[Deck] Dredge

I would keep a hand that looked like this in a heartbeat:

LED
LED
Street Wraith
Faithless Looting
Golgari Grave-Troll
Golgari Thug
Careful Study

No question. That's an incredibly powerful turn one play that can open the door to some seriously broken shit, especially if you're on the play. It's a far more attractive hand than replacing the Street Wraith with Breakthrough in that scenario.

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Breakthrough is def. the worst spell for G2 and will usually be cut to a certain extend for g2 in a lot of matchups, however there are also a good amount of matchups where you'll need it ( DDft, ANT, TES, Maverick ( considering that we don't sideboard against them and just try to outrace Ooze / KotR / GSZ), etc.).

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Street Wraith can be used for free at any time. That means if your turn one play is Careful Study, draw a Street Wraith and discard some dredgers, you're getting more action for free immediately - and will be able to feed a potentially dredged Ichorid in the event one is binned off the 'Wraith activation-into-dredge. I'm simply saying that the issue with Ichorid is generally in the slower games being far more relevant when you need to have black creatures other than your dredgers to recur them into play.

I am not totally cutting Breakthrough. I still run two in there.

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And using Breakthrough as a turn 1 discardoutlet isn't the worst thing you can do ( if you mulligan into oblivion).

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Assuming you absolutely find yourself mulling into oblivion, casting Breakthrough is fine. I even defeated A.J. Sacher under the exact same set of circumstances at the Open in D.C. earlier this year, where I mulled low and just went all-in on a Breakthrough. It paid off, but the fact is under most circumstances you're wanting a draw spell or discard outlet instead of Breakthrough - which should get boarded out in the appropriate match-ups.

I am not running the Quadlazer list, for reference. I think you have that confused with the traditional LED Dredge that I opt to run. The lists are comparable in a general sense but quantity is what the Quadlazer list is highly predicated on, maxing out on four-of's all across the board.

I'll be playing this list tomorrow at the local. Updates then.

Haters gonna hate.

Breakthrough is the worst draw spell we have. With eight study effects you don't need to max out on it.

Breakthrough is much worst in multiples than any other card we want to hardcast.

I would personally run 3 as that number has been working for me, but the street wraith split seems worth a try.

Here is the biggest advantage of Street Wraith: He is better in games 2 & 3 than breakthrough. Why is that a big deal? Games 2 & 3 are the ones we tend to lose or perhaps it is just me. So improving the maindeck for games 2 & 3 without sacrificing too much explosive power the needs on game 1's seems like a very solid deckbuilding technique.

Everything Hollywood said about Breakthrough is correct as well.

+1 on the Breakthrough and Street Wraith discussion. Recurring Ichorid has definitely been an issue for me as well, and the fact that Wraith is basically an uncounterable dredge spell helps with 2 serious issues. (Being food and being an out to countermagic)

Breakthrough is generally the first to cut when we board, which should say something all by itself. Sure it can do ridiculously broken shit on t1, but the entire deck itself feels pretty broken enough. So why not take the most conditional spell we have and replace it with something hyper efficient?

I for one will definitely be testing this out tomorrow as well. Great tech.

The only thing I cut for the two Street Wraith was a Breakthrough and FKZ, to improve consistency a tad. There are so many directions the deck can go but to be honest I just got sick and tired of opening hands with Breakthrough and really nothing else and shipping it away. Strategically speaking, SW is better in most circumstances and still offers so much more. It's kind of like a carpenter in the sense that it is able to work around and strengthen the fabric of the deck in a multitude of ways.

I just really think (as I had previously stated) that being able to chain Ichorids is something overlooked and taken for granted. We have been plowing draw spells and all sorts of other cards up the deck's ass but have neglected to take into consideration that one of the primary functions of the entire archetype is to recur Ichorids successively and avoid as much interaction as possible. SW fills that role quite well.

Breakthrough, while still potent, is more conditional and requires a setup to be ultimately effective. With all this said, however, I would still never go below two. That card should always stay in this archetype for the raw power it provides no matter how many you opt to run.

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Originally Posted by joemauer

So improving the maindeck for games 2 & 3 without sacrificing too much explosive power the needs on game 1's seems like a very solid deckbuilding technique.

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Yeah, improving maindeck for games 2 & 3 seems fine when you DON'T HAVE A SIDEBOARD. Improving maindeck is mainly to fight G1. If you have trouble G2 & 3, just sideboard for it.

I'm not advocating against Street Wraith, I just think it's sideboard material at best.

