100% yes. Good point. Been running the BEB since its alpha and has a nice signature (im a signature guy) - but yes, I would change that :)Quote:
Originally Posted by qomori
Thank you.
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100% yes. Good point. Been running the BEB since its alpha and has a nice signature (im a signature guy) - but yes, I would change that :)Quote:
Originally Posted by qomori
Thank you.
When do you guys think the correct time to cast flusterstorm is against storm? How do you feel about splitting with a mindbreak trap? I think of mindbreak trap because it allows for me to cast glistener elf and have an answer to storm
I placed 3rd at Eternal Extraganza this weekend with Infect, having never played a legacy event, and not testing as much as I should have prior to the event. I was basically carried by running good and the overall raw power of the deck. I learned a ton about the format this weekend (mostly, that I still know very little about the format), but I drew a conclusion as to what I felt made Infect feel so strong:
People don't play enough removal in legacy to combat this deck.
I ended up losing to Grixis Delver in the semis in part because I kept a greedy hand (partially due to inexperience), and he played well. I know this is considered a bad match-up, but I was 3-0 vs it in swiss, and typically didn't feel like games were close unless they had bolt and therapy.
Just wanted to pop in and saw hi - I started lurking 2 weeks ago when I made plans to attend EE, and wanted to say thank you for the discussion. It was nice to have a repository that I could read that showed theory articles and an evolution of card choices (specifically the sideboard).. I hope to be more active as I continue to learn the format and match-ups.
Care to post your list?Quote:
Originally Posted by meat
4 trop
8 fetches
4 inkmoth
1 pendelhaven
1 wasteland
1 forest
4 noble
4 glistener
4 blighted agent
3 git probe
4 brainstorm
1 ponder
2 spell pierce
1 crop rotation
2 berserk
3 vines of vastwood
1 sylvan library
4 daze
4 invigorate
3 force of will
1 become immense
sb
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
1 grafdiggers cage
1 surigcal
1 corrupter
1 k grip
1 seal of primodrium
1 force of will
1 blue blast
2 flusterstorm
2 submerge
1 meekstone
1 dismember
I put MBT in the board when I loan infect out if I am using the flusterstorms in my delver build. MBT is ok but the application is pretty narrow. Flusterstorm is actually much better against most of the field as you can use it to prevent opposing removal, and if you are going for the combo kill and they force your berserk or swords in response the chances of them being able to answer all 4 copies of flusterstorm should seal you the victory.Quote:
Originally Posted by kellysandall
Hey meat, congrats on your 3rd place finish at EE. Very impressive for a first time legacy tournament, I hope you stick around and continue to put up results with Infect.
As a rule of thumb, I'd say use soft permission on the ritual or initial discard spell, and save your Force of Will/Flusterstorm for Tutors. Flusterstorm is almost always going to be a one mana instant that disrupts the spell chain. Even in the cases where they can afford to pay for Flusterstorm, they generally don't have enough mana to continue combo-ing off. Of course, every game is different. Sometimes you might do something crazy like Force of Will a Duress in order to get them to immediately play into a second Force of Will you have. As always, just play as many games as you can to get a feel for which spells are most important.Quote:
Originally Posted by kellysandall
Mindbreak Trap does not have a place in any base blue deck. It's very situational and incredibly easy to play around. Most storm sequences will start with either a discard spell or a ritual into a discard spell, and both of these will not only discard the Mindbreak Trap but also give your opponent full information on what else they have to play around. If you go back a page or so in this thread, there's a small discussion on the best way to board against storm, and one of those ways is to board out most of your Noble Hierarchs, as they're one drops that don't often help you set up quick kills. If you find yourself between Glistener Elf and one mana counterspell against storm again, I'd generally lean towards the Elf on the play and leaving mana open for Pierce/Fluster on the draw. This is assuming ANT, if you're playing against TES you always leave the mana up as they typically combo off much quicker (Turn 2-3 for ANT, turn 1-2 for TES).
So I took my list from the last page to the LGS with 27 man and went 5-1 (top 4 all had 15 points) so that was nice.
I wanted to test
- 2 bimmense
- 2 croprot
- 2 blossoming defense
as well as going back to the main savannah/3 top and 2 STPs in the board (no RIPS)
The meta was quite different than what it usually is: 6 miracle decks (yes!) and 2-3 eldrazi.
Here is a short recap with the most memorable moments that i remember:
Miracles 2-1
Game one i beat him until he entreats for 1 angel. I have glister, inkmoth and pendelhaven for gas, and invigorate and vines and cant really get through his blocker or his hand. CB shuts me out.
