yes...but those two come out on different turns.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey
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yes...but those two come out on different turns.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey
[sarcasm]I agree. you could just play 4xLeatherback Baloth instead. I mean its the same thing for 1 more mana right?[/sarcasm]Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
Hymn and thoughtseize stock the graveyard with different card types. This makes goyf better in this deck than any other. Why would you not play 4?
[sarcasm]Yeah. Most decks dont run gamebreaking first turn plays like Aether Vial, Goblin Lackey or Wild Nacatal. I dont mind when TES plays duress on my and takes my turn 2 hymn either. Infact i prefer to slowroll my discard instead of taking their early plays in a deck that has a natural tempo disadvantage.[/sarcasm]Quote:
Granted, so is grabbing a win condition from belcher or a tutor from TES, but the cases for T1 Thoughtseize being game-breaking are much more narrow.
Seriously, play standard instead if you think pay 1 mana: do nothing is the best turn 1 play.
@Goyf debate
Rock is the best deck to run Goyf in. If you want KotR IN YOUR HAND in the rock over goyf, by all means try it. The extra 1 mana matters a lot to me.
But I really hope that everyone realizes that contrary to what had been implied by CorpT, there IS a singleton Jitte in the deck. Moondark, if you look at the list he does run Stoneforge Mystic.
Mystique is not = Mystic. One is a quality, which makes it sound like we're playing some kind of enchant creature. I really dislike when secondary spellings become really popular, and I'm sorry for singling out your misuse.
@kubalonek
My suggestion would be
-1 BoP (you already run 1 dryad arbor, which is better with GSZ)
-2 KotR (harder to run w/ less accel)
+1 Tarmogoyf (lower cc beaters > higher cc beaters)
-1 SDT
+3 Vindicate/Pulse
I think you lose less than taking out all 3 sdt, but seeing sdt in multiples really isn't good with this deck. Now, you've got a deck that depends slightly more on GSZ (less threats, less sifters), but it's got 3 Vindicate/Pulse like you wanted.
You guys must be playing a different deck than I am if you're considering cutting any of the following: 4x Knight, 4x Bob, 3x Top.
Cutting threats for removal spells is the wrong move, imo. You don't cut KotR (ever really), but you certainly don't then replace him with removal spells like Vindicate.
Some of the worst advice ever given has just been presented in the last two pages. No offense to some people, but please don't do certain things, unless you have a really good reason.
Firstly, Bracer, don't cut Dark Confidant. He's massive amounts of card advantage, and I wouldn't cut Tops. Ever played Topdeck mode? It really sucks. Since you don't play blue, you have nothing to filter with. Use Top, it's really good at card quality, not card advantage. If I didn't get them too often in games, I'd play 4.
Tarmogoyf is great, I'd advise you to play 4, unless you have NOTHING else to cut in a GSZ build. Non-Zenith builds should be playing 4, unless you're on a budget. With 3-4 GSZ, it could be acceptable to run 3, but if you have room, play 4 if possible. Beaters are good.
Jitte is very good as well. If you can, I'd fit it in over, say, Elspeth. If you're having trouble fitting it in, make it your 61st :P
Yeah, it seems like GSZ is taking the Vindicate slot. I don't think you can really fit both into the deck unless you cut Jitte, which is a pretty mediocre decision I'd say. Right now, I'm trying 1-2 GSZ just for a Pridemage and having a few extra virtual threats, so we'll see how it goes.
All in all, we basically won the last two opens if not for folding and nerves. We all deserve a pat on the back :)
-Matt
Vindicate, just by itself, is extremely powerful. Combine it with Wasteland (KotR by extension I suppose) and Hymn, and you have a brutal resource disruption plan. Yes, it's not as good versus fast decks, but if the format slows down slightly (as people are predicting due to MM), then I see Vindicate gaining more power and a midrange meta ripe for the picking. You guys must really, really like having a toolbox option over the raw power of "I will blow up anything I want".
With the printing of Mental Misstep, should Go for the Throat replace Swords to Plowshares in Rock lists?
Against decks like Goblins (which will probably be running MM), a countered STP is just game over. GFTT kills pretty much everything in the format without the risk of a sneaky counter.
