The list is somewhat going for a manadenial plan, but im not sure if this really works. It looks like a bad version of pox combined with the creatures of TheGate .... i really dont know about this :/
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The list is somewhat going for a manadenial plan, but im not sure if this really works. It looks like a bad version of pox combined with the creatures of TheGate .... i really dont know about this :/
@Augustas:
How many copies of Jitte do you run? Two? Or Three? I would not run Bonehoard in Jitte's place - it is too strong for that. But I can see it being useful in other scenarios.
A mana denial strategy like that has enormous potential. But I would cut Rishidan Ports for more swamp. And I replace Hypnotic Specter with Bitterblossom. The list could probably get away with cutting a few Cabal Therapy for Go for the Throat as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by dsck
Basically this...
Creatures [16]
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Bitterblossom
Instants [4]
4 Dark Ritual
Sorceries [16]
2 Go for the Throat
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize
Artifacts [2]
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands [22]
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
14 Swamp
Sideboard [15]
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Engineered Plague
3 Perish
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Mindbreak Trap
It's a bad Pox list. On top of that, Sinkhole seems to be an incredibly irrelevant card right now.With all the vial decks floating around, how much good will it do you to blow up one land?
Let's get back into some discussion and some thought process:
What are the pro's and con's about Bitterblossom?
It is slow and costs life, but the tokens can be flashbacked and can stall. It can win a game, but often it is a very very bad topdeck. Its casting cost fits smoothly, but the question is, if there is no better threat? We can't profit with Spellstutter Sprite, and in general it is "just" dropping random 1/1 Flyiers.
Whats your opinion? Is there something better or is Bitterblossom the optimum. How do you feel about synergies here?
First I wanted to let you know, that my testings regarding SDT are going surprisingly well, but that just as a side note.
Here my thoughts concerning Blossom:
Pros:
+ "With Jitte, it is purely sensational" / seems even overpowered sometimes ;)
+ "these tokens fly" -> again a jitte-push, can deal with flying creatures! Nice to have other answers than "dropkick"-persecutor for them
+ takes life instead of mana and lets us use our LP as an additional energy-source to beat the opponent/ protect ourselves
+ creates useful blockers (for big dudes, as well as aggro-swarms)
+ can be consumed for innocent blood, cabal therapy (!) -> awesome hand removal/hand-destruction without hurting our threats
+ It provides cardadvantage in my eyes -> one of the core-thoughts of this deck
+ "It is just so annoying to deal with. You just continue to stockpile Faeries every turn and just beat an opponent down."
+ strong engine with bob -> autocasting critters and drawing answers/threats/handdestruction
+ The self-running effect can defuse many lock-situations, so that you can match forces/regain pressure
(I always have to think about several matches against a friend of mine here. He played Reanimator and got down Iona, but with a resolved Blossom and Jitte i was able to rock anyway :))
+ hard to remove for many decks, protects jitte passively by being a considerable target for destruction/counter-magic
Cons:
- we cannot cancel / have to live with it, when it resolved, even when our LP reach the bottom
-> if the enemy can deny our lifegain-plan, were screwed much faster
- in some games it is too slow (it doesnt help that much, if pressure has to be set up till turn 3/4)
- quite heavy lifeloss, when bob/2nd blossom is stacked above
- can be a decent topdeck in a progressed game-state
=>Overall, it grants us a great flexibility and supports different playstiles of this deck. I would agree, that it "maybe the heart and soul of the deck". Its a great card, that outweights its cons by far. It should be very hard (maybe impossible) to find a card being able to match for the slot.
I am curious to hear other thougts. Because sometimes I am overcome by the same doubts, too, sporenfrosch ^^.
I'm new to playing this archetype, and I understand there's quite a bit already established about the deck. This list is what I put together, using limited resources.
Creatures:
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Tombstalker
2 Shriekmaw
Spells:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Chainer's Edict
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Phyrexian Arena
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands:
3 Bojuka Bog
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Dust Bowl
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Marsh Flats
10 Swamp
Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Raven's Crime
1 Worm Harvest
There are some interesting choices in the deck, so feel free to question/critique the list. I'll address a few obvious choices now:
1. No Dark Confidant: I don't have access to a playset, so I opted for the Tombstalker/Fetchland build instead, using Phyrexian Arena to draw cards. Arena sticks around longer than Confidant would, resulting in more card advantage for less life loss.
