[Deck] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by FFreak

Yes Grenzo is black :( BUT with infinite mana he would be the funiest kill :P

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Grenzo is, obviously, the best option. I can't believe I forgot him. You only need to play 1, it wins on it's own as soon as it resolves, and it's tutorable with matron. I have gone back and forth with having him in the deck anyhow, so it's not like you're adding much chaff to the deck. He does the same thing as recruiter, essentially, if you have infinite. You just put all but the top three cards of your deck into play and kill them.

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Originally Posted by egoblinsw

Grenzo is, obviously, the best option. I can't believe I forgot him. You only need to play 1, it wins on it's own as soon as it resolves, and it's tutorable with matron. I have gone back and forth with having him in the deck anyhow, so it's not like you're adding much chaff to the deck. He does the same thing as recruiter, essentially, if you have infinite. You just put all but the top three cards of your deck into play and kill them.

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Grenzo won't do it because foodchain mana can't pay for his ability. He'll be a infinitely big dude, but no more than that.

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Originally Posted by egoblinsw

Grenzo is, obviously, the best option. I can't believe I forgot him. You only need to play 1, it wins on it's own as soon as it resolves, and it's tutorable with matron. I have gone back and forth with having him in the deck anyhow, so it's not like you're adding much chaff to the deck. He does the same thing as recruiter, essentially, if you have infinite. You just put all but the top three cards of your deck into play and kill them.

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As @Von points out, Grenzo doesn't let you just flip your deck into play, he's just an infinitely sized creature. If you have prospector then you can dump your deck into play, which does seem to be the best food chain kill I've seen suggested so far. 3 goblins + Food chain and 8 ways to search via matron and ringleader seems like a pretty decent start for a strong combo. Kiki to double up on matron effects will be good too.

The trick will be making a food chain list that isn't quite reliant on food chain. We have to ask ourselves "why isn't this just worse than normal food chain?" because they get to play Force of Will and Deathrite shaman, which is a pretty damn big deal. We need to be either:

A: More consistent at comboing on the fundamental turn
B: Faster
C: Better at playing a "fair" game.

B and C seem most likely to me. With a lackey hit or two, we can probably kill with food chain resolving on t3 relatively often. C is also likely to be true, since our creatures are better than most of what food chain plays. Losing blue is a big loss though, so I guess we'll have to see if it's worth it overall.

I'm not super into the idea of playing food chain goblins honestly, I'm not a fan of combo decks in general, and I have no interest in buying a bunch of taigas and FCs to play a completely different deck just because it plays goblins in it. That said, I'm quite curious to see where this goes!

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Originally Posted by 1GoblinLackey

As @Von points out, Grenzo doesn't let you just flip your deck into play, he's just an infinitely sized creature. If you have prospector then you can dump your deck into play, which does seem to be the best food chain kill I've seen suggested so far. 3 goblins + Food chain and 8 ways to search via matron and ringleader seems like a pretty decent start for a strong combo. Kiki to double up on matron effects will be good too.

The trick will be making a food chain list that isn't quite reliant on food chain. We have to ask ourselves "why isn't this just worse than normal food chain?" because they get to play Force of Will and Deathrite shaman, which is a pretty damn big deal. We need to be either:

A: More consistent at comboing on the fundamental turn
B: Faster
C: Better at playing a "fair" game.

B and C seem most likely to me. With a lackey hit or two, we can probably kill with food chain resolving on t3 relatively often. C is also likely to be true, since our creatures are better than most of what food chain plays. Losing blue is a big loss though, so I guess we'll have to see if it's worth it overall.

I'm not super into the idea of playing food chain goblins honestly, I'm not a fan of combo decks in general, and I have no interest in buying a bunch of taigas and FCs to play a completely different deck just because it plays goblins in it. That said, I'm quite curious to see where this goes!

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There's no way this deck will best faster than the actual foodchain deck unless you have a godhand. 0 cantrips + ringleader which actively tucks your foodchains. Unless you're mulling to foodchain every game its just not going to happen. The only upside this has is that its going be better at playing the fair game, which is why there shouldn't be any big cuts to the core deck.

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Originally Posted by 1GoblinLackey

As @Von points out, Grenzo doesn't let you just flip your deck into play, he's just an infinitely sized creature. If you have prospector then you can dump your deck into play, which does seem to be the best food chain kill I've seen suggested so far. 3 goblins + Food chain and 8 ways to search via matron and ringleader seems like a pretty decent start for a strong combo. Kiki to double up on matron effects will be good too.

The trick will be making a food chain list that isn't quite reliant on food chain. We have to ask ourselves "why isn't this just worse than normal food chain?" because they get to play Force of Will and Deathrite shaman, which is a pretty damn big deal. We need to be either:

A: More consistent at comboing on the fundamental turn
B: Faster
C: Better at playing a "fair" game.