I know that in Legacy, the difference between one mana and two is huge, and I know there will be plenty of times when I'll kick myself because I want to play a Knight and have STP up, but the benefits might outweigh the costs.
And as a side note, GFTT is less obvious when you leave the mana up for it. One untapped white source pretty much screams STP, but two untapped sources might mean you don't have any action or that you just didn't have enough mana for that Knight or Vindicate you're sitting on. Just a thought.
Why would Goblins run MM? What 1 drop are they trying to stop? What are they taking out to put it in? The only 1 drop they could want to stop is opposing MM because they fold to it so hard. I doubt Goblins will such much play at Providence because it is so reliant on Lackey/Via and thus so vulnerable to MMl. Merfolk, on the other hand... they will likely run MM and will be improved significantly with it. The solution is most likely Deed or Explosives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Derm
It's still a little hard to say, but I would expect Swords to remain the best generic removal while sweeps like Deed and Explosive pick up a little power to get around MM.
this is starting to really get on my nerves, the mm argument. I'm so sick of the, "this costs 1 cmc, it gets countered by mm, therefore it's bad." Yes, mm is good. However it won't kill every single deck in existence. yes, it will sometimes just be irritating to have a crucial spell countered by mm. It's a good card. But, every deck won't run it. Everyone claims that every single deck that is viable in legacy will either run 4 main and if not, then sideboarded. mm is good, but ultimately the reason why not every deck will run it is because sometimes a spell snare can be a dead card. in essence, that what it is, It's a spell snare in which you take off a mana and a 1 on the cmc for countering.
I agree, Mental Misstep will be good, but what is even worse is starting your decks mana curve on two so they don't have anything to target.
I was testing Mental Misstep in a variety of decks and I've come to this conclusion:
Mental Misstep is good in the following:
Thopters
Bant
Aggro-Bant/NO Bant
Merfolk
Dreadstill
Mental Misstep is bad in the following:
Zoo
Junk
Goblins
Elves
Storm
----
See a pattern? My god, in blue based decks, MM is good! Usually, I've found it replaces mainboard Spell Pierce or Spell Snare. It's a great card, don't get me wrong, but I was plowing through it all day long with Rock. Yes, sometimes you get hosed. Other times, you don't. I'm not going to play sub-optimally because a card exists. In essence, I shouldn't play counterable spells due to the presence of Force of Will. Guess what? Force is played in more decks than MM will be! *World ends*
It's bad in not Dreadstill/Bant/Folk because what do you take out? I wouldn't ever take out Nacatl, Vial, Lackey, Thoughtseize, Dark Ritual, etc. There's no room in those decks for this card, and even if you make room, the deck doesn't get better. Misttep will make all-in turn 1 or one drops worse, and I see Goblins suffering a tiny bit, since you no longer have to Force Lackey all day. It also means the opponent can counter a Thoughtseize for free on the draw. Should this card have been printed? No, not at all, free counters are bad. Is it ruining the format? As far as I've tested, no. Please, get on with your lives and plow through it. We're the Rock, for Christ's sakes.
----- END RANT----
On another note, I was playing this list all day and so far, I'm loving it.
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Swamp/Volrath's Stronghold
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
3 Bayou
24
4 Knight of the R.
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Qasali Pridemage/Gaddock Teeg
4 Dark Confidant
14
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Pl.
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's D. Top
3 Vindicate
21
It had problems with a resolved Progenitus, but that's to be expected. I went at least 50-50 against NO Bant and Merfolk, which is kind of the middle ground expectation of a large tournament.
My board so far is this:
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Deed
1 Cannonist
2 Engineered Plague
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Needle/Tariff
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Bojuka Bog/Loaming Shaman
Thoughts?
-Matt
@ sdematt:
I think I agree with the 3/3 Waste/Vindicate. They seem like cards which, particularly in this deck, should be auto 4-4's. In regards to Waste our deck requires color fixing insanely bad and opening a Waste in hand with only 1 other land has often made me mull an otherwise good hand. Not to mention that because we have KotR we can actually tutor it (heck, I could even see justification for going down to 2 although I wouldn't go for the toolbox 1-of). As for Vindicate I like the ability to nix permanants that may slip through discard but in most scenario's I've found it to be a 3cc creature removal which essentially eats up my entire turn which isn't always ideal, particularly when I want to drop a threat.
