'cept very big knights..Quote:
Originally Posted by ComboMan
Dan I love you haha!Quote:
Originally Posted by nitewolf9
The thing I dislike about Ghastly Demise is that it makes graveyard hate even better against us. Relic Of Progenitus is really strong against our threats, and having our removal shut off on top of that is to risky. On the other hand, people rarely board in their graveyard hate against me I. Anyway, I think Go For The Throat is superior right now, as Spell Snare isn't too common but Tombstalkers and ridicoulously big Knights are something I face a lot. The only situation where I believe Ghastly Demise to be worth playing is if there's a lot of Goblins or Noble Hierarch fueled decks in your meta, but in this case Darkblast is just awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neffy
Also, I'm not too worried about my Merfolk matchup right now to be honest. It's not a great portion of the metagame and Team America still beats almost every other deck easily. This deck is really really strong right now, I have a lot of fun playing it.
Ghastly demise don't kill black creatures... So it's worst in mirror match up...Quote:
Originally Posted by Neffy
I'm not saying Banquet is the right way to go though...is just an GOOD option against folks...
I'm having a blast playing this deck. I too am having the same problem with the removal suite. I keep dying to huge KotR & Terravores. I'm thinking smother might be a necessary evil in the board. Any other thoughts?
Go For The Throat? I mean okay, it's not that good against Affinity (at all) but it's amazing against every other deck with creatures. Apart from that, I'm gonna give Maelstrom Pulse a try, let's see how that works out.
And about Affinity, I don't think that's too much of a problem since we still have access to stuff like Engineered Explosives and Pernicious Deed. Darkblast is also not that bad against them. I'm actually considering to run a Darkblast in the board in addition to the one I run maindeck. Also, I'm probably gonna try out some number of Umezawa's Jitte from the board, together with Bitterblossom. This might actually help with Merfolk, plus Bitterblossom is generally awesome against a lot of decks.
Edit: I'm considering Thrun, The Last Troll as an option against control by the way. What I really like about him is that he just beats every form of control and there are only few ways to stop him. Basically there's only Peacekeeper, recurring Engineered Explosives, Wrath Of God, Damnation and Perish. Plus we have countermagic to deal with these cards (I'm also running the full set of Spell Pierces in the board). I hope to be able to do some testing as soon as my Thruns arrive.
I noticed those guys were getting more popular, put some Mind Harnesses in the board. No idea if they're worth it or not, but they generally take care of the problem... and then some.Quote:
Originally Posted by Worm1605
I dont see the problem. Most TA lists are running MD go for the throat,and additional removal on side(like a darkblast,pulse,demise,deed,..)
Run Maelstrom Pulse, seriously. It is incredibly versatile and frees up sideboard space for other cards. 3 of them is enough along with your other removal.
Hi all,
I posted it in other forums but I'd also like to share it here, where I think it will be more discussed and where I think I can learn more.
In different moments of the last 2 years I've been toying with a UBg deck without Sinkholes, because I never felt comfortable about using that card over more removal or whatever. To TA's favor, I always had extremely bad results. I tried different combinations and although all seemed quite good on paper, they were never good enough in reality.
Lastly, I saw this "new generations" of TAs without Sinkhole and with Hymn to Tourach and I felt that this was the card I was looking for. This is a more controlish and slow deck than the TAs in the premier, but I think it may be the way to go. So I mixed some lists and played in a 48ppl Legacy tournament this last weekend. Let's start with the list (The name of the deck is a personal pun to some of my friends, so don't take it personally):
THE DECK: Team ItalianeTES
Creatures - 9
2 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Instants - 19
3 Go For the Throat
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
Sorceries - 9
2 Ponder
4 Hymn To Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
Planeswalkers - 2
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands - 21
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
Sideboard - 15
3 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
1 Creeping Corrosion
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Ghastly Demise
3 Submerge
1 Life from the Loam
Comments about the deck:
- 9 Creatures.