B and C seem most likely to me. With a lackey hit or two, we can probably kill with food chain resolving on t3 relatively often. C is also likely to be true, since our creatures are better than most of what food chain plays. Losing blue is a big loss though, so I guess we'll have to see if it's worth it overall.

I'm not super into the idea of playing food chain goblins honestly, I'm not a fan of combo decks in general, and I have no interest in buying a bunch of taigas and FCs to play a completely different deck just because it plays goblins in it. That said, I'm quite curious to see where this goes!

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Overall I agree. I tried out a bunch of goldfish games with FC but not squee, and came to the conclusion that FC and hitting with instigator do pretty much the same thing (get any goblin we want if there's a matron in hand). Obviously FC is better at it, but with it's own problems.

New note, I tried out an instigator list (after resisting for a whole year!) and loved it. I played:

4 Lackey
4 Instigator
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
3 Warchief
2 Incinerator
1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Settler
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Sharpshooter
1 Piledriver

4 Aether Vial
3 Chrome Mox
3 Tarfire
2 Pyrokinesis

4 Wasteland
3 Mountain
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Badlands
6 Fetchlands
2 Pendelhaven

SIDEBOARD
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Plague
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Pithing Needle
1 Earwig Squad

R1 WIN vs. Merfolk- We race, with him playing Lord, TNN, TNN, Image copying TNN. I killed lord, and manage to go around the True-Names for exact damage (after lackey triggers put in SGC to burn him out with Prospector) the turn he has 3 with me at nine. G2 he played smuggler's copter into a wall of lords, and I removed the lords and hit him with instigators. not terribly close.

R2 LOSS vs. 4c Leo- he's playing a Hymn to Tourac version, and Liliana the last hope. Lili neatly closed out both games after we traded resources for a bit.

R3 WIN vs Burn- G1 was incredibly close, with him missing the bolt with me at 1 on the final turn, and the burning him out with prospector SGC (a theme of the tournament) Both of us could have played better and probably won earlier. G2 he crushed me with searing blazes etc. G3 on the play he responds to lackey by making a blocker. I tarfire it and the game is essentially over with me putting in Ringleader and finding lackey, SGC, tarfire.

R4 WIN vs. Turbo Depths- One of those matches where you draw multiple wastelands and he never finds needle...
R5 Draw into T4

Semis Win vs same 4c Leo- G1 I got out to a good start with Instigators, then chained ringleaders together. G2 He marsh casualties killing 4 dudes, and wins. G3 He double hymned me, but I managed to eventually topdeck a SGC against very little pressure. SGC+ Pendelhaven limped across the finish line.

Finals WIN vs D+T- This was not a close or fun series. Absolutely crushed his mulligans both games.

I really liked having extra lackeys. Often I was able to go wide around multiple blockers and get a lackey in by having instigator blocked. Pendelhaven was awesome with lackey effects, turning T1 lackey into removal for DRS instead of getting stonewalled. I didn't face any big bogeymen like storm either, but the added speed of this build was noticable against burn and depths.

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Originally Posted by Von

There's no way this deck will best faster than the actual foodchain deck unless you have a godhand. 0 cantrips + ringleader which actively tucks your foodchains. Unless you're mulling to foodchain every game its just not going to happen. The only upside this has is that its going be better at playing the fair game, which is why there shouldn't be any big cuts to the core deck.

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But you have to make big cuts to the core deck to fit 4 Food Chain
If you try to play Vial and Foodchain then Ringleaders are going to be pretty bad.
If you cut Vial than your fair game still becomes considerably worse because you are leaning on Cavern to push 4 Drops through counters. Waste and Port also become much worse with no Vial.
If you cut e.g. Tarfire then Lackey becomes much less reliable.

I can't see a way that all the pieces fall into place such that you end up with a deck better than Manipulate Fate + Griffins

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Originally Posted by egoblinsw

Overall I agree. I tried out a bunch of goldfish games with FC but not squee, and came to the conclusion that FC and hitting with instigator do pretty much the same thing (get any goblin we want if there's a matron in hand). Obviously FC is better at it, but with it's own problems.

New note, I tried out an instigator list (after resisting for a whole year!) and loved it. I played:

4 Lackey
4 Instigator
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
3 Warchief
2 Incinerator
1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Settler
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Sharpshooter
1 Piledriver

4 Aether Vial
3 Chrome Mox
3 Tarfire
2 Pyrokinesis

4 Wasteland
3 Mountain
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Badlands
6 Fetchlands
2 Pendelhaven

SIDEBOARD
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Plague
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Pithing Needle
1 Earwig Squad

R1 WIN vs. Merfolk- We race, with him playing Lord, TNN, TNN, Image copying TNN. I killed lord, and manage to go around the True-Names for exact damage (after lackey triggers put in SGC to burn him out with Prospector) the turn he has 3 with me at nine. G2 he played smuggler's copter into a wall of lords, and I removed the lords and hit him with instigators. not terribly close.