The discussion Breakthrough x Street Wraith leads us to that old story about raw power x consistency. I mean, this has always been a dichotomy (LED x LEDless, Quadlazer x Combo-esque builds, or simply Targets main x no targets/ no DR). The Wraith tech seems cute in some corner cases, and also improves consistency, but can we afford losing raw power in G1's?
Sometimes isn't just better to go all-in in the first game, and then work on resiliency and move out the focus from speed in G2/G3's? I don't know about you guys, but I think is a bit risky taking the chance of losing game 1... isn't that one of the main reasons to play LED after all? I don't see any problem with siding out Breakthrough every single game, as I don't see any problem siding in lands too, for example... and this doesn't make me want to play 15 lands MD and 0 Breakthrough.

People are really underrating Breakthrough. I've said that a hundred times, yet I know that people would cut it first from the deck.

It is way more broken than LED in this deck. Seriously. It makes no sense to run LEDs (which are boarded out very often as well), but then cut BTs because you want to have it easier when sideboarding.

A list with 4 LED but zero BT is significantly slower than a list with zero LED, but 4 BT (go ahead and test it if you don't believe it). Breakthrough's potential speed bump is stronger than LED's. Today's metagame is incredibly fast and I would not want to miss out in a single BT in it.

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Breakthrough is more of a liability in opening hands without an enabler. It usually always gets shipped. Street Wraith, however, fulfills multiple roles and still allows me to dredge at Instant speed. I love that

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Sorry but this logic is flawed. You argument that BT is bad without an enabler. But SW is good then? What do you want to do, turn 1 Street Wraith to draw a card? SW is just as useless as an enabler. In fact, BT is even pretty insane by itself against decks without countermagic. Just X=1 it on turn two and crush people on turn three. I'll keep something like 2 Lands, C.Coliseum, Breakthrough all day long if I know they can't counter anything and that hand is typically pretty busted. What does 2 Lands, CC and SW do for you? BT is not a liability for me, I'm always happy to have it in my opening hand.

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Originally Posted by Izor

People are really underrating Breakthrough. I've said that a hundred times, yet I know that people would cut it first from the deck.

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People cut it first from their decks against the appropriate match-ups because they don't want to straight-up lose to decks potentially running Leyline of the Void or Grafdigger's Cage. Sideboarded cards are specifically brought in to fight hate. What good is using anti-hate when you have no hand to use it from? Not so good.

Going all-in with Breakthrough is treacherous at best in game two against a well-prepared, intelligent opponent who has a well-prepared sideboard. Breakthrough forces you to go all-in in almost all circumstances, which is not good when you consider you're just begging for a blowout.

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It is way more broken than LED in this deck. Seriously. It makes no sense to run LEDs (which are boarded out very often as well), but then cut BTs because you want to have it easier when sideboarding.

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No, it really isn't. LED is the card that enables Breakthrough and the other draw spells to actually be good in the deck. It also acts a discard outlet and turns on your draw spells into the nuts. Breakthrough can't do that on its own unless a series of circumstances allow it to actually occur.

LED is just straight-up better for being multilateral and enabling circumstances doubly in your favor, which is far better than a conditional draw spell that requires setup - especially in game two. And I don't know who you're generalizing as people that board out LED "very often as well," because from where I sit that card never leaves my deck under any circumstances what so ever. The sole case might be against a deck like Pox where they have the ability to run a metric fuck-ton of hate, but that's the least of my worries.

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A list with 4 LED but zero BT is significantly slower than a list with zero LED, but 4 BT (go ahead and test it if you don't believe it). Breakthrough's potential speed bump is stronger than LED's. Today's metagame is incredibly fast and I would not want to miss out in a single BT in it.

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I have tested it on numerous occasions, but where your logic is flawed is that you're comparing apples to oranges and two completely different versions of Dredge, so that point is moot.

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Sorry but this logic is flawed. You argument that BT is bad without an enabler. But SW is good then? What do you want to do, turn 1 Street Wraith to draw a card? SW is just as useless as an enabler. In fact, BT is even pretty insane by itself against decks without countermagic. Just X=1 it on turn two and crush people on turn three. I'll keep something like 2 Lands, C.Coliseum, Breakthrough all day long if I know they can't counter anything and that hand is typically pretty busted. What does 2 Lands, CC and SW do for you? BT is not a liability for me, I'm always happy to have it in my opening hand.

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That logic is not flawed, believe me when I tell you. Street Wraith acts in a completely separate manner than Breakthrough, so again - stop comparing the two on a basic, fundamental level. Street Wraith is purposefully included to smooth out situations where you want to dredge immediately without access to lands and allows you to get Ichorid into play in most circumstances a turn faster.