I always felt this was the right number. And also I'm a fan of 4-3-2 distribution in Tarmos-Stalkers-Vendis. This time I tried a Thrun for a Tombstalker. TBH, a bad move.
- 5 Removal.
My meta is quite crowded with Zoo, Maverick and other kind of aggro. That's why I decided to go for 5 Removals. For more "creature Love" look at the Sideboard.
- 10 Counters
IMHO, this is a quite good combination. Without Mana Denial, Daze is not that good. Later on it's just a Blue card, and you know what that's good for.
- 7 Discard
This was quite hard in the beginning, as I wanted 8, but I don't regret it. T1 Mana-Thoughtsize is really good, but it's also good playing nothing and countering their T2 play, then going for Hymn. The card advantage Hymn gives, added to the "random" bonus of "ouch, I took the only good cards in your hand and I'm going to win the game now" is awesome. For me, right now, Hymn is a key card.
- 2 Jace 2.0
I know this is where things start getting strange. I know Jace has no room in the decklist of the first post, and it would never belong there, but here it shines. It's not that hard to get 4 mana, and you don't mind playing it on turn 5-6 or even later when you've denied your opponent's game and hand. It gives you an edge Vs some controlling decks and lets you play the control role Vs Aggro matchups. If everything goes wrong, it's blue
Side
- 3 Spell Pierce
I was scared of ANT / TES / BELCHER or even Landstill and controlish decks. Just another way to slow them down.
- 2 Krosan Grip + 1 Creeping corrosion
Thopters and the new Affinity are getting popular, you know
- 2 Pernicious Deed
It helps Vs the pairings stated above. It shines in Goblins, Mavericks, Merfolks.
- 2 Maelstrom Pulse
It's a good card to use even Vs ANT / Belcher. It's also more removal for extremly fast decks that deplete their hand
- 1 Ghastly Demise
It may be just another way to stop T1 Lackey or T1 Hierarch
- 3 Submerge
Maverick? Canadian (it's coming back)? Bant? Ok, let's put 3 of these.
- 1 LotL
Although this may seem random, I decided to keep it here just in case. I think it's ace in controlling matchups where it can shine with Jace, or when your mana base is being attacked. It gave me one game Vs Eternal Garden
Brief Tournament Report:
- Round 1 Vs Ugr Tempo Faeries
I lost the dice and I started second on both games. Maybe it was bad luck or maybe not, but start the game with wasteland, wasteland, stifle is quite hard. Eventhough I had options in the second game, this was not enough and I lost extremly fast. (0-1)
- Round 2 Vs Merfolks
This is supposed to be a bad pairing. In fact, I didn't expect it (my bad). I thought that with the awesome quantity of removal I had I could win the game. I won G1 (Jace helped) and he lost G2 when he couldn't kept his 5 card opening hand. It happenz. (1-1)
- Round 3 Vs Canadian
Again, I was expecting to be trumped and mana-denied. Finally, this player was not so PRO at drawing as the first one so I could just develop my game and win. A Tarmowall (C) stopped his ground force so my Vendi could rip him off. After losing the faerie to spot removal, 2 Tarmos were too much for him to handle.