The first game goes long and we have 27 minutes left. The second game takes 23 minutes where I win. I had elf in play and vines. He had EE on 1. I keep attacking with it and he takes the damage for som reason. He then plays EE on 0 to kill my inkmoth (oh wait...) I attack him with it and let him explode for 0, taking out his own EE on 1 too.. lol. He dies to Inkmoth.
4 minutes left, I have a hand with 2 blighted and a lot of pump. I dont need more time and he has no removal for the second blighted
Eldrazi 1-2
Game 1 he mulligans to 5 and keeps a risky hand. He goes urborg+simian spirit guide and chalice on 1 turn 1.. fuck.. I can do almost nothing, and dazes a turn 2 mimic. The turn after he goes jitte which resolves. I go blighted agent. He passed with almost no lands. EOT he warping wails, not killing my agent, but making a token for his jitte. Eventually Jitte is at 8 counters and i have a hand full of 1mana spells. lol
G2 he seems reluctant to keep his hand, but does. I have land noble i think, He goes turn 1 eye of ugin + 2 mimics. my turn i croprot for wasteland and cuts him off mana. proceed to attack with elf+pendel haven and he has to use mimics for blockers. inkmoth also helps here. I only have inkmoth, 2 nobles, and i get to hard cast daze on a his TKS, and the turn after daze a endbringer. Damn those felt good.
G3 we both think long and keep. He has chalice again...... Im super locked but thought i could manage it with enough lands and draws to find one of my answers for it. I never did...
Eldrazi taxes 2-0
I probe and see an effing chalice, thalia, mox, waste, ancient tomb, priest and something else. He lands the chalice. Luckily my hand is nothing but 0, 2 and three mana spells. I get to cheat in 1-2 nobles and a berserk on his TKS that took my invigorate, taking 8 and going to 10. Eventually he has a TKS and thalia and 3 poison i think. I have glistener elf, and attack with dual invi + berserk. He can block for 5, but takes 15 still.
Game two he has nothing turn 1 and i have the nuts with turn 1 kill. his turn 2 he lands a Displacer and passes. I attack through it enough poison and trample.
Grixis 2-1
Game 1 i lose to DRS, a angler and pyromancer+friends.
G2 he bolts wronly on my noble and i beat him down eventually.
G3 he has 2 delvers that doesnt flip, i went turn 1 needle on wasteland. He has 2! wasteland in hand and flips two more to the delvers. Lol :D haha. I swords a delver, he forces and the turn after the way is clear for pump and kill
Sneak and show 2-1
I have no fun stuff and die to emrakul through omni through Show and tell.
G2 I beat him quickly. dont remember much.
G3 is tight. he cantrips for help, i keep attacking with exalted agent. He is at 4 psn, and I attack and invigorate with counter backup, but as i expected he had a wipe away for the agent. oh well. Take 0, replay agent. That gets a sudden shock next turn, and i play my second agent. At this point he is still cantripping and after dazing an intuition I have a grip of 2 pierce, 2 force, which feels good.
Miracles 2-0
Game 1 I go land go, not playing noble, but holding pierce up. It gets his top. I play 2 inkmoths on the following turns and brainstorms into 2 more.... lol. Keep hitting and he tries to kill them all but fails.
G2 Ihave turn 1 needle for top and 2 agents, 2 invi and berserk. Turn 3 I test the waters with my brainstorm into his balance, which reveals a blind mentor.... come on... no turn 3 kill.
I try next turn, a second mentor counters the first invigorate and he gets another turn.
The turn after he has island, mountain, tundra - all untapped, and a lot of cards. He has wear/tear and BS in GY. I draw surgical, and given that had a potential kill, I decide to use surgical for its probe effect to see if the way was clear. I target brainstorm (if he had any in his hand, he could find good stuff. If he had a second wear/tear I had a blossoming defense ready and it would cost him 2/3 of his mana). He snapcasters in response and flashbacks brainstorm. Surgical fizzles. But now he is tapped out and I went for it and he cannot answer. Turns out his hand was dual flusterstorm, pyroblast and 2 swords from the brainstorm. If i had targeted anything else but the BS he would have let it go, and had 2 blue open for double fluster. Pwew.
Conclusion:
So a second place on tie breakers and some prizes. Very nice.
I didnt get to use bimmense much, but i saw more croprots which felt good. Blossoming again had me a kill where a vines wouldnt. Swords was alright and savannah not an issue.
I need to mull more aggressively to stop chalices, but im having some hard times boarding out against the eldrazi. Taking some 1CMC spells seem right, but force is either good or a dead card (cavern)
Food for thought.
