As I said, I'll have to do some more testing, as Nivmagus tried to dodge my hand today.
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As I said, I'll have to do some more testing, as Nivmagus tried to dodge my hand today.
I find with the NivMagus he is best in a super-aggro list, as you are essentially giving yourself card disadvantage for the benefit of a few +2/+2 tokens, so you would need to win with speed like the Modern NivMagus deck, where he is brutal. In this legacy build it seems like you just hope to use him to eat some dead cards in the hand, or pay some life for quick tokens off of a Probe or Gut Shot or get lucky with a well-timed Flusterstorm while he is out. In this case without as many Phyrexian spells or one-turn combo-like kills, you may hope to give him two such tokens or so a game which would put him at 5/6 pretty quick, which isn't bad for Goyf battling and certainly a higher ceiling than Guide. Is it enough to build a deck around him over the standard Guide/Snapcaster version? I guess you'll have to resolve some NivMagus in your list and let us know. He does have some advantages over the easily chumpable and cardgiving Guide which are worth exploring.Quote:
Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn
There is no Nivmagus deck in Modern. At least not a decent one. I know GerryT has been tinkering around some time ago, but the deck just isn't good.
Anyway, Nivmagus isn't a super aggressive substitute for Goblin Guide, it's UR's Goyf, which profits from dead & countered cards. "Timing" Flusterstorm, Daze, Probe etc to grow the elementals isn't exactly rocket science.
hi, am I trying this list but am I undecided on some points
_ the counterboard is ok?
_ pyro or goblin or nivemagus?
thanks guys!
// Deck: UR Delver (60)
// Lands
2 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountain
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer
// Instants
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
3 Fire // Ice (Fire)
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
3 Spell Pierce
// Sorceries
3 Chain Lightning
3 Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
I have my own version of this deck. See mox diamonds for T1 young pyro or double delver/guide :wink: Not yet sure if this is good.
UR Young Pyro:
Creatures: 13
4x Delver
3x Guide
2x Grim
4x Young
Spells: 28
4x Brainstorm
4x Chain Lightning
3x Daze
3x FOW
3x Gitaxian probe
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Ponder
2x Price of Progress
1x Thunderous Wrath
Lands: 19
2x Arid Mesa
2x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Mountain
2x Mox Diamond
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Volcanic Island
Hey,
First time posting on the Source, and I would like to share this build.
So far, I have been testing this build on Cockatrice, focusing on Nivmagus(aka Sparkle Jackson) and Young Pyromancer(aka young peezy)
Seriously, all these guys need custom rapper art.
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Nivmagus Elemental
4 Young Pyromancer
Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Chain Lightning
2 Daze
4 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Ponder
3 Price of Progress
Enchantments
2 Clout of the Dominus
Lands
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
Sideboard (15 cards)
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Dismember
2 Sudden shock
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Umezawa's Jitte
61 cards mb, and it works mostly fine, thank you.
Matchups I have noted:
Maverick: 50/50
Omnitell:55/60
Storm 60/65
Canadian:55
Jund:40/60
UWR delver: 30/70
dnt:50/50
The gameplan, as it usually plays out, is to gauge an opponent's capabilities and lower his hand size(very important) with pressure plays like DJ delver and Mr. grim. By building up a sparkle jackson with clout or spamming spells with Young peezy, I close out with shorud and superior numbers.
Mishra's factory is the real oddball choice here, and I have them out of preference as well as utility. Not only are they invaluable blockers, they give me outs against Jace and increases the beater count to 19, something I have found in testing to be favorable to the 14-15 beaters in traditional builds. I tend to find Goblin guide to be more help to my opponent than to my clock, which is why I have excluded it in testing.
If I have to talk about the issues with this deck, the foremost problem seems to be speed. Granted, this list was built with inevitability in mind, but most of the time, rather than winning quickly I end up playing 30 minute rounds trying to grind out the other deck. Suprisingly, I have not had many problems with dtbs like Omnitell, storm or Canadian Threshold. However, what really gets me is any deck that plays a MILLION pieces of removal. Jund proved tough when I can't draw into POP, as did WUR delver. In particular, Geist of Saint Traft seems like an automatic beating against this deck, and so far, I have not had any real answers to a omglotsofremoval+geist.
