Is anyone using Grapeshot/Tendrils anymore or is Emrakul the only 'real' win con now...just curious...I'm going to invest in some cards soon, most likely Living Wish x3 + package if that's the only competitive way to go...
Printable View
Is anyone using Grapeshot/Tendrils anymore or is Emrakul the only 'real' win con now...just curious...I'm going to invest in some cards soon, most likely Living Wish x3 + package if that's the only competitive way to go...
hey K2, I'm about to update my elf-deck and would like a final build of yours. I don't know if Vengine is about to take place in SB or what really happend to that idea. So please upload a deck list. :) So i know which cards to buy.
I go back and forth between wish and non wish. Wish is slightly more consistent, but it doesn't allow for VV in the board.
Wish build:
4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
6 Forest
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
3 Living Wish
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wirewood Symbiote
SB:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
1 Masticore
1 Regal Force
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Viridian Zealot
Straight Combo:
2 Bayou
4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
5 Forest
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wirewood Symbiote
SB:
4 Buried Alive
3 Krosan Grip
4 Vengevine
4 Vexing Shusher
Why do you run Vexing shusher in the list without living wish and Leylines in the one with? Is there something I'm missing?Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
edit: Yay!! I can finally see the 60th page and also post in it!
I did some goldfishing in magic workstation comparing two builds (played 71 games with each build).
My numbers where are very different than what was posted so far.
When you goldfish do you start counting by T0 or T1?!
I started counting by T1 and here are my results:
K2's wish list:
T2: started combo: 14% finished successfully 40%
T3: started combo: 31% finished successfully 100%
T4: started combo: 35% finished successfully 100%
the "not successful" times i combo in t2 except for 1-2 times it should be game winning...
My current list (not sure if it is really good, but i am testing):
// Lands
2 Gaea's Cradle
3 Forest
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
// Creatures
1 Elvish Archdruid
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
2 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Regal Force
3 Birchlore Rangers
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Joraga Warcaller
// Spells
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Thoughtseize
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Diabolic Intent
// Sideboard
1 Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip
4 Natural Order
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Choke
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Essence Warden
The results with my list where:
T2: started 6% finisehd successful 75%
T3: started 39% finished successful 64%
T4: started 35% finished successful 96%
again the times where I started to combo in T3 and did not finish it should be very often game winning.
Some additional stats that might be relevant:
In 25% before I started to combo I was able to play protection (thoughtseize)
I used diabolic intent 13% of the time to tutor for glimpse or an important elve.
Altough the differences of the decks might not be that big on the first sight, they play very different.
With k2's build it is really very powerful to just get an archdruid and many elves on the board (if you don't have a glimpse) and just topdeck a pact or a wish (for regal force) or a visionary/wirewood engine. I was also surprised how big the difference of the consistency of the combo is!!!
The wish build is defenitely more fun when goldfishing, however if you don't happen to play affinity you will always have to consider how they will disrupt you and therefore operate most of the times differently. I feel that thoughtseize helps a lot in real games...
What I also don't like about the wish build is that you have to sacrifice a lot from your sideboard. In my current build I have some options to side in choke/cabal/essence warden/caller of the claw/fecundity/mindbreak trap,... altough I keep the combo in. The wish build is either pure combo or leyline/aggro and I feel that does not cover the variety of legacy decks out there and it cannot be adapted to meta game.
For example: what do you do vs. merfolk? -> combo is tough because of 4fow/4dazer, but you probably won't out aggro them....
or blue combo decks like high tide or sneak & tell, painted stone, counter-top, thopter which use countermagic and I see very little chances to win against those decks with the aggro build.
Looking forward to hear from you!
If your goldfish numbers are really completely different, maybe I can share my screen and play in front of you ... then you can tell me what I do wrong. :)
@Catmint as soon as I get the time I will do some goldfishes and post the results. I'll also try to post how I went off so we can see if I really play that differently. I start counting it as turn 1. So turn 1 play a land put Llanowar elves down. turn 2 play another land, If I go off now it would be a turn 2 goldfish. What I would be interested in knowing is when you play against opponents, how often did thoughtseize get a card that was important?