G2 Tombstalker showed why it's in the deck. Flying is tech. (2-1)
- Round 4 Vs Venom Stompy
I know the deck as I've played it. I just kept him off creatures and just had blockers ready for anything. This was the key, keaping him of a free creature. FoW backup was there in case something went out of hand. Game 1 was thoughtsize, Hymn and removal EoT. Easy. Game 2 saw me pack a lot of removal in my deck, avoiding Daze or Spell Snare and going for the destruction of his creatures. Submerge was ace (and unexpected). (3-1)
- Round 5 Vs Eternal Garden
I tried to kill him on the groud, but his force was too big so I decided to block everything I could and start building a Jace threat, that won me the game. G2 I did the same, but I couldn't attack because of an Ensnaring Bridge. This game I used LftL and Jace to recover my wastelands and keeping him off red mana (EE for 4 and Barbarian Ring). The key was to avoid him playing more than one land a turn, destroying Eploration/Manabond. Thrun appeared here, but was useless, as always. (4-1)
- Round 6 Vs Deadguy Ale (ID) (4-1-1)
- TOP8 Vs Reanimator
So, when building the side for my deck I decided to skip the reanimator/dredge/loam strategies and I get paired to this. Ok, let's do our best. G1 Thoughtsize and Spell Snare to his reanimating cards and he just let my creatures go through. Nothing to do. G2 he did a missplay by putting a Leviathan on the field thinking he could handle my attack with this echoing Truth and expected to win the race. Instead, he should have gone for Iona/Blazing Archon/Sphinx of the Steel Wing. Sadly (for him) 2 Tarmos can kick hard, specially if Spell Snare counters the Echoung Truth that could have won the game. WIN
- Semifinals Vs Maverick
I played Vs a friend of mine and we both knew each other's lists. T1 Thougthsize, T2 Hymn can destroy most decks. If you team it up with some Spot Removal and a Tarmowall, you are about to win. Jace came here to make it more obvious he was never going to draw into removal, but the game was about to end anyway.
G2 was extremely Brutal. He mulligans to 6 and goes Mana-> Vial. I play land go, he does EOT Dryad Arbor. T2 Mother of Runes, Hierarch, arbor attacks. I go Hymn. Next turn he plays Scryb ranger attack, I go Hymn. Next turn I counter his Zenith but he still attacks, I go Perni-go. He attacks, I crack perni destroying everything but his lands (he put armor back on hand thanks to Ranger), I lay down a Tarmowall-go, Swords to tarmo? NONO, you replayed your Dryad Arbor, so you have a forest (yeah, the only one) so I play Submerge on my own tarmo :P. That was all. WIN
- Finals Vs Merfolks
I'm still surprised: I just thought that there would be No Merfolks and I had to face 2. I also thought no Graveyard and I also faced 2. Nice read on the meta I got stomped G1, nothing much to say (mana denial FTW). Game 2 I mulligan to 4 and I finish second. That's it. LOST
PLUS:
- Hymn + Thoughtsize. They are really good.
- Jace can fit here. I think so.
- Submerge your own creature can be tech.
MINUS:
- Thrun is a no-no. 4CMC and 2 green is way too much for this deck. Tombstalker here could have been better, or Terravore, maybe.
- Remove the 2x Llawan from the side the night before. That wasn't good.
- Mulligan to 4 in the last game of the day... It simply gives a bad taste.
Overall, a fun day with friends, an ace deck to play and a better memory of this 3 Colour combination... at last!
Here's my two cents, as a veteran tempo player and someone who's interested in playing Team America once I get two more U Seas:
Tarmogoyf and Jace do not go into the same deck, in my opinion. Jace is the king of control cards and is there to grind out tempo/CA. Tarmogoyf is the king of aggro cards and is there to curbstomp the enemy into giblets as quickly as possible. Tempo decks have always felt a little schizophrenic in that we play control and aggro simultaneously, but 4 mana is a lot for a sorcery-speed card, especially when you consider we're running Wasteland (so our land count, despite being around 20, honestly isn't as high as it looks).
Don't get me wrong, Bob + Jace is good. Stupid good. So good, in fact, that if you want to run those guys together you should build a deck more around that and stop playing Goyf/Stalker who do nothing but smack the opponent around i.e. switch to Ugb(x) Landstill. By trying to cram the grindy, superb control package of Bob and Jace into a deck that seeks to put an aggro-like clock on the board, we dilute and hurt both strategies.
Also, like nitewolf said, a 5/5 flier for two is just so bad guys, don't run it anymore. *rolls eyes* Tombstalker is the thing that makes this deck so different from the other tempo decks. It's the reason Team America eats Can. Thresh alive (and I say this as a Can Thresh player -- the only things that scare me more than a resolved Tombstalker are Trinisphere or Chalice at 1).
