[Deck] CounterTop Thopter

nice report thanks for that one!

conserning your list:
could you see yourself cutting 1 ET, 1 CB, 1 TOP, 1 Expedition Map (is it needed?)
for:
1 STP (you really need that!!)
3 Spell Pierce (or 2 Spell Pierce 1 Spell Snare) or maybe even add 2 Ponder or even Terminus depending on your local meta of course.

you play 18 Blue spells including 4 force, I know this is the minimum requirement but I would feel more comfortable with view more blue spells.

especially for the RUG/UR-Delver matchups you need 4 STP. These are imo the harder matchups and I don't see many good cards against these kind of aggro decks beside CB and your combo which is often too slow or not?

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Originally Posted by Thorondor

nice report thanks for that one!

conserning your list:
could you see yourself cutting 1 ET, 1 CB, 1 TOP, 1 Expedition Map (is it needed?)
for:
1 STP (you really need that!!)
3 Spell Pierce (or 2 Spell Pierce 1 Spell Snare) or maybe even add 2 Ponder or even Terminus depending on your local meta of course.

you play 18 Blue spells including 4 force, I know this is the minimum requirement but I would feel more comfortable with view more blue spells.

especially for the RUG/UR-Delver matchups you need 4 STP. These are imo the harder matchups and I don't see many good cards against these kind of aggro decks beside CB and your combo which is often too slow or not?

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I don't think you can shave ETutor or Top with this deck. They're phenomenal. I can see cutting CB but that's a meta call and it's better than Spell Pierce against the big decks right now.

The fourth Swords is a maindecked Porphyry Nodes for the Delver matchup specifically- though I may move some stuff around to fit more maindeck removal just to put up better numbers there.

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Originally Posted by RPrajzner

I don't think you can shave ETutor or Top with this deck. They're phenomenal. I can see cutting CB but that's a meta call and it's better than Spell Pierce against the big decks right now.

The fourth Swords is a maindecked Porphyry Nodes for the Delver matchup specifically- though I may move some stuff around to fit more maindeck removal just to put up better numbers there.

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Nodes is such sick tech for against Mongeese and MoM. Way to go old school with it!

I'm curious on how to effectively use Porphyry Nodes. Do you wait for at least 2 creatures? Is the intent after its out to just slow the opponent down? Is it better than, say, Terminus?

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Originally Posted by matunos

I'm curious on how to effectively use Porphyry Nodes. Do you wait for at least 2 creatures? Is the intent after its out to just slow the opponent down? Is it better than, say, Terminus?

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I'm fine running Nodes out against just one creature. Goblin Guide and Delver put you on such a quick clock. Nodes really just helps you develop your mana and get to the midgame. Against Delver, I've found that you really can't just wait around to try and get maximum value out of your cards. I probably wouldn't play it against just a Mongoose though.

Terminus is certainly a sweet card that I will be trying soon!

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Originally Posted by RPrajzner

I'm fine running Nodes out against just one creature. Goblin Guide and Delver put you on such a quick clock. Nodes really just helps you develop your mana and get to the midgame. Against Delver, I've found that you really can't just wait around to try and get maximum value out of your cards. I probably wouldn't play it against just a Mongoose though.

Terminus is certainly a sweet card that I will be trying soon!

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In the situations you describe, isn't a StP better?

Probably, but E. Tutor gives you "5" Nodes on top of your StPs that may already have been spent/countered.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Probably, but E. Tutor gives you "5" Nodes on top of your StPs that may already have been spent/countered.

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That sounds very slow. If they have a Delver out, they can make 6 more damage before your upkeep with Nodes out if you have to E.Tutor for it. They can also just play another unflipped Delver / Mongoose to make 9 damage. That's a lot! I think I would rather have the 4th StoP main every day.

Sometimes they will have a hand where they can just power through a Nodes though that's typically only if you're almost dead. Swords is better there. Where Swords isn't better is turns 1-3. Yes, you'll still take some damage but it will also cause them to skip a turn of playing creatures. This extra time makes Nodes playable.

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Originally Posted by TkDodo

That sounds very slow. If they have a Delver out, they can make 6 more damage before your upkeep with Nodes out if you have to E.Tutor for it. They can also just play another unflipped Delver / Mongoose to make 9 damage. That's a lot! I think I would rather have the 4th StoP main every day.

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They only get 1 attack phase not 2. If they do play another creature they are giving up cards to the Nodes. I wouldn't play it over a 4th StP, but it is good in this deck and good against Shroud/protection etc. The Time Walk effect of not playing a creature when Nodes is out isn't bad either. Also you can drop it off SnT untap kill everything(Grissle still draws but w/e)

I dunno. I think I'm just gonna try a Bitterblossom, since I've already got black, and there's some synergy with SotM there.

In light of a recent push by Show and Tell decks, I recommend going back to the Red splash and using Pyroclasm/Firespout as the sweeper. It's weaker against Maverick, but more powerful against Blue combo (REB).

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Originally Posted by Koby

In light of a recent push by Show and Tell decks, I recommend going back to the Red splash and using Pyroclasm/Firespout as the sweeper. It's weaker against Maverick, but more powerful against Blue combo (REB).

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Pyroclasm and Firespout and still weak-ish when compared to Terminus, if you already run a maindeck configuration that can put them on top quite reliably.
The only advantage is avoiding Gaddock Teeg- in all the other scenarios, Terminus bypasses Mother of Runes, Daze, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, which the other two won't.