That's what im trying too, to improve my matchup vs Eldrazi, Here's my boarding plan:Quote:
Originally Posted by Neffy
+2 vcorrupters
+2 krosan grips
+1 seal primordium
+2 stps
+2 needles
-2 dazes
-1 flusterstorm
-2 glisteners
-1 probe/ponder
-1 crop rotation
-1 vines
-1 befense
With 4fows main, 5 anti-artifacts... we have better chances vs cotv1 lock.
corrupters will replace glisteners... and the 2nd Bimmense assures we dont lose our punching power even when they lock our berserks.
I still included in 4 1cc spells. Needles for jittes, stps can help too... again better chances games 2 and 3 getting out of the cotv lock. Needles and STPs will still provide us something here.
I like the idea behind the second VC. And Ive been very fond of the one in my board , but are 2 perhaps too narrow? They come in against DT, taxes, shardless (strix), other decks with SFM? Is that a broad enough field to be running 2? It might be. It seems nice to board out semi-dead glistener elves, and the 2/2 body of VC combined with noble is not bad either, tho we dont get to use pendelhaven. It also dodges eldrazi's warping wail and end bringer, as well as survives on an invigorate when dismembered.Quote:
Originally Posted by poxy14
I think it was just only a month ago when I shifted to 2 VCs. Upon seeing more players playing with chalices, spheres, equipments. Before, Miracles' been the deck that presents a very good challenge to me, (Grixis and RUG is a bit tough, But TEMPO decks in my area dropped in numbers. Again, coz theyre hated by chalices) especially when piloted by a good player, and even that I dont board in my 1'of VC. With the meta shifting to colorless spells. I wanna load up on hate. I feel every deck outside chalices and spheres are still a positive matchup for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neffy
What do people think about the white splash for a huge wide open meta like eternal weekend? I think red delver decks are pretty likely to be out in force so absolute law could be good. If Lands is going to be a thing it's going to be here so RiP is likely to be good. I also like the white splash for death and taxes so that could be good.
Is seal of primordium, viridian corrupter, natures claim and k-grip too much side hate? Ive noticed people straying from seal. I know that theres guarenteed eldrazi, stoneblade in my meta for the 2 viridian corrupter argument
@tiberius42: Ive experienced playing both variants (UG & Bant) and after switching to the Bant version, I never looked back. It's just 1 dual land difference, but the W splash stretches further than the straightup UG. Here's my comparisons:
1. STP vs Submerge (Submerge is very conditional, STP has app vs DnT, Eldrazis, Burn (lifegain too), Reanimators...)
2. RIP vs Varies (tormod's, graf, relics, surgicals) I carry 1 RIP, alongside a graf, surgical... It's a house vs DRS/GRIM/GOYF/ANGLERS... All other options are helpful vs GYdecks, but RIP presents a different angle of assistance.
3. ABSOLUTE LAW vs Chill (Our creatures can now block YP tokens, swiftspears, and laughs at Grimlavaman) They both provide great help, But Absolute Law fits our decks perfectly since our main wincon is via an infected creature. Protect our creatures and we have better chances.
@kellysandall: vs the matchups you mentioned... too much might be the best way. Other decks are already a positive matchup for us, but I feel we struggle more a bit from permanent control pieces (chalices, jittes, counterbalances, spheres) rather than spot removals in bolts, decay etc. I never used NClaim as it's useless vs chalices, cbalances... I tried naturalize too but SEAL PRIMORDIUM is just too good. Though it can pump goyf (goyf.decs shldnt be a problem for us), a resolved SEAL dodges taxes, destroys counterbalances and offer delays if someone wants to ruin us with their artifacts. Once it's on the board, they need something to destroy it first or land an artifact bluff just to get rid of it. It's just so good in this deck. (I have lots in my SB as artifact/equipment hate: 2needles/2kgrips/1sealprimordium/2vcorrupters.)
They can play all their chalices and jittes all day games 2 and 3. They'll have a hard time locking me.
Again these are problematic pieces (jitte, cbalances, spheres, cotvs, opposing needles to lock inkys, strix, bloodmoon), that's why I overloaded on hate.
I've been playing 3 pieces of dedicated hate for a long time, usually 2 Kgrip with Seal (I may start trying Corrupter in that slot for larger tourneys, but there's at least one Show&Tell and one Enchantress player at my local, which is why I favor Seal). Then either 2 needles (anticipating lands/loam) or 1 needle, 1 null rod (anticipating storm or miracles) for extra outs to jitte.Quote:
Originally Posted by kellysandall
I'll second poxy re:Nature's Claim. Hate that can't reliably kill Chalice or Counterbalance doesn't seem worth it.
