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What do you guys think about this sb (i know your talking about led in the sb, but if i wanna run led i would just play mana dredge)
4 reverent silence
2 natures claim
2 verdant catacombs
1 forest
3 noxious revival
3 unmask
I was thinking about maybe changing the revivals to something else but they have worked out great for me so far. I really like unmask out of the board on top of chancellor of the annex. Really seems to be getting it done against belcher and reanimator.
For me, this is pretty much the way I'd build my sideboard, with the Unmasks being the flex spots.Quote:
Originally Posted by SquirtMcGirt
There are a couple if times i wished that unmask was removal, but most of the time its good enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by TraxDaMax
So I've been having a go at the fearless approach.Quote:
Originally Posted by sherko7
I'm not having much fun with Faithless Looting. Having a LED in the starting 7 is a pretty low chance.:rolleyes:
LED already has probe/wraith that do well with it, that don't need LED to be a good card. Looting feels a bit win-more.
Are you finding the same so far in testing?
What about Mishra's Bauble or Urza's Bauble as accelerators?
I don't remember them being fantastic or anything, but I'm gonna try em out again, see if your ASAP approach makes them any better.
Not better than Looting combined with LED, but the baubles give us acceleration regardless of LED.
The biggest drawback I can see so far, is that playing these means you may not be sac'ing them until turn2 to setup turn 3, should you have no acceleration in your starting 7.
Of course, with a hand like Wraith, Probe, LED and Bauble... oh man!
Not much testing on my part, been pretty busy. :( But really though, instead of Baubles I'd still prefer Looting. You really don't need to have to be able to cast Looting before using LED. G2 I'd just play it and just pass the turn even without draw spells in hand. Of course, you could always mull. Basically the LED gives you an opportunity to discard your hand even on the play, and start dredging the next turn, regardless of whether or not you can cast Looting with it. :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
Wouldnt running led undermine the whole point of the deck? I mean as far as giving your opponent as little chance of interacting with you as possible? I mean i understand your just trying to go balls out as quick as possible but the way i see it, your probably gonna win game 1, but games two and three are where you have to worry (unless your playing that gay ass rest in peace deck with helm) wouldnt bringing in led and spells hurt you? And even worse, what if you lose g2? Now they are ready for you g3. Wouldnt it just be better to go with your plan and worry about their hate? I understand trying to innovate and be more creative with the deck but i dont know if thats worth it if your going to undermine the while point of the deck in the first place, which is non interactivity with your opponent. I could be wrong though, keep testing. I just feel like if i wanna play led and spells i might as well run land and play led dredge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SquirtMcGirt
All good points, but isn't it fun doing it anyway? :laugh:
I'm digging the interaction between Probe, Wraith & LED.
I've been trying a few different lists.
The biggest issue I find with LED (or any list with lots of accleration) and no Dryad Arbor, is that getting to 3 creatures isn't that easy, especialy if you have exile-type removal to contend with. Arbor was quite helpful there...
I've had fun goldfishing with;
4 of the CORE 4 dredgers (4 of all except 3 of SS), 4 Icky & 4 Shad's.
4 Probe, 4 LED, 4 BfBelow, 4 Therapy and 4 Dr's.
3 Balustrade Spy, 1-2 Flayer, 1 Worldspine Wurm/Blightsteel Colossus.
So why Spy?
Since Rthomas suggested this little dude, I've been goldfishing a bit trying to get a list going to have some fun with. A combo approach sucks, cos you have no plan B, but in the manaless build, you have a few different ways to kill.
If DR gets this guy into the field, you have a high chance of winning. If you don't manage to win on that turn, Worldspine Wurm (or Blightsteel Colossus etc.) will give ou another turn, in which Flayer together with a mass army of Ichorids and Shadows will burn out your opponent. If that doesn't happen, just swarm attack them for the win.
Spy doesn't care if you have less than 7 life, like Mr. Grisel either.
So far in goldfishing I've managed to combo off a Spy on turn 1 a few times, turn2 quite a few times.