Cut 1 Scrubland for Savannah? I'm currently running a 3/2/1/ of Scrub/Bay/Sav. May just be a personal preference, but sometimes when I start drawing into creatures having G/W is more relevant than the black. *shrugs*
I may opt to follow your MD Jittes. I've been toying with Stoneforge toolbox on and off but lately I've found myself returning to the Mox crutch (for shame x.x). Equipments are always nice. Although sometimes I feel 15 threats is a tad light for me although I guess Bob/Top get there as they always do (and in your case you have E. Tutor in the SB if necessary).
@ MM. By the gods! With this + 4 MD Revoker in every deck Legacy will inevitably turn into a single decklist![/sarcasm]
Theres no doubt about it that MM will see play, however our deck isn't one that wants or particularly needs it. Our threat base is strong because it is a universal answer. We can affect any deck regardless of archetype,mana curve, or build. Conditional cards aren't going to improve the deck by any means. Yeah, there are times when a StP on my KotR or a T1 Vial can be annoying. But there are an equal number of times where it would be even more annoying to draw a MM and have them cast a 2+cc threat that I can't deal with because I've drawn a MM.
In decks such as the aformentioned (Merfolk, Dreadstill, etc.) it is doubtful MM will replace FoW/Daze. It's meant to net the few cards that might get around FoW/Daze and will essentially replace the Spell Pierce/Snare slot (of which I actually prefer Pierce as it is so easy to catch the opponent tapped out and it applies to far more cards). If they don't draw into MM, fine, they still have 8 backup counters to deal with whatever your attempting to resolve. What happens if the opponent attempts to cast the 1cc and we don't have MM? It resolves. For us to maximize the chance of drawing it a 4-of would be required. MM is a reactive card, and Rock's strength comes from proactive threats.
What would you even suggest taking out/replacing? Rock's list is already pretty tight. Of course there is variance but a majority of Rock's lists typically only have 3-5 flex spots. Most Rock players have reached the consensus that the deck is threat-light and as such reserve the last remaining spots for more creatures or meta cards like Deed.
.02$ have been deposited into the account of MM.
Forlorn Egoist
My .50 cents on MM. Clearly playing suboptimal cards because of the existence of 1 card is terrible.
You are so right matt. Let me help you make a decklist for this.Quote:
I shouldn't play counterable spells due to the presence of Force of Will. Guess what? Force is played in more decks than MM will be!
4 Akroma, Angel of Fury
4 Autumn's Veil
4 Banefire
4 blurred Mongoose
4 demonfire
4 Gaea's Revenge
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 spellbreaker Behemoth
4 scragnoth
4 choke
4 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
16 lands
Sideboard:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Wild Nacatal
3 boil
Ok this deck will be really amazing against anything that plays force of will. They will have 4 dead cards in their deck. How could we possibly lose? Unless they dont draw the force of will..... then our advantage would be neutralized.
You will notice that there is one spell that can be countered and that is Choke. This is why autums veil is included in the deck. Making sure choke resolves for 4 mana is essential against blue decks. Then they can no longer play their non free counters or slippery bogles.
The sideboard is mostly in case we play against a deck that doesnt have blue. However, you will note the synnergy between boil in the sideboard and the 4 boseijou in the maindeck. This will let us destroy all islands and it will be uncounterable. The extra life we are paying will not matter because they will have no islands! Red elemental blast lets us counter standstill if they play that.
Notice there are no spells with splitsecond because those can still be countered by counterbalnce and willbender
My .50 cents on MM. Clearly playing suboptimal cards because of the existence of 1 card is terrible.
*mumbles to self* If I perhaps ran 8 sol lands, maybe a Hierarch or Birds it might be viable. lol, Thank you for posting that. It made me giggle. ^.^Quote:
Originally Posted by RexFTW
Forlorn Egoist
There will never be a card that would stop me from running a playset of StP unless they printed a strictly better StP.
Unless you get to pick two targets with one Swords, then I'd drop Swords.
-Matt
Ground out a ton of games with Rock against Merfolk with Misstep, Dredge, Bant, and NLT today. Over the past two days, I've sacrificed at least 20 hours for you guys. The results:
Favourable against NLT, for sure. I won 4/5 preboard, and 4/5 postboard games. You just have so much removal. Watch out for Mind Harness out of the board.