I have already explained why I feel the card is useful, and to be honest I don't feel like doing it again. If you think for one second I purposefully included Street Wraith to cantrip, you're sadly mistaken.

You're pointing out circumstances where Breakthrough would be better than Street Wraith. What you fail to realize is that I do run Breakthrough still in my deck in addition to shoring up some awful opening hands with Street Wraith and giving me the ability to transcend a variety of circumstances - like bringing Ichorids back into play turn two without LED or Imp or dredging as soon as you dump a dredger off Imp or a draw spell turn one - into some really powerful starts.

At their core, they are two completely separate cards used for two completely separate reasons. I choose to run Street Wraith because it smooths out areas in the deck that are inherently flawed - much like my "logic."

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I would keep a hand that looked like this in a heartbeat:

LED
LED
Street Wraith
Faithless Looting
Golgari Grave-Troll
Golgari Thug
Careful Study

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Everyone would keep such a hand and if Street Wraith would be a Breakthrough in this instance there would be room to argue whether or not to mulligan this hand.
But as I said earlyer: You are running 13 lands and 2 Street Wraiths: Chances are that your oppening hand contains a land and not a Wraith.

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[...] but the fact is under most circumstances you're wanting a draw spell or discard outlet instead of Breakthrough - which should get boarded out in the appropriate match-ups.

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Considering your old list: Wouldn't it make more sense to cut the FKZ for the 4th PImp ( being a discard outlet + fuel for Ichorid).
And most likely you also want those spells ( either draw spell or dsicard outled) in any Street Wraith scenario where you don't go for the DDD route.

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I am not running the Quadlazer list, for reference.

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C'mon you posted the list on the same page, how could I have missed that?

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I'll be playing this list tomorrow at the local. Updates then.

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Good luck, lets cast the discussion to the side until you get actual tournament results.

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Originally Posted by Izor

A list with 4 LED but zero BT is significantly slower than a list with zero LED, but 4 BT (go ahead and test it if you don't believe it).

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This. Last time I won against LED Dredge with my non-LED build was because I had post-board Breakthrough while he didn't.

I haven't tried Street Wraith in about 5 years, so I don't really know what good it might do. I will say that I won't play less than 3 Breakthrough, and am actively trying to find room for the fourth. For two reasons.

First, Combo. Specifically Storm Combo, but also Reanimator. Both have little to no hate, with maybe a pair of Extractions, and both are faster than Dredge. Reanimator is definitely unfavorable, and Storm goes from slightly unfavorable,(TES) to even, depending on which build. There is no single card that gives the speed that Breakthrough does. And none of these decks have the hate or countermagic to punish you for using it.

The second is Maverick. I think most agree by now that the plan for post-SB games is to "not" board against them. With Maverick now running Knight for Bog, Thalia, Ooze, Plow, Crop Rotation for Bog/Karakas, and sometimes ETutor for hate, or a couple of Crypts or Extractions, trying to SB effectively would be futile. They have no stack disruption, and are far slower, so the plan is to go over the top before they can get their hate online. The chance of them opening their one Crypt is not worth playing around. Again, nothing does this better than Breakthrough. Especially if they have Thalia, and you lose your opportunity to chain multiple draw spells. Dredging three times total on turn two is often not enough against Maverick, especially on the draw. Just like against Combo, I want to have the most chances to hit as hard as I can, as early as I can.

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Originally Posted by Digital Devil

This. Last time I won against LED Dredge with my non-LED build was because I had post-board Breakthrough while he didn't.

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I am not sure what LED list you were running against that did not have Breakthrough, but that is a mistake predicated on deck-building anyhow. I run Breakthrough in my list, and I'm sure the person who you were playing against could have potentially had a seriously more broken turn one than you with land, LED, Breakthrough, dredger.

I would like to say again that I am not against cutting Breakthrough from the list, but I feel that four - at least - is a bit much game two when you need to be prepared in certain match-ups for blowout scenarios not in your favor. My list hasn't changed - I am experimenting with new ideas that challenge and push the limits of what is widely considered the accepted "norm" for this archetype so that new configurations can emerge.

I think that Street Wraith has really marginal utilities GAME 1. Dredging in your opponent's turn to find some Narcomoeba for blocking, or maybe some Ichorid.

Fuel for Ichorid isn't really a concern if you're playing three copies main deck. Don't forget you can pitch the beloved Griselbrand for it too.

In games 2 and 3, Street Wraith can protect your dredgers from Surgical Extraction. But in games 2 and 3 you might have better answers in your sideboard, as well. I would personally play it in the place of Purify the Grave/Coffin Purge (if anyone still runs that).