What do you think about meek stone or e bridge?Quote:
Originally Posted by poxy14
If you don't run a second wasteland, it is a good card to consider. Cutting off mana can be more effective than stopping individual threats. Bridge is not bad. In the early game, propaganda might be better, as 2 mana per creature is a big hindrance ( eye of ugin and eldrazi temple don't really provide big mana for this effect). I have been running a maze of ith in the side against big dudes and jitte; with urborg in play, it even taps for mana! If you are worried enough to have a dedicated slot, ceremonious rejection is a one mana counter to their entire deck. I have been seeing some meekstones, but am hesitant to try it; you have to absorb the damage from the first attack, and on the draw it can be locked out with chalice. It does buy some time for a very low cost though.Quote:
Originally Posted by shocked439
When choosing my sideboards, I always insert in pieces that have versatility, and can be of help vs other archetypes.Quote:
Originally Posted by shocked439
Meekstone is good vs eldrazi, but you still have to endure their initial punch. Not much of a help vs YP's, Dnts, tokens, elves.
Ensnaring Bridge is awesome vs SUPER BIGGIES, but I havent seen much emrakuls and friends lately in my meta.
I was suppose to try out PROPAGANDA too, unfortunately I dont have any and decided to insert in the 3rd STP.
I like Witchking's suggestion too for a maze, and knowingly our opponents will bring in needles for our inkys games 2-3... presenting a maze in play, will have them guess whether where they will use their needles.
If you want to wreck ELDRAZI, go for Hall of Gemstones : )
Ceremonious Rejection... uhm I think you need lots of em, to draw them consistently and EARLY. and we dont have much space. Id rather put in something that destroys problematic artifacts rather than countering them.
The Eldrazi matchup just needs a careful studying of what's to keep and what's a mull. Pretty much we just need a blighted here or inkmoth. Just like I treat an ELVES matchup.. but elves cant lock us, theyre just pure aggression. Eldrazi is way different...locking us and via fast clock. That's why im bringing in back the 2nd Bimmense for more non-1cc punching power. VC's will take care of these lock pieces, FOW will deal with TKS.. That's how im gonna do it.
Hey Poxy,Quote:
Originally Posted by poxy14
do you like Swords against D&T? I played against Maverick and D&T today and Swords felt very subpar. Once they get a Mom online they just clunk up your hand. And then there's Sanctum Prelate, which makes matters even worse. Ultimately, I don't think D&T has any single super annoying creature that warrants the inclusion of removal (Thalia is mildly annoying, but eh). I'd rather keep some Forces to counter the odd Stoneforge, removal spell, or Vial. Against Maverick I would have preferred Submerge because of Prelate (dude is nuts if he sticks). But the deck is kind of fringe anyway.
Personally, I don't really feel Swords against Burn either. Again, I don't think they have anything too attention demanding in the creature department - except Lavamancer (not really worth it against Eidolon, though). I'd rather have a Blue Blast or a Skite here. And swording your own pumped guy seems like a super-fringe tactic where you'll essentially 3-for-1 yourself. There's quite some burn in my meta and in my experience its a pretty good matchup. I usually just load up on permission and kill them faster :P
Also, what do you cut against Eldrazi? Here I'll definitely want the Swords. But also the anti-chalice suite and my counter magic. So I guess cutting all the Glistener Elves is not so outlandish? I seriously can't remember a single game where Glistener wasn't abyssmal in the matchup (except if you have "the nuts (tm)", of course).
Quote:
Originally Posted by batter-call-skull
I have lots of permissions maindecked, so vs DnT I will cut 2 pierces/1 fluster/2dazes/no. of fows for removals/artifact hate. A resolve vial will negate FOWs effectivity. STP can tempo them too upon equipping. I havent seen prelate yet even when some of my friends are running DNTs. Versus Maverick, KoTR shouldnt land. It just wrecks us by fetching wastelands, mazes... so I kinda love stp here. SUBMERGE is amazing here, but then again i want cards that can battle numerous archetypes. Versus non forest decks, SUBMERGE is no use.
For the Eldrazi match, I cut dazes, 2 glisteners, some number of 1cc pumps, I reduce cantrips too but brainstorm is still a 4... They just have so many creatures bigger than our glistener, replacing them with 2 VC's improves the our crit quality.
On point on the burn matchup, I agree with you that swording our crit is showing desperation... atleast we still have an option to stay in the game : ). I just hate seeing turn 1 grim, turn 2 eidolon... It's like having 10 life points too to start with vs them. I load up on FLUSTERSTORMS (i have 1 main, 2 sb) instead of BEB/Hydro... again, flusters can be vs any other deck outside red. Im a fan too of ABSOLUTE LAW here.