YES, a turn 1 win with manaless! Is it reliable - Hell NO!
Is it playable? Dunno.. but I've been having some fun with it. :wink: I might just take this sucker to the next night out for a laugh.
That sounds cool man! But...magic for fun? Who does that? Lmfao jk jk. See i really like probe in the deck but the only thing id be willing to cut would be chancellor of the mother fucking annex...and that card is balls out awesome against everything. And not having dryad arbor would suck. That card wins games for real. I love just plopping that little fucker down like dread return? Lol
Some notes to share based on what slave- and I have tried:
We're making some progress but I think we're on the wrong track regarding what works well in the deck. Specifically, regarding a "combo" with Spy versus Dryad Arbor and Griselbrand, we should ask:
- What configuration of cards gets us to three creatures the best?
- What can we do with one configuration that we can't do with another?
- How do those configurations help or hurt us over a three-game match?
The deck doesn't have a great deal of trouble getting to three creatures by the third turn unless it doesn't give any dredgers (which is a wash for all strategies), no matter what the configuration. The deck still executes its beatdown strategy well enough to win games on its own. But clearly the Griselbrand (and Spy) strategy are powerful enough to win it all, and they fill a somewhat similar role.
While some say Spy leaves you vulnerable to Surgical Extraction/Extirpate, I think that's a red herring. What situations is your opponent holding Extraction for your Dread Return where you're not already filling your graveyard with other stuff, or where you don't have Cabal Therapy for it? Wouldn't your opponent have used it already on whatever dredger or Bridge from Below that you dropped first? It seems like a stretch, but it's worth a think. At the very least, if you're scared of such a thing, you might just side out the Spies and a Dread Return for a relevant matchup card from your sidepile.
So perhaps the difference isn't so much in what Griselbrand and Spy do on their own, but the configurations they allow to run around them. With Griselbrand you'll likely have Dryad Arbor and something else, perhaps Contagion and Sickening Shoal. With Spy you're probably a bit more open and you can try Probe, Annex Chancellor, Forge Chancellor, or something else (Unmask comes to mind). Then you go into your sidepile strategy, and while the standard bearer of this deck has obviously found great success with Reverent Silence, Nature's Claim and Forest, it isn't my personal preference. I feel like I foul up the deck up by siding in a marquee of cards, when I can devote the sidepile to other weak spots, like combos or Reanimator or Show and Tell. You could put things like Colossus, Faerie Macabre, or Contagion, or whatever in your board and you'd be in good standing. Again, personal preference.
I look at the Spy version of the deck as a Spy strategy in a Dredge deck. That is, instead of playing Lotus Petal and Summoner's Pact and running blind against discard and blue spells, you slow down and employ the Dredge beatdown strategy as well. It's in the same vein but a comparable sort of variation, where you don't worry about blue cards when you beatdown and combo through the finish against other stuff.
@slave-: A turn one win is terrific, but ultimately unnecessary in this format. With Street Wraith and Probe in the deck, the turn two kill is not out of the question and turn three while disrupting is nearly the "standard" here with all the dredging we'll do. If you're really anxious about getting to three guys, you might try Forge Chancellor for Annex Chancellor or Probe to fight off removal, but I haven't felt it's necessary where I play. Finally, I wouldn't play the deck without 16 dredgers; there are enough situations that come up where I have 0 or 1 dredgers, and the deck just poops out when it doesn't dredge the draw step.
Yeah, who woulda thought eh, SquirtMcGurt? :tongue:
I love Dryad Arbor too, I love the way it can't be countered etc., been singin it's praises for a while too.
I'd like to try and see how far we might be able to push the Fearless approach, and maybe Spy could be part of that too?
If we doctor up Spy, having a single turn more to smash them with Ichorids, Shadows, remaining Narc's and shitload of zombies, should hopefully be enough, even if they do extract Flayer or Troll (which is likely)Quote:
Originally Posted by RThomas-
BTW, I've been preferring Worldspine Wurm in testing. Having it in hand is great agianst SnT.