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

People cut it first from their decks against the appropriate match-ups because they don't want to straight-up lose to decks potentially running Leyline of the Void or Grafdigger's Cage. Sideboarded cards are specifically brought in to fight hate. What good is using anti-hate when you have no hand to use it from? Not so good.

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Why are you siding out BT against Leyline/cage decks? That's a mistake. You board them out against artifact-based hate, which is exactly when you should board LEDs out as well. LED and BT have EXACTLY the same drawback that make people board them out against that type of hate. Only that LED fulfills a double role while BT just makes you twice as fast, which is why I'll agree that BT is often boarded out before LED. Then again, I never board all BT out against Leyline and stuff, why would I? Your best chance of winning those matchups is if you can hypercombo-finish them after destroying the Leyline.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

Going all-in with Breakthrough is treacherous at best in game two against a well-prepared, intelligent opponent who has a well-prepared sideboard. Breakthrough forces you to go all-in in almost all circumstances, which is not good when you consider you're just begging for a blowout.

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Replace Breakthrough with LED in your statement and it's just as true. Same argument as above.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

No, it really isn't. LED is the card that enables Breakthrough and the other draw spells to actually be good in the deck. It also acts a discard outlet and turns on your draw spells into the nuts. Breakthrough can't do that on its own unless a series of circumstances allow it to actually occur.

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I fully agree with the first part, I'd never argue against that. Let me just mention that our whole deck is built to make that series of circumstances work (and LED is an integral part of it), so I don't think why you talk about that as if playing BT to its strength could happen only 1 game out of 10 and only if your opponent screws up.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

LED is just straight-up better for being multilateral and enabling circumstances doubly in your favor, which is far better than a conditional draw spell that requires setup - especially in game two. And I don't know who you're generalizing as people that board out LED "very often as well," because from where I sit that card never leaves my deck under any circumstances what so ever. The sole case might be against a deck like Pox where they have the ability to run a metric fuck-ton of hate, but that's the least of my worries.

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Although I strongly oppose to the word 'strictly' here (You have two lands, a Dredger and X where X can be LED or BT; What's better?), Iagree that LED fulfills that double-role in the deck. I am the first to say that double roles are what makes the cards in this deck so good. BT also fulfils a double role. It is absolutely insane in one of those functios, and only an emergency solution in the other function. Still very very good.

And sorry, but keeping in 4 LED against RUG Delver with 4 Crypts is just plain wrong.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

I have tested it on numerous occasions, but where your logic is flawed is that you're comparing apples to oranges and two completely different versions of Dredge, so that point is moot.

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It is not moot. have you ever said something like: Dredge is faster than Lands.dec? If you did, you violated your Apple-Orange rule yourself. We're plaing this game with a million of decks viale. And no matter how different decks are, Speed is a variable on the basis of which we can compare any deck in the game. I don't know why two Dredge lists (where only like 6 cards are different) can't be compared to each other. Dredge IS faster than Lands.dec and although the speed difference is not as huge, LEDless BT Dredge is faster than LED BTless, juding from average win turns.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

That logic is not flawed, believe me when I tell you. Street Wraith acts in a completely separate manner than Breakthrough, so again - stop comparing the two on a basic, fundamental level. Street Wraith is purposefully included to smooth out situations where you want to dredge immediately without access to lands and allows you to get Ichorid into play in most circumstances a turn faster.

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I fully agree that Breakthrough and SW don't fulfil the very same role in the deck and that it's hard to compare them. I just prefer a spell that outright wins me the game if it resolves over an uncounterable way to get an ichorid into play one turn earlier.

The reason I said your argument was flawed is that you put forward that BT is useless without an enabler. And that argument didn't make any sense there because SW needs the exact same amount of setup. With the only difference that BT can actually do the setup itself in some situations, while SW can't.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

I have already explained why I feel the card is useful, and to be honest I don't feel like doing it again. If you think for one second I purposefully included Street Wraith to cantrip, you're sadly mistaken.

You're pointing out circumstances where Breakthrough would be better than Street Wraith. What you fail to realize is that I do run Breakthrough still in my deck in addition to shoring up some awful opening hands with Street Wraith and giving me the ability to transcend a variety of circumstances - like bringing Ichorids back into play turn two without LED or Imp or dredging as soon as you dump a dredger off Imp or a draw spell turn one - into some really powerful starts.

At their core, they are two completely separate cards used for two completely separate reasons. I choose to run Street Wraith because it smooths out areas in the deck that are inherently flawed - much like my "logic."