Bant, you do alright against. As long as they don't Natural Order, you are usually fine. Progenitus is hard to deal with, since we're usually in the one-shot range. This was tested as NO Bant with GSZ and Misstep. With the current board, however, I had no outs to resolved Progenitus.
Dredge I absolutely pounded. Having 9 pieces of hate for them (2 Teegs, 2 Deed, 3 E. Tutor, 2 Crypt, 1 Bog for 3 Vindicate, 4 Hymn, 2 Jitte,1 Confidant for boarding) was insane against them. I dropped a few preboard as were expected, but postboard I did very well.
Misstep is decent in Merfolk. Not being able Thoughtseize can be annoying. If you can, and as you should, lead with Thoughtseize if you have Top and Seize. But, take Vial if they let it through, not Misstep (hand dependent, of course). Here, the matchup wasn't terrible, but the Jittes are absolutely huge. Needle on Vial was also very good, but this is my flex slot for Tariffs/Perish against Emrakul/Progenitus. Still not your best matchup, damn you Kira. Deeds out of the board really help, but Hymns on the draw are very meh.
-----
Some patterns I noticed were as follows:
-A one-of Steppe would have helped deal lethal at one point in the game.
-Stronghold was only good in the Bant/NLT matchups, otherwise, it was far too slow.
- A one-of Hierarch/Birds or a Dryad Arbor was relevant a total of one time, most due to poor shuffling of a land clump.
-Playing 4, 4, 4 of your base threats is really good. I'd never go below that. Adding Qasali and 2 GSZ was really good, upping my threat count to 16.
-24 lands seems like flood-central, but is decent when trying to get through Wastelands. I usually slowed down, but plowed through Wastelands. 4 Basics and 8 Fetches also really helped. Even without Moxen, I'm VERY stable.
-A 1-of Savannah would have been helpful a few times, but not enough as of yet for me to add it in. It'd most likely replace a Scrubland.
-Jitte was super great. I love it to death :P
-Teeg in the board was very good, especially with GSZ, against Dredge. Qasali also helped, as I usually targeted my Top to clear out Bridges.
-Without Perish/Retribution of the Meek/Tariff, we have 0 outs to a resolved Progenitus. Couple that with multiple creatures with said Progenitus, and Edict becomes shitty. Retribution and Perish also kill our stuffs. We need something to deal with this.
-----------
My board as of now, is as follows (Maindeck contains 2 GSZ)
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Tormod's Crypt (Dredge, Knight/Goyf, Tombstalker, Combo for IGGY loop, Enchantress)
2 Engineered Plague (Tribal, Thopters)
1 Cannonist (Combo)
2 Gaddock Teeg (Combo, NO Bant, Jace, Sneak Attack, other GSZ decks, EE)
1 Bojuka Bog (Dredge, Knight deck)
2 Needle/Perish/Tariff (Needle for Jace, Vial, Thopter, Grim Lavamancer, Tezzeret. Tariff for Emrakul, Progenitus, etc.)
2 Pernicious Deed (random decks, Stax, Enchantress, Affinity)
Thoughts? I'm thinking Cannonist could be cut, but it's one of my few early pieces of Combo hate. Thoughts?
-Matt
Jitte and stronghold are like peanut butter and jelly. They go together. I run 3 perish in my side mainly for elves but also for no bant. I have no fear clearing my board against a resolved no into progen. I just use the stronghold to get whatever back.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
A other cute trick is to use the stronghold to put a dryad arbor on top, to avoid a bob ping death. I kept sacing the arbor to my knight, it was great, lol. Thought I am not 100% on running the arbor yet, I was just trying it out.
I think you can drop the canoeist and e. Tutor package. We have enough draw and library manipulation that is just more cute then anything else.
I would run a 1/1 split of crypt and relic to avoid being needled out of the game.
Are you only running 1 deed main since you have 2 in side?
About to go to my prerelease, so real quick, @Progenitus: I've been meaning to test Runed Halo with my Enlightened Tutor sideboard. Also helps against Tendrils of Agony and other random stuff.
EDIT:
And there's no reason to run two Plagues. You just need one against Elves, Goblins, and Humans.