If Show+Smell shows up an Emrakul, and if we then end up getting everything annihilated, we can DoctoR up our next turn. Ha!
Most of the Spy decks out there have been combo-based, totally open to blue counter. Meh.Quote:
Originally Posted by RThomas-
Ichorid says, "Win fast blueboy b4 I eat your face!".:cool:
Anything less than 15 to 16 dredgers is a deal breaker for me, as is dropping the numbers of Ichorids or Shadows. Dropping any of them would mean our beatdown win-con is at risk.Quote:
Originally Posted by RThomas-
If the Manaless Dredge-Spy deck is gonna be a thing, it has to be as consistent as regular-manaless normally is, and Arbor is part of that, as is the high (black) creature count for Ichy & Shadsy.
Because we're not running Arbor, fearless and fast seems to only way to go, and Unmask sounds a good option here too (side) to deal with Side-options like Rip, Graf etc.
Whilst I'm not aimin for a turn 1 win with this deck, I would like to try and make the deck less likely to auto-scoop as much as I can.
Whilst I don't disagree with the Spy-bashing going on in the large part, I wanna see how far we can push this version of the deck, seeing how traditional hate like Leyline of the Void doesn't seem to be super-popular anymore.
Have you guys tried running a gristlebrand spy split?
No I haven't, how about you RT?Quote:
Originally Posted by SquirtMcGirt
If I was gonna run Grisel, I'd want Dryad arbor in there too. Just opens up the possibilty of combatting hate.
Spy warps the deck into more of a go-stupid b4 hate shuts you down type proposition, which has actually been a lot of fun testing so far.
...kinda reminds of a fragile Storm deck approach like PactSI, which goes big quick, or dies trying.
Well i was just thinking if you ran like 3 of each or something like that it would give you an option to win either way. Just a thought. Trying to help u guys out. What is the list your actually running currently? I sgould be playing with my friends here shortly I'll play it and give you guys notes and such.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
Quote:
No I haven't, how about you RT?
If I was gonna run Grisel, I'd want Dryad arbor in there too. Just opens up the possibilty of combatting hate.
Spy warps the deck into more of a go-stupid b4 hate shuts you down type proposition, which has actually been a lot of fun testing so far.
...kinda reminds of a fragile Storm deck approach like PactSI, which goes big quick, or dies trying.
I have not included both at the same time. They both seem to have the same role, but perhaps Griselbrand is stronger if you're expecting to play against Show and Tell. On the other hand, if you expect to play against Show and Tell, you might put a Colossus or Wurm in the maindeck and drop Spy to win the next turn, if that parlay works out for you. This seems to be a likeable option if you're playing against something like Show and Tell/Sneak Attack, or perhaps Twelveposts, which this deck seems very bad against... but then again, it doesn't really help if they drop Primeval Titan either. So I suppose that approach doesn't get us very far.Quote:
Originally Posted by SquirtMcGirt
I think that you really don't need an abundance of Dread Return targets; aside from whatever combo creature you include, you also have Flayer of the Hatebound or a big Grave-Troll. So I pick one or the other.
Here's what I'm screwing around with:
16 dredges
4 Ichorid
4 NShadow
4 Phantasmag
4 SWraith
4 Therapy
4 DReturn
4 Narco
4 Probe
4 Bridge
4 Annex Chancellor
3 Spies
1 Flayer
I try some combination of sidepile cards that includes Unmask, Mindbreak Trap, Faerie Macabre, Colossus, Contagion/Shoal, Leylines... you get the idea.
I suppose an interesting answer to some troubling decks like Tin Fins, Twelvepost, Lands, Enchantress, Show and Tell/Griselbrand to some extent, if we're thinking outside the box, might be Leyline of Punishment. It gets after Glacial Chasm, Griselbrand, Solitary Confinement, and some other cards. Of course, it doesn't really have anything to do with your strategy, so you might want to look another direction. But some of those are bad matchups for us and they're being played more and more, so it's worth a look.