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Okay. We'll just have to respectfully disagree with each other, which is no problem in my eyes. Different people different choices, I just wanted to explain some of my words from above.

And I'll still watch out for your testing results with SW, I'm always willing to be proven wrong.

I didn't have a chance to play the experimental list yesterday. However, I am attending a very large tournament this weekend in Maryland. I'd be interested in seeing what sort of Quadlazer lists people have been running to success.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

I didn't have a chance to play the experimental list yesterday. However, I am attending a very large tournament this weekend in Maryland. I'd be interested in seeing what sort of Quadlazer lists people have been running to success.

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Dig up k1w1's posts. He seems to be doing well with the quadlazer.

Ive been following this thread and taking the variations to my playtesting group for about a month. I think Hollywood has really pointed out the strongest version of the deck. Street wraith has taken my game one wins to a significantly higher percentage. From coinflip to about 65% from exactly 100 games tested. Not enough for real statistics but a strong indicator it's a welcome change. I was about to shelve Dredge for the scg legacy open in Seattle because sneak/show and Reanimator felt like a coin flip game one. Playing dredge imo is about taking G1 and fighting through hate with tight play games 2 and 3. Street wraith adds a time walk (immediate dredge) instead of casting pimp or draw effect and passing. I lead with LED (if I have) and draw a counter, either fow or spell pierce if they are on the play, then can go in with pimp/wraith or draw effect into wraith. I don't play Griselbrand main because of handing reanimator g1 wins via reanimate etc. I Just wanted to say thanks to everyone's insight and if someone follows the thread and takes everyone's opinion seriously the deck just begins to reveal itself in another light. I'm playing a close to quadlazer maindeck and DR target sideboard. The thing I love about street wraith is the degenerate T1's it promotes. If it's not in your opening grip it's also so much nicer to flip into the yard. It's always doing it's job. I've gone up to four ichorids as reanimating multiples has been a lot easier as well. I will most likely end up cutting a putrid imp or the fourth ichorid for my 12th Dredger. It feels like a different deck with just a few changes. I love this deck. Thanks again everyone.

Land
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered paradise

Dredge
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 stinkweed imp
3 Golgari thug (testing, could be 4th thug -1 ichorid)

Draw
2 street wraith
2 Breakthrough
4 careful study
4 faithless looting

Discard:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Putrid Imp

Business:
4 Ichorid (as stated above could be -1 for 12th Dredge)
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
4 Narcomoeba

SB: I'm still not sure if I need FKZ/Griselolnotbanned as it's powerful but I feel usually unnecessary.
3 Natures Claim
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Memory's Journey
2 Ashen Ghoul
1 Dread Return
1 Angel of Despair
1 Blazing Archon
1 Elesh Norn, Chancellor of the annex
1 Flayer of the hatebound
1 Tarnished Citadel

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

I didn't have a chance to play the experimental list yesterday. However, I am attending a very large tournament this weekend in Maryland. I'd be interested in seeing what sort of Quadlazer lists people have been running to success.

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Kiwi and Brot have postet some tournament results. Both with the Quadlaserlist from the startingpost + Ashen Ghoul Board.

I can also remember Brot posting a Top 8 from a pretty large tournament with the board from the startingpost, which was suceeded by the Ashen Ghoul Board to fight surgical more efficiently.

TLDR: Maindeck is still the same. Board shiftet to:
- 4 LotV
- 4 Claims
- 3 Ghouls
- 2 Citadels
- 1 Paradise
- 1 Grudge

ps: Some squeeze two more lands into the Maindeck, but I have no idea how they are doing tournamentwise.

Greetings Mindlash

Just play the quadlaser + Ashen Ghoul board and win this tourney.
I'm also at a GPT again tomorrow and i will play the list again.
I will show you my results.

K1w1

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Originally Posted by Mindlash

Kiwi and Brot have postet some tournament results. Both with the Quadlaserlist from the startingpost + Ashen Ghoul Board.

I can also remember Brot posting a Top 8 from a pretty large tournament with the board from the startingpost, which was suceeded by the Ashen Ghoul Board to fight surgical more efficiently.

TLDR: Maindeck is still the same. Board shiftet to:
- 4 LotV
- 4 Claims
- 3 Ghouls
- 2 Citadels
- 1 Paradise
- 1 Grudge

ps: Some squeeze two more lands into the Maindeck, but I have no idea how they are doing tournamentwise.

Greetings Mindlash

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I Top4ed a GPT, too with the same list. Adding lands weakens the list imo.