R2 LOSS vs. 4c Leo- he's playing a Hymn to Tourac version, and Liliana the last hope. Lili neatly closed out both games after we traded resources for a bit.

R3 WIN vs Burn- G1 was incredibly close, with him missing the bolt with me at 1 on the final turn, and the burning him out with prospector SGC (a theme of the tournament) Both of us could have played better and probably won earlier. G2 he crushed me with searing blazes etc. G3 on the play he responds to lackey by making a blocker. I tarfire it and the game is essentially over with me putting in Ringleader and finding lackey, SGC, tarfire.

R4 WIN vs. Turbo Depths- One of those matches where you draw multiple wastelands and he never finds needle...
R5 Draw into T4

Semis Win vs same 4c Leo- G1 I got out to a good start with Instigators, then chained ringleaders together. G2 He marsh casualties killing 4 dudes, and wins. G3 He double hymned me, but I managed to eventually topdeck a SGC against very little pressure. SGC+ Pendelhaven limped across the finish line.

Finals WIN vs D+T- This was not a close or fun series. Absolutely crushed his mulligans both games.

I really liked having extra lackeys. Often I was able to go wide around multiple blockers and get a lackey in by having instigator blocked. Pendelhaven was awesome with lackey effects, turning T1 lackey into removal for DRS instead of getting stonewalled. I didn't face any big bogeymen like storm either, but the added speed of this build was noticable against burn and depths.

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3 x warchief and no chieftain at all? Looks strange for a winstigator build

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Originally Posted by menph

3 x warchief and no chieftain at all? Looks strange for a winstigator build

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Yup, I just pretty much ported over from my classic build. I will go to some number of cheiftans next time

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

But you have to make big cuts to the core deck to fit 4 Food Chain
If you try to play Vial and Foodchain then Ringleaders are going to be pretty bad.
If you cut Vial than your fair game still becomes considerably worse because you are leaning on Cavern to push 4 Drops through counters. Waste and Port also become much worse with no Vial.
If you cut e.g. Tarfire then Lackey becomes much less reliable.

I can't see a way that all the pieces fall into place such that you end up with a deck better than Manipulate Fate + Griffins

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One thing that sucks about new Squee + Food Chain is that the 2 card combo isn't sufficient to win. If there was a third card that set up an auto-win we could be in business. As it stands we still need a Skirk for infinite mana kills with Grenzo or SGC, we need some sac outlet to make infinitely large goblins with Raider or infinite damage with Sharpshooter, and we still need Kiki+Crafter to go that route. Basically we're talking about a 4 card combo for any sort of instant win with Food Chain and new Squee.

Unless someone has found a different combo that's only Food Chain + New Squee + Card X?

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

One thing that sucks about new Squee + Food Chain is that the 2 card combo isn't sufficient to win. If there was a third card that set up an auto-win we could be in business. As it stands we still need a Skirk for infinite mana kills with Grenzo or SGC, we need some sac outlet to make infinitely large goblins with Raider or infinite damage with Sharpshooter, and we still need Kiki+Crafter to go that route. Basically we're talking about a 4 card combo for any sort of instant win with Food Chain and new Squee.

Unless someone has found a different combo that's only Food Chain + New Squee + Card X?

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This is why I said Sledder/Raider is probably good
Food Chain + Squee + Sledder = infinite damage, provided you have any goblin that can attack (I don't know why you say you need a sac outlet for Raider, it's basically the same card)

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

This is why I said Sledder/Raider is probably good
Food Chain + Squee + Sledder = infinite damage, provided you have any goblin that can attack (I don't know why you say you need a sac outlet for Raider, it's basically the same card)

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Mogg Raider = Goblin Sledder

Oh I see what you're saying now. Raider is a sac outlet for Sharpshooter combo kills. But you're also right that if you have more attackers than opponent has blockers you can win with FC, Squu + Raider/Sledder. The only problem though is that it is still a 4 card combo unless your opponent has no blockers. So on paper it's 3 card but in practice it would still be 4 cards+.

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

Unless someone has found a different combo that's only Food Chain + New Squee + Card X?

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If you just need it, Walking ballista would be a good 3rd piece for the combo and I think could do some work in fair MU without FC as well (even better if we play some tombs)
But we all know the problem about non-goblin cards and lacking of cantrips..

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

One thing that sucks about new Squee + Food Chain is that the 2 card combo isn't sufficient to win. If there was a third card that set up an auto-win we could be in business. As it stands we still need a Skirk for infinite mana kills with Grenzo or SGC, we need some sac outlet to make infinitely large goblins with Raider or infinite damage with Sharpshooter, and we still need Kiki+Crafter to go that route. Basically we're talking about a 4 card combo for any sort of instant win with Food Chain and new Squee.