To people worried about being throttled by giant Knights and Terravore (or even sufficiently-pumped Goyfs): Answers exist. And good ones, too. Sure, Snuff Out hurts. Does it hurt more than a Knight to the dome? I didn't think so. And if people are entertaining the idea of running whopping-4-mana-sorcery Jace in this deck, I'm sure Mind Harness can get some lovin' in the sideboard, or at least Threads. Or even Engineered Explosives to wipe out all the little bastards in one go. It's not like EE is ever gonna hit Stalker anyway.
Once I get 2 more seas I'm going to convert my Can Thresh to a Team America list I like and see how it rolls. My guess is that aggro matchups will be slightly harder as I lose my beloved bolt and fire//ice, but control matchups will be much easier thanks to Hymn/Sieze and massive dudes.
One last thing: A lot of people aren't running Stifle. Why?
just went 3-1 taking first (thanks for the late night reminder / rub in ac3eb) the weekly here in chicago. pulse is the real deal. helped in many matchups. it also gave me a couple more slots in the board to try out terravore in addition to the goyfs, stalkers, and cliques im playing main. kotr gives me lots of problems and i figured this is an extra threat and usually trumps knight in p/t. really want to give kira a try against all the spot removal this deck seems to have problems with (got pathed twice in one matchup against zoo what a beating!) in terms of jace i run him in the board not main. i did cut him for a bit but decided he is quite good in many matchups. he is often a win con if you have a heavy land disruption hand and just fatseel them out of the game. plus if there was ever a card that gave you tempo, jace is the man.
anyways the real reason i am posting at this ungodly hour is because the new spoiler was just leaked. wanted to ask everyone there opinion of:
Mental Misstep {pu}
Instant (U)
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 1.
seems promising. being able to hold stifle and misstep open, having to stifle and still being able to play misstep seems good. it counters a bunch of relevant spells; vial, lackey, thoughtseize, barnstorm, STIFLE (ehm mirror), d rit, high tide the list goes on. really its just like playing snare since the mana advantage is the same if you cast it for free. definitely going to try testing at least out of the board.
speaking of pulse this might be a good replacement yet another spoiler:
Beast Within 2g
Instant (U)
Destroy target permanent. Its controller puts a 3/3 green Beast creature token onto the battlefield.
this thing takes out lands! and at instant speed! its really a question if this trumps the pulse effect and obviously not giving a creature? none the less its nice to see some new tech in the new set that doesn't have a red expansion symbol.
edit: mental misstep is a phyrexian U as in you may pay u or 2 life. How does one create phyrexian mana colors?
thanks for the feedback. in terms of the removal suite i was already running 2 go for the throats and two snuff outs main. having acess ot demise, darkblast, and now pulse sb. it was just wondering if people had tried perish or its ilk.
If Mental Misstep isn't fake, it's a house. I was really hoping for a card for U that counters a spell with converted manacost one. Now we got one that we can cast for free. I really want to work it into the deck, but I don't know what to cut. It might actually be only sideboard material just for the aggro matchups (countering Ęther Vial, Goblin Lackey, Wild Nacatl; early pressure in general). I'm going to order a set of them as soon as the set comes out.
By the way, about Phyrexian mana. It just means that you can either pay mana of that colour or two life. You don't need special stuff like snow lands.
If tempo thresh-style decks remain viable after the format shake up post-NPH (pretty sure they will!), team America is the best variant in my opinion. Running 4 mental misstep is pretty much an auto-inclusion. I would probably start finding space for it by reducing the number of Daze to 2-3, and then go from there.
Let's also not forget the new "snuff out" card: 1BB (Phyrexian black) that gives a creature -5/-5. Worth considering.