Appreciate it. :wink: More help the better!Quote:
Originally Posted by SquirtMcGirt
I'm testing two versions right now.
One the same as RTs' list except swap the C-Annex for LED's. I like it so far as LED gives it the option to go stupid on turn 1, and allows a mulligan.
I also have Worldspine Wurm in the side for when decks give me a reason to need another turn post DR, or I'm gonna expect SnT.
The other one, is one I'm testing - still not sure about yet.
Basically the same list but has Chancellor of the Forge in there, currently trying it by dropping 2 Shadow & 2 Shells.
I'm testing using different cards to cut, still working on it, so don't judge me or anything!
I'm still not sure I like it, as Forges' little goblin is gonna be open to removal, however, it is defence against Lackey etc.
If any of you find good results with a certain config please post your thoughts.:smile:
I tested with Baubles, and whilst the accleration is good, the deck is just so tight as it is.....
No we don't - you're right. But we do need an answer to one of these "You can combo, but you can't win" perm's, that Flayer isn't up to burning out.Quote:
Originally Posted by RThomas-
I'm gonna try fit in a single Angel of Despair in the side for this exact problem.
Lastly, with Spy we can't run Arbor - but we can run Elvish Spirit Guide potentially.
I don't think this is an option. I mean, even if we have 8 Claim/Rev's in the board, the chances of getting ESS & one of those in our 7? :eyebrow:
A single Forge Chancellor helps you win through Leyline of Sanctity. Dread Return it after you flip your deck with Spy and you should have enough tokens to crash; if not, Therapy it back to graveyard and do it again. I'm not sure what else lets you combo but not win.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
Tried this deck tonight at a small tournament (25-28) and came out 3-1, four rounds of swiss but no elimination rounds.
I used the list above, my sideboard:
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Unmask
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of Punishment
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Terastodon
Round 1: Jund (Doug). Game 1 I had Annex Chancellor to start, but no dredges on first turn. He had turn 2 and 3 Thoughtseize and played a Dark Confidant, but nothing other than that. I Therapied away something before I put Spy into play on the fifth or so turn.
Game 2 there was Annex Chancellor again to start, but he lead with land Tormod's Crypt. I discarded a Thug to dredge slowly, and he blew Crypt after two turns right after Surgical Extraction on Bridge from Below. Since my hand was full I discarded Grave-Troll immediately and started to dredge again. When I he was around 6-8 life he played Engineered Plague on Illusions, for Narcomoeba, but I had two Nether Shadows and two Ichorids come into the graveyard and I beat to zero life the next turn.
Round 2: UWr control (TheInfamousBearAssassin). Game 1 I had Nether Shadows and Ichorids coming into play each turn, but the Ichorids were hit with Swords. I dredged a lot to try and find three creatures through which I could reanimate something, but Swords and Snapcaster Mage kept me at bay. I went too deep into the deck and punted away the game.
Game 2 I was hit with Surgical Extraction four times because of Snap Mage. Bridge from Below, Grave-Troll, Ichorid, and I gave up when Nether Shadow was hit. Jack was on top of the game hitting creatures with Swords in my upkeep instead of allowing me to use them main phase.
Round 3: BW Stoneforge and tricks (Konstantin). Game 1 I reanimated Spy on turn 2 with Therapy protection and also had Annex Chancellor to slow him down.
Game 2 I cycled three Street Wraith on his second endstep and he scooped with five creatures on my board.
Round 4: Merfolks (Chris). Game 1 was reanimate Spy on the second turn again with Probe clearing the way. Game 2 I punted: there were two Lord of Atlantis and Cursecatcher on his side and Narcomoeba, two Ichorid, two zombies on my side. I played Dread Return at six or so life for no good reason and he Forced it. I still had Narcomoeba and a zombie untapped, and he attacked into them. Next turn I brought back a Shadow and two Ichorids, attacked, and reanimated an Annex Chancellor with two untapped zombies. He didn't draw Relic of Progenitus at all and gave up the next turn.