I would love to hear any feedback on this build, and certainly any advice concerning getting rid of Geist.
Happy back to school.
been brewing with young pyromancer...saw this list on another forum and wanted more thoughts on the following list
Creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer
Lands (18)
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Spells (29)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Price of Progress
2 Smash to Smithereens
If you want to discuss things, you shouldn't slam in some lists you've seen. ;)
In my opinion alot of these lists are in the middle of nowhere ie. not quite aggro enough or not quite midrange enough. There was a theoretical list on SCG that runs 4 Stifle, 4 Snapcaster instead of extra burn and Goblin Guide. This obviously loses Goblin Guides explosiveness and reach + removal for blockers in exchange for more midrange power and ability to screw manabases.
My honest opinion is that the Tap out version is better because I hate stifle in a deck without spell pierce and or spell snare. If you have stifle in hand and keep mana open, they might not play a fetch which kills you on tempo. You can't wait around for them to play a fetch, this deck needs to be aggressive. I prefer running 4 Guides and More burn to be max aggressive.
Hey as you know, I only play bUrg. I wanted to abuse Young Pyromancer there, but it was not the right shell. I experimented with the following list, that is a hybrid of RUG and UR Delver. As I will not test the deck anymore I wanted to share the list with you. Perhaps someone can make a good use of the list. It should be really good in the current meta game - not as strong as Canadian or bUrg but perhaps better than the stock UR list.
Deck: Sasans RUG Burn.dec
Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard
Creatures:12
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Young Pyromancer
Spells:30
4 Brainstorm
4 Chain Lightning
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
2 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
Lands:18
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:15
1 Taiga
3 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Submerge
It is basically a far more aggressive version of Canadian. As I want to play a shroud creature, nimble mongoose is there, one of the weaknesses of UR Delver is the vulnerability of their creatures. Mongoose improves many matchups.
The list is pretty weak to be honest and your assessment is off the mark.
That's pretty much RUG -Goyf +Pyromancer. Spare us the "but it has 2-3 more burnspells than most RUG lists!". Pyromancer is not more aggressive than Tarmogoyf and there is no point posting that list in here, since it features green. To add insult to injury you also play Goyf in the sideboard. Why not just play RUG? Your list doesn't provide the advantage of having a much more resilient manabase, much more aggressive playstyle and much more reach (Price of Progress!).
Having access to Mongoose doesn't justify the splash and losing the previously mentioned advantages. Delver, Guide and co don't have Shroud? Well, that's why you have a shitload of burn and counters.
Have you tried posting this in the Canadian-Thread?
That list looks a little ummm, loosey goosey...Quote:
Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn
I've had a few people message me about Young Pyromancer. Its obviously powerful (I've been having a ton of fun with it in Modern UR/Grixis) but it definitely doesn't just slot in like a lot of these lists are trying. It makes the most sense in a wasteland/stifle shell I guess. But then why are you playing all that burn if your game plan is to make them stumble? Goblin guide is way better then YP when you want to play the burn game. Other lists are cutting Snapcaster for YP while keeping all of the burn, which is super wrong. Don't get me wrong I love brewing, but I think a lot of these lists are worse versions of UR. I am a pretty big fan of Levin's grixis list though.
What about the Todd Anderson build with the Pyromancers and Probes? I didnt have the SCG Premiummembership to watch it run.
Hi,
So I'm a long time lurker and I came here to post my most recent form of U/R Delver. I have two other legacy decks which I really enjoy playing; Miracles and Rug Delver. My meta consists of ANT, D&T, Merfolk, Deathblade, U/B Tezz, the recent Big red deck and some others. My Miracles and Rug Delver decks work great and really rack me up some fine wins but U/R delver on the other hand has allways been a bit iffy. I feel that it lacks consistency, overall power and speed, and at times I just look at my awkward hand and want to put it on fire. A while ago I decided to completely take apart the deck and just start from scratch. Now I want to share with you my mindset during the creation of what has become a U/R deck that has started winning me a lot of games and what does exactly what I believe a U/R deck should do.