If I were to add 4 Mental Misstep I would cut at least 2 Daze, 1 Snuff Out (out of 2 I run) and either cut a Stifle or the 3rd Daze. The best Daze is always the first anyway!
Snuff Out is really there for answering an early creature, and with Mental Misstep we now have additional ways to answer the feared T1 Lackey. (Not saying that Goblins is our biggest problem matchup or anything, but the card is definitely a must-answer.)
Some percentages to put things in perspective:
65% chance of opening with either MM or FoW in your starting 7
74% chance of answering Lackey turn 1 on the draw (4 Fow, 4 MM, 2 Snuff Out, 70% if -1 Snuff Out)
This is pretty good, especially considering they only have 40% chance of even drawing Lackey in their opening 7. Also, it is entirely possible that Goblins might not even adopt MM into their deck.. maybe, maybe not, hard to say what's going to happen with this card in the format.
Re: Dismember.. it can hit opposing Tombstalkers and Dark Confidants, and like Snuff Out doesn't always require life later on in the game. However it is _not_ free, so you can't for example tap out to play Hymn to Tourach AND kill their threat at the same time. Hence, I would not remove Snuff Out completely from the list. It does however have the advantage of being able to kill a resolved Magus of the Moon, in case that deck ever gains popularity for whatever reason.
This deck is going to LOVE mental misstep. One of the problems is that TA has is a somewhat low threat density. Being able to answer a topdecked Swords/Path or Thoughtseize at any stage of the game without card disadvantage is huge.
However, MM's existence raises questions as to inclusion of Stifle... is 4 still correct? Should we drop to 3, or perhaps even move the card to the SB or remove it entirely? I think the card still remains versatile and essential enough to our gameplan that it should stay in as a 4-of, though the main deck is beginning to look a bit crammed.
Here's my early draft:
20 Lands
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Mental Misstep
4 Stifle
- - - - - (these above 48 should not be changed in my opinion)
3 Ponder
2 Daze
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Go for the Throat
1 Snuff Out
(3 flex slots)
The flex slots could be 2 Jace, 1 Sylvan Library, more removal, the 4th Ponder... Not sure what the optimal list would look like at this point.
Once again, we shouldn't even be thinking about putting Jace in TA, especially if we're not playing Bob (and with 4 Stalkers we better not be). It's a square peg in a round hole. Have we thought about Duress or Inquisition of Kozilek? Now that there's misstep, we don't have to rely solely on Daze to stop a 1 drop if we're on the play and want to tap out for a sorcery.
I agree, Stifle's just as nuts as it always has been, especially considering how Fish and Gobbos are now splashing into other colors and use fetches to do so. Sure there are more ways to stop Stifle, but if opposing missteps don't stop our stifles, they'll stop whatever other 1 drop we play. We thrive on tempo, as we love to keep mentioning; Stifle is still one of the best tempo-disrupting cards printed, regardless of there being efficient answers to it.
Sylvan Library is delicious, by the way. I wonder if I can incorporate it into my Thresh? Hmmm...
Mental Misstep seems really good in this deck. Like others mentioned, it deals with a lot of cards that are problematic for the deck like swords, path, and vial. I don't think it necessarily means we should remove stifle though. After all, we will have our own missteps to counter theirs when stifle wars occur, and we still play plenty of 1 mana cards so it's not like we will be blanking any and all targets for their missteps by removing stifles.
I think some number of missteps is right but I'm not sure it's 4. I know that seems strange since it counters 1 drops and all, but it's one of those cards that's not so useful in multiples. A lot of the big wars over 1 mana cards happen a few turns later anyway. I could be wrong about this though. A card like this will be at its best in TA, where you can shuffle extras away later.
It makes me even more conflicted about thoughtseize - on the one hand, seeing their hand is great because then you know whether to shuffle away extra missteps. On the other, thoughtseize is countered by misstep and Hymn is not. It also makes tapping out for hymn less risky when you can back it up with a misstep.