2. Dark Ritual: I run it because in most match-ups you have to play aggressively to make your disruption relevant. The deck also has quite a few things in the 3cc slot, so running these levels out your curve. Even when you draw the card late game, it is never totally dead, as you can pour extra mana into Shade, Flashing back Edict, or hardcasting Tombstalker. It also makes your sideboard fast enough to be relevant ex. turn 1 Engineered Plague/turn 2 Disk.
3. No Wasteland: I have no access to wasteland, but even if I did, I'm not 100% sure running a playset would be the right call in this deck.
4. The interesting sideboard package: The Crucible of Worlds + Retrace mechanic allow me to grind out slow control decks like Landstill and slower CounterTop.
I did the same when I started to play the deck; all can say is "get confidants ASAP", the difference is really big.Quote:
1. No Dark Confidant: I don't have access to a playset, so I opted for the Tombstalker/Fetchland build instead, using Phyrexian Arena to draw cards. Arena sticks around longer than Confidant would, resulting in more card advantage for less life loss.
I don't know if this could work, but I would try it only if I was playing Wasteland.Quote:
4. The interesting sideboard package: The Crucible of Worlds + Retrace mechanic allow me to grind out slow control decks like Landstill and slower CounterTop.
The main strength of Bitterblossom is against removal-heavy decks, when you are trying to stick a Jitte, and against control decks, when it just keep spitting free 1/1 flying faeries building pressure.
Against the former, our discard outlet and our creature base could well be enough.
Against the last, cutting bitterblossom would mean going a more disrup-cast-attack midrage plan, and I feel that this is a strong plan as well.
If you are using 2 Jittes only, then maybe Bitterblossom won't be missed. If you are using 3 Jitte, I feel that BB is the faster and most resiliant jitte carrier, so I woudn't cut it.
I can only suggest that you try to remove it and play against decks packing heavy removal, and see how it goes. I suggest extra disruption in its spot, to deal with their removal, maybe additional duress/IoK?
How does your list look like right now, sporenfrosch?
This is my most recent list:
Maindeck (61cards):
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bitterblossom
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Innocent Blood
3 Go for the Throat
20 Swamp
Sideboard (15 cards):
4 Disfigure (you should test this out, it is so amazing versus goblins and merfolk)
4 Extirpate (versatile random 4 off, can be used in many matchups)
4 Chalice of the Void (versus combo@0/1 and even versus burn@1)
3 Engineered Plague / Thorn of Amethyst (depending on meta: Plague vs Tribal/Thopter; Thorn vs Combo)
Not much has changed at the moment, as you can see. I went up to 20 Swamps which feels more consistent. My Sideboard is somewhat focussed on Tribal or Combo with the versatile random 4-off Extirpate. At the moment, i am looking for an alternative to Bitterblossom, something faster, something even more threatening and versatile. This is very experimental and for now, i will keep Bitterblossom, but i am looking forward to test out the following, and more:
Nantuko Shade - We have lots of removal, chances is he gets through unblocked.His casting cost is nice. Downside is he consumes all the mana which i doubt can be spent and that his unpumped body is really bad.
Black Knight - Casting cost is smooth, protection from swords is good, gets through Knight of the Reliquary/blocks him. Downside is that 2/2 for 2 is not good at all. It randomly dies to most Legacy stuff, probably is not worth itself.
Hand of Cruelty - basically a black knight, but can kill Pridemage/Wild Nacatl and the same that Black Knight can (see above). Maybe worth trying, but it's nowhere close to beeing a real threat....
What are more options @ cc2 ? Is there something more threatening, something ..... like a tarmogoyf
To start with, does it have to be a critter? I'd rather go +1 Hymn +1 GftT, and cut back to 60, and test it that way to see how it goes. In which situations do you believe Bitterblossom to be subpar? Against the open field?
Now, if you think you need more aggro, dunno the reason, or the matchups you'd be better against, Nantuko Shade is the best 2cc creature, exactly because he trumphs tarmogoyf if needed, most of the time, and finish fast if we got enough removal to back him up. His ability is the opposing of "consumes too much mana". Instead, you got to use your mana when you have nothing else to use it with.
The second best 2cc, IMO, is Stromgald Crusader, since it'd fly.
If you just want a end-game heavy hitter to win against open board, or to hit control hard enough, Arrogant Bloodlord looks like a fair option, with the downsize that he doesn't go through goyf all the time.