Evaluating current U/R delver
I felt there was a need to reeavaluate what this deck tries to do, what the gameplan is and in essence how it wants to win. As it is, the deck is just not good enough. The amount of times I've beaten or burned down my opponent to 6 life or even lower and still lose the game is just too damn high(pardon my french!) Now let me say that I don't consider myself a good magic player. For my Miracles deck I watch Joe Losset play a lot at twitchtv, and with a lot I mean allmost every day and I still don't understand a lot of his decisions(which are useually right), but I do know the difference between losing due to possible errors on my end or just losing because my deck isn't good enough. Now to start off with here's a list I ran for a long time and I consider a bit standard for U/R delver:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress
3 Spell Pierce
3 Chain Lightning
3 Ponder
3 Arid mesa
3 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
Now if I would have posted this list under normal circumstances you would start to look at it and question why I would run 3 Dazes and/or 3 Spell Pierces, which is the normal way all of us usually judge decklists. But I don't want you to do that. I want you to question the deck the way I did when I started reevaluating U/R delver. I want you to ask yourself the most basic of basic-questions one can ask himself in magic: Why combine this color with that color? In this case red with blue. Well in U/R delver that isn't that difficult. In essence we primarily use red to damage our opponent and we primarily use blue to defend ourselves from our opponent. It's a very simple but effective strategy just as Wizards has intended the colors to be. But looking at the deck above.. Is this the best list we can rack up which follows this strategy? Or could it be done more effective?
We use red to do damage to our opponent. The 'best' red spell in legacy in my opninion is Lightning bolt; one mana instantly doing 3 damage to a creature or player. I like it and I want to use it. Are there any other spells which do that? Well yes! Chain lightning also does 3 damage but it isn't at instant speed which is a shame. But again for one mana we do 3 damage! If we could have a deck where every red mana we tap does 3 damage to our opponent, that could potentially be really good! I mean seriously if we hit our land drops and continually do 3 damage to our opponent with all our mana he would have been dealt 18 damage at the end of turn 3. If he fetched twice, he's dead. I know exactly what you're thinking. Yeah Burn does that.. and it's just not that good. No you're absolutely right, it isn't. But let's be honest the 'red' in U/R delver does in essence try and do the same thing as all the red spells in Burn. So why should we not look at Burn to see how it damages it's opponents, take it's most effective spells and leave the rest? A possible turn 3 kill still sounds good to me. The problem with Burn is that it can't defend itself, but we can because we also run blue!
So what spells should we need te run to defend ourselves as effective as possible? Well we need protection from a turn 0 kill. So we need Force of Will. Force of will also forces us to play around 16 blue spells at the minimum.. Well that's fine since we also want a couple Spell Pierces against combo. We also established that we want to keep hitting our opponent with 3 damage so we don't want the game to take very long. Daze is a good card in games that will not take long so we should add some of those aswell. Now we all know blue also has the best card in Legacy; Brainstorm. It fixes your hand by getting rid of junk and we want to be fast so we can't afford to have a junkie hand. We're not at 16 blue cards yet so we might aswell add 4 of those. Then there's ponder. We want to also make sure what we topdeck the next couple turns is good enough or when we should use a fetch. So let's add some Ponders aswell.
So you've come this far through this text and there's nothing new right? Still the same cards as the original U/R delver? Well it get's interesting from now on.
From here I will tell you what we're going to do different. Up untill this point we established two things; We want to effectively damage our opponent by doing 3 damage per red mana source tapped and we want effective counters for a short fast game.
So what cards should not be played?
Creatures.
Grim; We tap one red mana to get a 1/1 red creature which for every red mana we tap we do 2 damage. A good card but if my opponent plows him I lost a card didn't do my 3 damage and even if he lands I still have to tap a red source for two damage instead of my so desired 3. But he sticks and is a continual source of damage?! True, but for how long will he stick? Why would I prefer having him over a simple 3 damage spell.. It takes me 3 mana to make him do 4 damage over 3 turns.. Not efficient enough!