Unless someone has found a different combo that's only Food Chain + New Squee + Card X?

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Boggart sheningans would do it.
Make a shit load of mana with Squee.
Than keep on sacrificing him to Bogaert ecast him etc. Less vunerable than a combo with 3 creatures and u dont need combat, redundant to creature removal etc..

Boggart can be cheaten in by lackey OR winstagator.
Wich makes a turn 3 kill easy

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Originally Posted by dissy

Boggart sheningans would do it.
Make a shit load of mana with Squee.
Than keep on sacrificing him to Bogaert ecast him etc. Less vunerable than a combo with 3 creatures and u dont need combat, redundant to creature removal etc..

Boggart can be cheaten in by lackey OR winstagator.
Wich makes a turn 3 kill easy

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But this is still a 4 card combo because you need FC + Squee + Boggart + Sac Outlet
It's still vulnerable to creature removal unless you're using a non-creature sac outlet which means that you wouldn't be able to find it with matron/ringleader...

Unless your 'sac outlet' is a second Squee, and you get Shenanigans triggers by repeatedly legend-ruling the first one
This would make the combo immune to creature removal because if your opponent tries to kill any Squee you can just exile it in response and play it again, maybe this is actually an ok idea
It also reinforces the consistency of the combo by giving you more incentive to play multiple Squees

Note that you can put BShenanigans into play with Lackey but not with Instigator, and not being able to cast it off food chain mana might still be a significant issue
This combo also works by replacing Shenanigans with Sharpshooter but then summoning sickness means you might not be able to win the game immediately, and now you are vulnerable to creature removal again

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

Unless someone has found a different combo that's only Food Chain + New Squee + Card X?

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X=Clickslither... Haste and trample, but you can't tutor it.
Edit: Walking ballista is better... neither of them are good in Vial goblin

A three card combo that involves 2 non-goblins probably doesn’t fit a goblins deck. You’re probably just better off running the standard food chain list.


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Just a niptick: Warren Instigator cannot put Shenanigans into play. Lackey can.

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

But this is still a 4 card combo because you need FC + Squee + Boggart + Sac Outlet
It's still vulnerable to creature removal unless you're using a non-creature sac outlet which means that you wouldn't be able to find it with matron/ringleader...

Unless your 'sac outlet' is a second Squee, and you get Shenanigans triggers by repeatedly legend-ruling the first one
This would make the combo immune to creature removal because if your opponent tries to kill any Squee you can just exile it in response and play it again, maybe this is actually an ok idea
It also reinforces the consistency of the combo by giving you more incentive to play multiple Squees

Note that you can put BShenanigans into play with Lackey but not with Instigator, and not being able to cast it off food chain mana might still be a significant issue
This combo also works by replacing Shenanigans with Sharpshooter but then summoning sickness means you might not be able to win the game immediately

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Playing goblin chirurgeon could serve as both protection and sac outlet at the same time.

HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION ALERT:

So let's say deathrite shaman gets the banhammer in legacy. I'm interested in everyone's opinions on a couple things.

1. How will this affect goblins in the legacy metagame?

2. How will the core of the deck change (if at all) as a result?

I'm curious because while deathrite is really bad for us, I wonder if it will increase the number of fast reanimator or other gy combo strategies. I mean I know shaman stonewalls lackey, but we still have tarfires and gempalms to deal with it.

Bonus question: If goblin recruiter were ever unbanned, would it be an auto-include for us?

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Originally Posted by joaquin

HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION ALERT:

So let's say deathrite shaman gets the banhammer in legacy. I'm interested in everyone's opinions on a couple things.

1. How will this affect goblins in the legacy metagame?

2. How will the core of the deck change (if at all) as a result?

I'm curious because while deathrite is really bad for us, I wonder if it will increase the number of fast reanimator or other gy combo strategies. I mean I know shaman stonewalls lackey, but we still have tarfires and gempalms to deal with it.

Bonus question: If goblin recruiter were ever unbanned, would it be an auto-include for us?

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For sure any gy strategy will gain metagame percentage. MD gy-hate in something around 50% of the meta, keep those deck in check a lot. From this perspective the unban could damage us since we are weak to some of these decks, expecially reanimator.
I think the first change I would do to my list would be to cut 1 or 2 tarfire in favor or more gempalms. I definitely prefer the second one since can burn down big dudes and cycle itself, but all the x/2s on T1 force us to play the full set of tarfire.
I think this would be almost automatic, then the other changes would be dictate from metagame changes.

Anyway frankly speaking I don't think DRS need to be banned, it would hit not only grixis delver but a lot of non-blue DRS deck too. Probe deserves it way more

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