Shusher makes buried alive uncounterable. There are no non-creature spells post board in the wish build so there is no need for shusher.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
Most of the time you get a card with thoughtseize that is important. Most common: FoW, daze, inquisition/thoughtseize, swords, ligtning bolt, sd.top, counterbalance, EE, trinket mage, firesput, perish, chalice, enlightened tutor,... if not a card that hurts us, then a card that helps him to be faster like a combo piece.
Yes, but it also slows us down too. It rather not decrease the potency of the deck to add a tiny little bit of disruption.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
No further comments to my goldfishing K2?
When will you finish your testing?
It's great data. We def need as much as we can get. I do think I might be able to make a couple suggestions to some of your playing decisions, as this is the only thing I can think of that would account for the differences in our stats.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
As for my testing, my magic time has actually been a bit distracted from elves lately. This is the first time this has happened in a very long time, but I am developing a new mono black deck that I think has potential to be very, very good in the current format.
would you be up for screen sharing?
I played Elves today at a 38-player event, with some pretty high player quality (at least four players in the field had SCG Legacy Open top 8s). I was the #1 seed after Swiss, but unfortunately lost a close match to Junk in the top 8 in which I mulled to 5 game two, and in game three had basically everything go wrong for me and everything go right for my opponent.
I would consider cutting two Birchlore Rangers from this deck for a 4th Symbiote and 4th Visionary, as I felt the Birchlores weren't that necessary and were often being sided out. I beat Goblins, Merfolk, Merfolk, and Affinity in the Swiss. Here's the list as I played it:
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Summoner’s Pact
2 Genesis Wave
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Regal Force
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
6 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Null Rod
3 Viridian Shaman
1 Reverent Silence
Yea, that reverent silence would have been a spicy board card against me, shame we both got knocked out before it came to that.
Do you like the Genesis Waves over the 4th Pact and the 4th Visionary? I have been playing lists with and without wave and I am torn. What are you normally casting it for?
I drew Wave 4 times during the tournament. 3 Times I cast it, and I won all 3 games. The 4th time it was Thoughtseized out of my hand. I think the card is great; 2 seemed like the right number.
If I had to cut anything, it would be 1-2 Birchlore Rangers. I was pretty ok with just the 3 Pacts.
By the way, was good talking to you today, and nice job on the top 8.
I have a question for k2thej,
I have been reading this thread for awhile and have begun testing the wish build, so far I have tested against goblins and have good results against them. Now I'm testing against a control deck I saw on the forums, a U/R Trinket Mage deck, and I can not to seem to win against it pre or post board.
Heres the List I'm testing against:
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 "Volcanic Island
7 Island
3 Mountain
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins
3 Trinket Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire//Ice
2 Fire Sprout
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Pithing Needle
1 Meekstone
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Chalice of the Void
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
My decklist is similar to yours except for my side, which I added KGrips and BBog.
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
1 Masticore
1 Regal Force
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Krosan Grip
Any advice on how to beat a deck like this?
This is obviously a very tough matchup, because he has everything that hurts us so much in multiplse and tutorable. :) In my build I would go for Progenitus post board. He surely has answers to that (jace, meekstone, countermagic), but I should have better odds...Quote:
Originally Posted by llSaintll
So I would side out:
4 pact -> 4 natural order
3 glimpse -> 3 krosan grip
emrakul -> progenitus
1 quirion -> 1 cabal therapy
2th quirion -> choke
1 birchlore -> 1 caller of e claw
This is precisely the type of matchup that makes me lean towards VV and Buried Alive in the board. I think the benefits of having them in the board probably do outweigh the benefits of wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by llSaintll
sure would lveo to goldfish together. Would you pm me your skype contact?Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
Why do you prefer vengevine/buried alive over natural order/progenitus?Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
I would take 1 Fyndhorn elves out, and 1 Land or another Llanowar. You can start to combo so many times only with Nettle and Birchlore, reducing them to 2 would suck.Quote:
Originally Posted by voltron00x
I would suggest to cut 1 Archdruid or 1 Quirion but, playing Genesis Wave you need big amounts of mana, so maybe it's not a good idea.
To Catmint:
Vengevine - 4 creatures, 4 threats // NO - 1 creature.
Vengevine - Comes back // NO critt. - Does not