Some things I noticed:
-My opponents except for Jack weren't very familiar with how the deck functions, even outside of Spy tricks. You need to remove my guys before main phase rolls around. Also, opponents kept putting me on the draw. Knock that off.
-It seems like people Extracted the wrong things. Bridge from Below was the first to go in the Jund game I won, but it didn't matter much because there are still twelve free creatures in the deck. I felt like Extracting the dredgers would have set me back much more. Take advantage of people not knowing what to do against this deck; everyone I played against said they hadn't ever seriously tested against Ichorid.
-Make sure you know what you're doing; there's a lot to juggle between triggers in phases, combat math, planning ahead for future opponent draws, playing Therapy properly, other things. Don't punt like I did and give your opponent a free pass when they don't realize what's going on.
-I didn't use Leyline or Terastodon at all so I don't know how they're doing. Unmask was a good card for me, I wanted it boarded in in every matchup. I really appreciated Annex Chancellor, I enjoyed it every time it showed up and it didn't mess with me when it didn't.
That's all, will play again Sunday.
Well done! So despite some hate you still didn't cop a Leyline of the Void of a Rest in Peace type lock? Encouraging.:smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by RThomas-
A Snap-Swords combo? That sucks, but oh well, not much you can do about that besides extraction.
On that, since we are playing with Spy - Therapy/Unmask combined with Surgical Extraction could help us lock-out graveyhate.
....seems a waste of sideboard space. Wha'chu reckon?
RE: Extracting the wrong things, I get that too. The smart ones extract Troll, Therapy and Dr., but extraction doesn't really destroy us consistently anyway.
I see what you're saying about Forge. But I'm not liking it.
Stuff like Glacial Chasm are the things we need to answer, as no matter how much we attack or burn it won't matter.
I know it's not common, but I play it in a few of my combo decks to buy time against dumb aggro.
My version packing 4 Forge has been problematic. I don't think it's possible to fit enough accleration etc.
I gave it about 3 hours of testing, trying different cards out for the forge. Not very good no matter what I did.
Making millions of tokens wth Forge - is it needed? With Last-Ditch Effort? Ha ha, only joking...the flavour text makes my point I think!:laugh:
Seriously though, after Spy, we should have a load of creatures and zombies ready to attack next turn anyway provided we have a 1-more-turn card in the deck. The reason I'm trying out LED is to try get Spy into play earlier.
Post combo, I would assume most of the time a single Angel would be enough to kill whatever obstruction they have, and resume FLayer/beatdown kill. And of course being black is good.
I think, I still want Blightsteel Colossus here. If they S&T Emrakul, and we have Blightsteel, we force them to block, otherwise they die. A 4/4 Annihilator 6 shouldn't be that problematic for Manaless. =PQuote:
Originally Posted by slave
It really isn't. Like Progenitus, Emrakul still gives us an extra turn to return our Nether Shadows and Ichorids, so we still have some play against Show and Tell. And of course if they block the Blightsteel, we've got an excellent clock to give Manaless a run, like you pointed out. I just didn't have it for that tournament I played in.Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth
Clearly, we're just grasping at straws when we're considering sidepile cards. The point of the build (which apparently we've co-opted the thread with) is to reanimate Spy and make it go. I'm sure we could side in to Show and Tell killers by putting in three or four Angel of Despairs or something like that. But if we're launching into an unknown meta, that seems silly.
I'm looking at the deck as a Spy deck that has a Dredge beatdown alternate win. But the beatdown win is good enough to make up for the difference that the All Spells deck has in speed. We're playing this build for Annex Chancellor to get an extra turn and for Probe/Therapy, another draw and disrupt effect. Obviously we lose to Void Leyline and Rest in Peace, but really we should beat all of the other decks before we run into stuff that has these cards, perhaps in elimination rounds.
Good stuff, keep it coming.
Sower of Temptation seems cute to.Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth
Aside from this, as i am not to familiar with this deck, what's the strategy for removing Leyline of the Void when dropped in turn 0? Edit: specificly with the balustrade spy version.