Arrogant Bloodlord, to be honest, has caught my attention as well. Its a very interesting creature. Since we allready are at discussing somewhat "absurd" creatures (in the meaning, that they never got play in legacy) i also tend to look at Fledgling Djinn and Oona's Prowler. Both of which are interesting creatures, but i am just "playing mind-magic" here ;)
Prowler is especially interesting seeing that we discard allready, so most of the time on the paper its just a 3/1 flyer for cc2. And considering the idea of card advantage, why not let your opponent discard a card, to deal with this guy for an attack.
I know, i am bringing up weird choices here, but why not discuss it :)
Oona's Prowler fails in the sense that it's another one of the classically bad extortion cards. While I admit it's better than the others, you don't want to give your opponent.
And Fledgling Djinn just kind of blows....
Let me make clear what bothers me about Bitterblossom at the moment:
It takes a turn to cast it, then a turn and a life to get a token, and the next (3rd) turn, you can finally attack with a 1/1 Flyer plus have a 1/1 Flyer that has summoning sickness. Basically, it is very very slow. I found myself to dislike it, drawing Bitterblossom later than turn 3, because it does not have a "direct" impact. You drop an enchantment and then you have to wait a turn for it to provide a single 1/1 flyer. It is great if you drop it turn2 or 3, but even then it is not fast enough to take control versus aggro. It is without any doubt really good versus anything controlish, that lacks mass removal. Once it hits the board, its a hard time for them. The flashback potential is nice, and having another out to play an innocent blood while keeping, for example, your Nighthawk is good, but i still feel like there could be something better in this slot.
I would not trade the slot for anything else but a permanent threat though.
Again: I don't think Bitterblossom is a bad card at all, but i somehow can't see it beeing used to its full potential without blue. I am just looking for what could be an alternative that is faster. But maybe i will just keep the Blossoms, since there just does not seem to be anything more threatening....
By the way:
I have a really hard time dealing with Affinity. I am considering Null Rod, because it also deals with MUD-Archetypes and can be annoying for LED/Petal/Chrome Mox based combo decks - BUT that would also disable my Divining Tops and Jittes.
At the moment i board out 3 Go for the Throat for 3 Disfigure, but that is not close to enough, and i keep getting swarmed. Innocent Blood also is irrelevant many times, because of Frogmite and Memnite. Maybe i'm doing something wrong here......
Btw: the versions i am facing tend to have Etched Champion while at the same time swarms of random meat. Ratchet Bomb sucks btw versus affinity, its way too slow, Powder Keg would be an option, but it is so bad in many other matchups, that i don't think it really makes it into my sideboard. So basically, coming back to Null Rod, this is the only possible choice. I would have to board out all Jitte then though and both Tops....
Give me some help on this :)
I have found Bitteblossom awesome when I manage slow opponent down with Duress/Cabal Therapy/Deathmark/Disfigure/Innocent Blood (All 1cmc cards, 2cmc cards are usually too slow) and after that you have card advantage online and you just start dropping nighthawks/Gatekeepers and add jitte or Abyssal to finish them.
Against affinity I'd mulligan into Nighthawk or Null Rod from SB. I also have 2 Dark Rituals to help me fight explosive game plans but G1 without SB Affinity is very hard. Bitterblossom/Cabal Therapy/Hymn and Nighthawk are the best cards in this game I think. I bring 2 Pithing Needle/Revoker to name Cranial Plating + 2 Null Rod and maybe Rituals depending if im on the play. Jittes/Go for the throats and Sensei's Divining Tops are what I'd side out.
Short and quick:
Did a 1-3 today
Opponent 1 -> Affinity
Double beatdown so fast, could not handle it at all. Go for the Throat.....ftl (for the loose) in game1, game 2 he swarms so heavily, that all my sac effects are useless.
0-2
Opponent 2 -> Homebrew Ashnod's Altar/Emrakul/Saproling something green white with mass enchantments
He plays Hierarchs, Saproling Bursts, Saproling Cluster, Fecundity and some other interesting stuff. It can easily go Infinite Turn4 (Emrakul bounced with Karakas, turn, play again and on). Too much tokens prevent my sacrifice effects to deal with Emrakul.
1-2
Opponent 3 -> MUD (with Goblin Welder)
Go for the Throat .... yay....while he powers out turn2 Steel Hellkite and i just don't draw anything
Game 2 Welder manages to get back what i destroy...whatever.
Opponent 4 -> BYE
Yay, a favorable matchup at last. Sorry for the sarcasm here.
For now, i will give the deck a rest. It feels like i need something "broken" now. I don't want to see my opponent Topdeck while i stockpile discard or have massive sacrifice effects and leave my opponent the choice to sac what he likes while he stacks random meat. I need something more than a cc4 Demon that takes 3 rounds to win (check it out, most of the times it is 3 rounds) and can still get removed.
I am not saying that TheGate is bad in general, but it has so many problems. I feel like the Deck is holding me back at the moment, its just oldschool magic, nothing fancy nothing broken, all sorcery. Its like you play chess while your opponent plays real time strategy. The Deck just can not adapt to so many things, it just can hate on some Archetypes - thats not enough for me at the time. Yes, i know these matchups today just were bad matchups, but hey, there is a lot more of bad matchups, and just a few that are favorable.
Went 3-2 today with 5 rounds of swiss and 28 players. I was 8th but there were 6 or 7 players with 3-2 record :P Ironically the top decks were W/G decks and I didnt get to face them after I muliganed into oblivion in match 3 and 4.
Match 1 Burn 2-0
G1 Night hawk + Jitte after Innocent Blood and Hymn or Cabal = gg. G2 He drew 4 Mountains in a row after Searing Blazing 2 Nighthawks.
Match 2 Merfolk with black splash 2-1
I lost G2 to manascrew.
Match 3 W/B Death's Shadow.deck
G1 I mulligan nolander hands and keep a hand of 4 cards and he thoughtseizes me :D Fair game. G2 I mulligan to 5 I think and lose to my Bitterblossom. He topdecked Stoneforge Mystic to destroy my Jitte, ugh.
Match 4 Affinity 0-2
I mulligan into oblivion due to getting hands with 4 lands and 2 Persecutors or no lands at all. Didnt draw my Null Rods or see them in any hands either.
Match 5 UBg Depths CBtop 2-1
G1 I mulligan and keep 1 land + SDT hand (I was tired of mulliganing), it was too slow and I scooped after my opponent got 20/20 flying Indestructible creature and Confidant to sac for innocent blood. G2 I roll over him with 6/6 Demon while he has CB lock. G3 I get Persecutor down while drawing gas from Confidant, my opponent has cb lock and tries to stop me from getting rid of Persecutor but that didnt work out so well.
My sideboard was quite useless apart from Phyrexian Revoker and Pithing Needle the whole day. I would have had 3 Dystopia and 2 Deathmarks for the GW matchup which is already quite good.
Went 4-0 (8-0) today in a 12 player tournament and got a Tropical Island.
So after arriving the tournament site with the last possible train and entering 13.59 (starts 14.00) Ii quickly check what the meta seems to be. No affinity around -> Null Rods out and some extra hate for Goblins and Elves.
Match 1 Valakut Ramp 2-0
Not much to say here.
Match 2 Burn 2-0
He has maindeck searing blazes(!), but he has to fireblast + chain lightning my abyssal in response to jitte equip. Discard bought me time. G2 I duress him turn 1, turn 2 ritual into Abyssal, turn 3 duress + revoker naming grim lavamancer (he had 1 in play + in hand),.
Match 3 GRw Loam 2-0
G1 I play duress, hymn, hymn, remove his threat and roll over him with Abyssal. G2 I side out blossoms, disfigures and duresses (he plays chalice and burning wish -> maybe firespout in sb). I remove his threats easily and finish him with Persecutor.
Match 4 Combo Elves with Emrakul as finisher. 2-0
G1 Bitterblossom + Jitte + Confidant. G2 I play 3 Engineered Plagues AND Dystopia, fair game.
My list was:
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Bitterblossom
3 Jitte
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Disfigure
2 Go For the Throat
4 Innocent Blood
19 Swamp
SB
2 Deathmark
2 Dark Ritual
3 Dystopia
3 Engineered Plague
1 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Leyline of the Void
Here's a list that did quite well at the Jace-a-Thon in Ann Arbor, Michigan over the weekend.
Top 8 – Mackenzie Doyle – MonoBlack Beats
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Tombstalker
2 Shriekmaw
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
4 Chainers Edict
4 Dark Ritual
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Phyrexian Arena
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
3 Bojuka Bog
10 Swamp
Pay very close attention to the fact that Dark Confidant, Abyssal Persecutor, and Bitterblossom are all absent.
Which, in my opinion, turns it into another deck. It isn't because the deck is a monoblack disruption+aggro that it fits The Gate, imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by umbowta