Snappie ; 2/1 creature that allows the recycling of cards. But seriously 3 mana for a 2/1 and a possible bolt.. Sure with flash but I want to continually damage my opponent and not use my burn to have to clear the bord for the 2/1 creature to actually connect. Too high of a chance that by the time I can put this guy into play there will be a creature to block him.. Again, not efficient enough.
GGuide;Then there's Goblin guide.. To be honest, I'm not sure about this guy.
If you can drop him turn one the chance of him connecting multiple times is pretty high. So for one mana you can get a lot more damage out of him then just 3.
The problem is the possibility of him fixing your opponent with landdrops and pulling him late game. Fixing our opponent with mana makes the midgame a bit more difficult. We want our dazes and pierces to remain effective as long as possible. And again we don't want to use burn to clear the board for a creature. Him being a 2/2 most likely is going to get him killed.. Not consistend enough.
Delver;No I'm kidding! I do want you to run this guy.
Seriously you don't tap a red for him but this guy is a consistent damage dealer. He's the only creature I will advise you to run. And trust me just running him is fantastic. I've had games where I didn't pull him and my opponent thought I ran a creatureless deck. Taking out his plows post board. You should have seen the look on his face when I landed 2 in the first few turns game two. My friends know I only run him and for them it's awkward as well. Do you take out spot removal? If not how many will you run? What's worse an unanswered Delver or dead cards in your hand and deck?
So basically it's pretty easy. Cut the dead creature cards that clog your hand and swap them for burn damage! No more opening hands with Grim Lavamancers and Snapcaster mages. Start with consistently doing your opponent damage turn one and enjoy it.
What other burn spells should you run?
Well we look at Burn decks and we take the ones that do 3 damage. Doesn't matter if the cards are at sorcery speed. Let them use their counters if they feel they need to. As long as you can keep some mana open to counter cards that wreck you, you should be quite good. I advocate running 4 Lava Spikes and 3 Rift Bolts. Sure slow cards but they will do 3 damage for one mana that's all you need.
There are only two cards I advise you to run that potentially do not follow my own 1 mana 3 damage rule;
Price of Progress
Thunderous Wrath
Price of Progress; In this meta is very, very good. All these Delver and DRS decks in the current meta make this card extremely worth it. Sure it may not allways hit for 6 or more but it's just to good to not play. Secondly it's an instant which means you can use it in end steps which is nice since it's a 2 mana card.
Thunderous Wrath; Well then there's this card. You either hate it or love it.. I love it. Sure not that great having it in your opening hand or it getting stifled but we do run brainstorm. This card in this deck simply asks your opponent; do you have a counter? I used to run 3 and have reccently upped my count to 4. It is just that great.
Well that's it I discussed allmost everything so here's my decklist
Decklist U/R Burn
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
3 Spell Pierce
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Ponder
4 Thunderous Wrath
3 Rift Bolt
3 Mountain
2 Island
2 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Volcanic Island
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
There are some things to keep in mind when playing this deck. For instance what do you counter? Well I usually don't care what my opponent plays unless it wrecks my game like Chalice on 1, Trinisphere, a Thalia or of course comboing off. During most of my games however my counters are there to push my burn through. Especially Thunderous Wrath and Price of Progress can really be worth defending with countermagic. Sometimes you'll find that your hand is a bit clogged with blue spells.. It happens just stick with the game plan. It is especially in these cases that I find Thunderous Wrath to be very effective. A one mana 5 damage spell puts you back on track in no time.
There are still some things I go back and forth on. I don't know what the best numbers are when it comes to countermagic; do I need 4 Forces? Should I add an additional daze by cutting a ponder? How many pierces is correct? What I do know is I really hate Force of Will in this deck in fact I hate it so much I'm thinking of cutting it and putting Flusterstorms in.
And then there's the mana base.. Even with 17 lands I feel I get flooded quite often and I don't really know what I should do about that. By cutting snappie you really don't need more than 3 lands in play. But I'm a bit anxious about going any lower than 17, don't want to get wastelanded out of the game. On the other hand Rug delver has 18 lands of which 4 are wastelands and I've never tried going lower than 17.