I agree though that Pyroblast is such a strong card with Show and Tell and UW Miracle on the rise. In reference to the latter, having a catchall for Jace, Snapcaster, Vendilion, and for every kind of Snare/Cspell/Pierce split gives you a lenghty edge. Thopter combo does the rest, if they don't see it coming.

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Originally Posted by Koby

In light of a recent push by Show and Tell decks, I recommend going back to the Red splash and using Pyroclasm/Firespout as the sweeper. It's weaker against Maverick, but more powerful against Blue combo (REB).

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With regard to Sneak Show, if you have Ensnaring Bridge and/or Humility, it is very hard for them to win. The decklist that just won SCG Nashville has 2 soft-outs to permanent-based hate in the SB (Echoing Truth). If you needle or totem Griselbrand, that stops their draw engine as well, decreasing the chances of them drawing one of those outs (and being able to kill you in one turn before you can re-cast it).

The Sneak Show deck that got 2nd place in SCG Orlando had one harder out in the SB in the form of Woodfall Primus, but that's it.

So, I think the standard anti-creature stuff is sufficient, especially considering they're tutorable and drawable in response to SnT (if you have a Top in play). It's Sneak Attack that is more frightening, because it sticks around and resolving a Griselbrand with it is devestating. Against Sneak Attack, BEB/Hydroblast seems sufficient (BEB is better, I think, because it's harder to Misdirect).

There's also the option of splashing black and using Terminus as the sweeper of choice. 1cc targeted discard is less narrow than REB/BEB/etc and is good in a wide-variety of combo and control matchups. Getting to see the opponent's hand is almost as valuable as discarding their best card. There are other valuable sideboard options in black, too.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

There's also the option of splashing black and using Terminus as the sweeper of choice. 1cc targeted discard is less narrow than REB/BEB/etc and is good in a wide-variety of combo and control matchups. Getting to see the opponent's hand is almost as valuable as discarding their best card. There are other valuable sideboard options in black, too.

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Discarding a card in the control mirror and tapping you out is exactly where you don't want to be. They have 4 Brainstorms, 4 Tops, and Spell Pierce. You negate your own Pierces and they can slam Counterbalance when you're tapped out.
Reactive vs proactive is an unfair fight if your deck does not play the proactive role well. Thopter doesn't at all.
REBs are fantastic counters that essentially trade their 2-3-4 mana for 1 of yours, and are immune to topdeck. They also serve as instant Vindicate, while topdecking a discard spell with a Jace stuck on the field doesn't smell that appealing.
Plus, discarding a Show and Tell is much worse that waiting for them to play it and counter it, if they don't see that coming. You essentially have REBs to counter Show and Tell and CB to lock the cantrips, until ENlightened Tutors arrive and you place 3 ccs and 4 ccs on top. This is quite difficult to assemble against competetent players, but REBs along with Pierces really help a lot in covering you where you are weakest: the first 3 turns.

With the print of Terminus, Black has lost lots of its appeal-which was mainly given by Perish and other quasi-sweeper to shore up the (bad) Maverick matchup. Extirpate isn't really a reason to run a colour, while REBs do stand alone.

To have hand information without playing cards that do not fit the deck's philosophy, Vendilion Clique is still the best weapon avaiable. A singleton Surgical may be fine, too, since it also screws up Counterbalance triggers and Top activations to miracle.

Cannonist, Clique, Spell Pierce, REB, Gilded Drake, Ensnaring Bridge, Meddling Mage,Pithing Needle, Cursed Totem, and Humility are all cards where you want to be.

We have access to most of these, and all of them if we want it. Drake is ideal (assuming they don't use Sneak attack) since they'll only have Force of Will to counter it (they don't run Snare). Also, if we choose to run Meddling Mage for Show and Tell, forcing them into the Sneak Attack gameplan and forcing them to have to resolve a 4-drop against Pierces and 4 drops in our Counterbalance curve seems saucy.

Cannonist is also the tits. You just wait for Sneak Attack/SnT, then counter it.

-Matt

Im suprised people arnt working on this at all.

I'm actually writing an article for Eternal Central on this right now.

Feel free to talk, I'll just sit here in the background with my clipboard.

In all honesty, I think going back to the red version is going to be much better going on, Merfolk is back, and REB is required to deal with Show and Tell.

My new list is something like:

6 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Tomb
1 landy

3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce

3 Counterblaance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor

3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
1 Cursed Totem
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Poryphyry Nodes

1 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels (trying these two out)

--BOARD--
1 Ensnaring Bridge (for all the Sneak, but also for Merfolk. So many Lords mean Bridge is a tank)
1 Circle: Red
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Back to Basics
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Moat
1 Flusterstorm
2 REB
2 Firespout
1 Pyroclasm

Thoughts?

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I'm actually writing an article for Eternal Central on this right now.

Feel free to talk, I'll just sit here in the background with my clipboard.

In all honesty, I think going back to the red version is going to be much better going on, Merfolk is back, and REB is required to deal with Show and Tell.

My new list is something like:

6 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Tomb
1 landy

3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce

3 Counterblaance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor

3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
1 Cursed Totem
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Poryphyry Nodes

1 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels (trying these two out)

--BOARD--
1 Ensnaring Bridge (for all the Sneak, but also for Merfolk. So many Lords mean Bridge is a tank)
1 Circle: Red
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Back to Basics
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Moat
1 Flusterstorm
2 REB
2 Firespout
1 Pyroclasm

Thoughts?

-Matt

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i have been playing the terminus with two in the main and one in the board and it has been really good. it gives the deck the ability to have a edge against maverick and Canadian threshold. it also has a non zero effect on other match ups like enchantress. i have also been playing entreat the angels , it is slow but it works very well in control mirrors.