So tell me what you guys think, any advice is welcome!
Qtc I've been on the thunderous wrath plan for some time now and I can tell you portent is a stricktly better replacement for ponder I can't count the number of times I've won during my opponents upkeep. Keep in mind you can also target your opponent. I'm also revamping my approach to u/r as I'd like to find a way to make standstill work as the deck needs a way to accrue some CA. Especially when Pop is a dead card.
It's pretty much the same as the Wasteland/Stifle-lists that have been posted here on the last two pages.Quote:
Originally Posted by beez
@qtc
You forgot one thing though: Creatures provide a constant damage source that can hit multiple times.
There's no reason (budget is no reason when you suggest a list) to run Steam Vents over Volcanic Island and three Mountains are too much, as you want to be able to cast every spell with one or two lands in play.
Yes you are correct. Creatures are a continual source of damage... If they can connect. That was one of the main reasons for me to take them out actually. The creatures we run are at best 2/2's (Delver not included). If my opponent has blockers the best I will do is trade with him. Which is not good enough for me. It's what I said about Goblin Guide it's a very fast 2/2 than can connect multiple times but if i pull him lategame and there's a blocker I would much rather have a 3 damage burn spell. This is even more the case with Snapcaster. He's going to cost me 3 mana for at best a flashbacked bolt. My opponent can simply choose to let him resolve if he has a Goyf in play, totally worth it for him. If your creatures are not connecting you have a problem, and you have to choose to either spend burn damage to resolve this problem or you let your creatures die or do nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn
Besides, if I have an opening hand with double snapcaster or double Grim lavamancer or a combination of both I am not happy camper because it's going to take me a while to get the damage going. A hand with Rift bolts and Lava spikes on the other hand is fine by me. Taking out these slow creature cards really fixes the opening hands I used to want to set on fire..
I don't know what the Steam Vents are doing there.. Took me a while to write the post though so I've must've gotten tired. I fixed it in the original, thanks!
Like I said, the manabase is still a bit iffy.. But the reason I run three mountains and only two duals is because of Wasteland and Stifle. You don't want to lose lands if you're allready tight on them. Mixing an average number of basics in with fetches kind of solves that problem. It also gives you the opportunity to go full basics which is also pretty nice. This is only a two color deck so it's much more forgiving.
@uncletiggy
I like the idea of Portent, but I don't think it does what I would want it to do. The idea that if you choose to shuffle with Portent you don't run the risk of pulling a Wrath which you can't Miracle since you drew the card on your upkeep is correct. But after that draw from Portent I will also have another draw for my turn, the chance of that being a Wrath is theoretically the same.. ergo Portent didn't do anything but delay me a card in my hand. With ponder it's different if I see a Wrath I simple asses whether it's worth drawing another of the 3 cards first and put Wrath on top, if the other 2 are just too bad and I need to shuffle. It's basically the same but Ponder does what Portent tries to do a turn faster.
Huh oh wow.. I read it wrong! I thought portent said draw a card at the begininning of your next turn. But you are correct it draws me a card at the beginning of my opponents turn. That's actually pretty good. It doesn't let you chain Portents though like you could with ponder, but I think I can live with that. I will definitely try it out! Seeing as how you've allready tested this card, does it give you a problem with keeping mana open for control? I mean it could force you to tap out..Quote:
Originally Posted by Qtc
Not running a decent amount of creatures produces more awkward hands and you tend to run out of gas more easily. You don't have to spend more resources after casting a creature and you can hit them multiple times. If they trade or have a removal, they at least wasted resources on it.
Running a really burn heavy UR shell just lacks a clock for most matchups, especially combo. You are not a fast enough burn deck to race them, despite (or due to) playing counters, which is why it's essential to get a clock on the table and have resources available to fight the combo.
We've all tinkered with Wrath and it can be game-ending, but also cripples hands significantly.
Here's the list :Quote:
Originally Posted by beez
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Dismember
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Ponder
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
2 Gut Shot
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction