Cutting an ichorid is fine, they are redundant and not needed as a 4 of. MD leylines are fine. But personaly I dont like it.(granted it is SO good vs threshold when they crypt you and putrid im can stop a Goyf HAHAHAH) Also stops IGGy combo
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Cutting an ichorid is fine, they are redundant and not needed as a 4 of. MD leylines are fine. But personaly I dont like it.(granted it is SO good vs threshold when they crypt you and putrid im can stop a Goyf HAHAHAH) Also stops IGGy combo
Clearly leyline is not a good cards for the MD. When I begin to play the deck I want they only versus :
-combo why use the graveayard (IGG and mirror)
-goblin or an other aggro with mogg fanatic (for save my bridge)
But after test I cut they because I see I can win more frequently against they without with a better list, except against IGG but it is not played in my meta.
My list :
4 Cephalid coliseum
3 Underground sea
4 lotus petal
4 Lion's eye diamond
4 careful study
4 breakthrough
4 bridge from below
3 dread return
2 deep analysis
4 narcomoeba
4 ichorid
4 golgari-grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
2/3 golgari thug
2/3 street wraith
1 cephalid sage
1 Yosei, morning star
1 angel of despair
SB :
4 putrid imp
4 chalice of the void
4 chain of vapor
3 pithing needle
Explication about my build :
After playing a classic version and test different version (without LED for example :p) but I'm really unsatisfied. When a friend show to me this version I test it a little and I feel it is really better than the other.
1/ The draw engine is really good. We can easly turn over your library in the turn 2, and more regulary than the others versions with lotus petal, careful study and street wraith. I play only 2 deep instead of the 3 because I never have 2 land for play it and with a break/careful/coliseum and a LED I can dredge for find it.
Play without putrid imp it is really not a problem. careful can also discard troll, imp and thug. I have the same number of black creature with angel of despair and street wraith. And finally the only real problem for make an optimal dredge is with breakthrough and putrid imp doesn't help for it. I can alway play a cabal and target myself for discard a dredge if I have not in graveyard.
2/ The kill is, imho, a little better than the 1X cephalid sage + 1 FKZ + 1 Woodfall Primus.
Angel of despair is black and it is her principal quality in a lot of games. But when I use it I never break more than one permanent for win. And kill a creature is so rare but it usefull against Faerie Stompy.
And about FKZ VS Yosei it is really a question of feeling. With Yosei you can play and win without bridge and just with two or three attacks with ichorids. For it we do reanimate Yosei, sacrifice it in a cabal (so you don't care about stp in it) for tap their creature and play an other turn. And if it is not sufficient you can again reanimate Yosei. If you have your bridge in this turn you don't care if the opponant draw an tormod. The only apparent bad point is against storm because tap land is not usefull. But if you have creature in table and a big graveyard you can empty his hand with cabals.
3/ The sideboard
I test a lot of unusual card like ray of revelation, ancient grudge of other bounce than chain of vapor.
In my meta tormod is two or three more played than leyline so chain is sufficient.
With angel of dispair I don't need ancient grudge and ray of revelation.
And with my version I don't need also leyline.
So I optimised my list against the more frequently hate I see : Tormod's crypt and Engineered explosives (and extirpate but I cann'ot stop it).
For it I play chalice X4 when I begin. It is not affecter by the FS chalice in 1 and block tormod and EE when opponant haven't colorless mana.
I add needle X3 against the same card but I can use it also when the opponant begin (in the game 2 ;)).
And finally I put my 4 putrid imp in sideboard. And it is really find against all controls.
Supplementay information :
-When I side I cut 1 cephalid sage (except MU I want all my cabal), 3 street wrait for win stability against the hate without lost the global strategy.
-I really can't cut an ichorid because I regulary kill just with they.
-Cabal therapy is really too powerfull. It is better than leyline in all the MU.
Thanks for read me and sorry for my english.
I can't help but shake my head at Street Wraith and Lotus Petal replacing Putrid Imp and lands. It seems like even though you could have a lot of t1 explosiveness, you sacrifice a lot of consistiency, in that often, a one-lander with PImp is keepable, but the same one-petal hand would not be-especially with Wraith replacing Imp.
Question: Does the DDD plan change against Black Thresh, where giving them a few turns of toppin' and trippin' brutally increases their ability to find Extirpates?
A land with a land and imp is keepable ? We play combo, guy so we couldn't keep a hand without draw way (except after mulligans). And I have 12 way for discard instead of 12-14 in our versions but I have 17 way of draw (4 careful, 4 breakthrough, 4 cephalid, 3 street wraith & 2 deep) instead of 13 (4 breakthrough, 2 careful, 4 cephalid & 3 deep).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
I have not ugly hand with LED + putrid imp. A hand with putrid imp and breakthrough is not broken to. Hand with double careful, careful + break, careful + LED are speed. A hand with 2 breakthrough, a land and a lotus petal is also broken.
I remember when I play the "classic" version I thinked putrid imp is really pretty good but in reality he is no necessary, we can discard by other way (wait when you have 7 cards in hand represent the same wasted time.
DDD ? Dredge Discard Dread ? Draw Dredge Discard ?Quote:
Question: Does the DDD plan change against Black Thresh, where giving them a few turns of toppin' and trippin' brutally increases their ability to find Extirpates?
And black ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh is not a played deck in my area. When I test against it I'm too fast so he can only make one extirpate and he have a lot of target to remove because I can kill it fastly with bridge or ichorid (thanks Yosei). When he remove a dredger I lose one or two turns for discard an other but finally I win.
[QUOTE=ASSASSIN;239895]A land with a land and imp is keepable ? We play combo, guy so we couldn't keep a hand without draw way (except after mulligans). And I have 12 way for discard instead of 12-14 in our versions but I have 17 way of draw (4 careful, 4 breakthrough, 4 cephalid, 3 street wraith & 2 deep) instead of 13 (4 breakthrough, 2 careful, 4 cephalid & 3 deep).
I have not ugly hand with LED + putrid imp. A hand with putrid imp and breakthrough is not broken to. Hand with double careful, careful + break, careful + LED are speed. A hand with 2 breakthrough, a land and a lotus petal is also broken.
I remember when I play the "classic" version I thinked putrid imp is really pretty good but in reality he is no necessary, we can discard by other way (wait when you have 7 cards in hand represent the same wasted time.
QUOTE]
a) I mean Land+Imp as opposed to Petal+SW. Even with a draw spell in there, the land is clearly superior because you can use it once turn 1 to cast a spell, and again turn 2 to cast a spell/activate coliseum.
c) Speed may be nice, but bear in mind that after a turn 1 Petal+LED+Study opener, you better be set off of the maximum, being charitable, 19 cards in your graveyard, because there's no way to recover.
c) Since you should always choose to play anyway, Putrid Imp is a whole turn faster than draw/discard. Cast turn 1, discard during upkeep turn 2, start dredging in draw step. As opposed to draw turn 2, discard at end of turn turn 2, wait a whole turn.
d) Lotus Petal is worse than land for playing through hate, since the mana you need to spend answering threats can not then be used for going for broken. It also interacts problematically with a chalice at 0.
@Nihil: DDD is generally only good until turn 3-4 or so, which is not going to be quite enough time for Thresh to get its 'pate on, especially with all those zombies and horrors you'll be sending their way without casting a spell. Anyway, you don't strictly need it vs. Thresh, since you will in general have more ways to get stuff into the yard then they have counters for it
re·dun·dantQuote:
Originally Posted by undone
2. being in excess; exceeding what is usual or natural: a redundant part.
3. having some unusual or extra part or feature.
How are multiple Ichorids redundant? Beating for 6 and getting 2*X tokens afterwards > beating for 3 and getting X tokens afterwards, right? Also, multiple Ichorids can be used to feed each other to force the last points of damage through. Only Extended lists played 3 Ichorids, and that's a) because they usually kill with Dread Return, unlike this deck, which usually kills with Ichorid and Zombie beats; and b) because the Extended meta forced the deck to play mainboard Darkblasts over Golgari Thug, resulting in insufficient Ichorid fodder to support it as a four-of.
ASSASSIN: Yosei is crap. If you don't have Therapy, Simic Sky Swallower is strictly better, and if you have Therapy you could just use it to take the hate you want to prevent them from playing. If you have recurring Ichorids, chances are you win without tapping their board. If you have Bridges (so you can return Yosei a second time), Yosei is just win more.
This is exactly why I refuse to call Ichorid a "Combo Deck". It's aggro with the possibility of going combo-style broken. A hand with Land + Imp + Dredger is absolutely keepable. Chances are that you won't be able to race fast combo or a superb Goblins draw. So what. You can't mulligan for a broken hand reliably.Quote:
Originally Posted by ASSASSIN
Truth. You have ugly hand with LED + Street Wraith instead - since you play Street Wraith in the same slot in which I play Putrid Imp.Quote:
Originally Posted by ASSASSIN
Not if your mana source is a Lotus Petal. I really recommend cutting Petals for Lands. Ozymandias also made some pretty good points.Quote:
Originally Posted by ASSASSIN
Actually this is a question I've never asked myself: usually I don't see Black Thresh boarding in Extirpates. I see them boarding in Jailers, which is WAY worse and makes the DDD plan close to "absolutely unviable". A deck against which I fear Extirpates is, e.g., UWb Landstill (and some 4c variants). While Landstill usually is very slow they have a huge range of possibilities to interfere with your gameplan if you're not fast enough - multiple Extirpates, multiple Engineered Plagues, Academy Ruins + Engineered Explosives, removing Bridges by wasting Factories, 3 StoPs on 3 Ichorids - infinite possibilities. In this matchup I usually board in Simic Sky Swallower, because the only card that deals with him they might be playing is Wrath of God - he still wins after double Extirpate, double Engineered Plague or Ruins+Explosives lock. Also, I only do the DDD plan if there's some serious business to follow up with (example hand: GGT, GGT, Dread Return, Golgari Thug, Ichorid, City of Brass, Cephalid Coliseum), otherwise I just look to keep a hand that is able to play a spell, and if I find a hand that is able to play two spells (playing through Force), I'm pretty close to winning if they don't have the nuts (double Extirpate on turn 2 - it has happened to me).Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
EDIT: I just noticed that UWb Landstill started playing Runed Halo. Crap. Here goes the SSS plan.
Can we post your version when you speack about the differences ? Because when I read two or three times : "you play street wraith instead of putrid imp" I understand all of our versions play 4 breakthrough + 4 lion's eye diamond + 4 careful study. But clearly it is false. But I play careful X4 (instead of X4 putrid imp) and with LED and breakthrough I have 12 way for discard. It is enough.
Ozymandias ->
So you compare a hand petal + street with a hand land + imp si since compare a hand land + careful with a hand land with FKZ. It is useless.Quote:
a) I mean Land+Imp as opposed to Petal+SW. Even with a draw spell in there, the land is clearly superior because you can use it once turn 1 to cast a spell, and again turn 2 to cast a spell/activate coliseum.
And if you have a hand with 1 land (coliseum for exemple) + 1 petal lotus + 1 breakthrough have you alway sure land > petal ?
The really bad hand is with petal lotus + putrid imp : you can't play the draw spell. But I don't play putrid imp MD so I have not this problem .
I'm not sure to understand your post. With LED + petal + study + 2 GGT I have 19 cards in my GY in turn 1. And if I have a street wraith I can add in maximum 6 cards. If I have a cephalid coliseum I can add 18 cards. And if I reveal a deep analysis I can add in maximum 12 other cards. And after I can reanimate a Cephalid sage or a Yosei. That since I regulary have my kill in place in turn 1 or two with this hand. So what is the problem ?Quote:
b (I guess :p) ) Speed may be nice, but bear in mind that after a turn 1 Petal+LED+Study opener, you better be set off of the maximum, being charitable, 19 cards in your graveyard, because there's no way to recover.
And sure I can't play an other spell of draw but I discard my dredger after the careful so I can alaways dredge.
I choose to wait for discard only when my opponant begin, so I discard at end of turn 1. If I have a careful study instead of the putrid I can also play it turn one for discard. I can juste have an avantage if I keep an hand with 7 cards when my opponant begin.Quote:
c) Since you should always choose to play anyway, Putrid Imp is a whole turn faster than draw/discard. Cast turn 1, discard during upkeep turn 2, start dredging in draw step. As opposed to draw turn 2, discard at end of turn turn 2, wait a whole turn.
I think about it when I begin to play the deck. But sure if I want play a needle or a putrid imp and after a draw spell I need a land.Quote:
d) Lotus Petal is worse than land for playing through hate, since the mana you need to spend answering threats can not then be used for going for broken. It also interacts problematically with a chalice at 0.
And about the chalice at 0 all adverse chalice are always is in one. And about mine, I can put petal before play chalice at 0. And when chalice at 0 is in play I play only with my graveyard so I don't play any spell at 0.
brehn ->
I'm agree about ichorid. When do play the playset in legacy.
cabal is not my only way for sac Yosei, I have also dread return. So I have always a way for sacrifice it. AndQuote:
Yosei is crap. If you don't have Therapy, Simic Sky Swallower is strictly better, and if you have Therapy you could just use it to take the hate you want to prevent them from playing. If you have recurring Ichorids, chances are you win without tapping their board. If you have Bridges (so you can return Yosei a second time), Yosei is just win more.
And win just with recursive ichorid is a dream in actual legacy. Goblin, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, Stompy, Aggro loam and dreadnought can kill you fastly, or block for use all the black creature in my graveyard. And control need his mana for find his solution.
When have bridge Yosei is also a win more that FKZ. With the first you block opponant (and prevent EE or pernicious deed) and with the second we kill in the turn. Have no difference. Except when you can product 6 token, you can't kill with FKZ but you can tap the opponant build with Yosei and win with the ichorid the next turn.
With an aggressive mulligan I win almost of my games one. With the aggro mode I don't.Quote:
This is exactly why I refuse to call Ichorid a "Combo Deck". It's aggro with the possibility of going combo-style broken. A hand with Land + Imp + Dredger is absolutely keepable. Chances are that you won't be able to race fast combo or a superb Goblins draw. So what. You can't mulligan for a broken hand reliably.
But After the side it is dependant of my opponant deck. Against control I try to keep a hand in 7 for discard a card before playing for dredge even if my opponant have a counterspell. Against aggro-control I try to keep an hand a little speed but consistent too.
Against combo I mulligan for an explosive begin for make fastly my cabal.
Against aggro I mulligan aggressive for find or a card anti-hate and a normal begin or a very fast begin.
Runed halo against ? cabal ? ichorid ? he can't name zombie because it is not a Magic card.Quote:
EDIT: I just noticed that UWb Landstill started playing Runed Halo. Crap. Here goes the SSS plan.
My version:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum (personal taste)
1 Undiscovered Paradise (personal taste)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Putrid Imp
2 Deep Analysis
3 Careful Study - ok, I don't play 4. Still, 1 Putrid Imp could be easily replaced with the fourth
2 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage
So - if you remove an Imp for a Study - you play Street Wraith in my Putrid Imp-slot. Those are 15 discard-outlets, not counting Therapy.
Apparently, I'm living in a dream :[ In the last 13 games I've won with this deck in an actual tournament, I've cast a total number of 5 Dread Returns. And I didn't win the other games with Golgari Thug and Narcomoeba beats.Quote:
And win just with recursive ichorid is a dream in actual legacy.
I really don't think it's the right strategy to mulligan for $blue spell or LED. Chances are that I find some time and do some statistical research on how often this should lead to the deck crapping out.Quote:
With an aggressive mulligan I win almost of my games one. With the aggro mode I don't.
(The Runed Halo thingy was about Simic Sky Swallower, a possible non-handleable solution to opposing Extirpates. Unfortunately, Halo stops it. Halo on Ichorid might also hurt, of course.)
Landstill is another deck that Primus is the nuts against. You can Therapy them out of counterspells, dread Return away a permanet, and then sacrifice for another therapy to do it again.
you already have an amazing game against landstill, that is just killmore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brehn
Odd I don't think I've gone a single game without casting a Dread Return. And i have been playing the deck in weekly legacy tournaments for the past 4 months now.
Anyway here is my current build and a tournament report for the Friday tournament I placed 4th in.
Land: 11
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise
Creatures: 24
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
3 Golgari Thug
3 Putrid Imp
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
Spells: 17
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
2 Deep Analysis
Artifacts: 4
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Enchantments: 4
4 Bridge from Below
Sideboard: 15
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Bogardan Hellkite
So every thing is pretty normal for me in the main deck. I do have to explain that my sideboard is the way it is because I do not have access to leyline of the void or pithing needle. Swords to plowshares never really got sided in so I don't know if it would work or not. The extra land in the side was to support rays and swords in case they were sided in.
This was the very short tournament I attended:
Round 1 Phillipe playing G/B control with MAINdeck Extripates
Game 1: I had played him last week and he was also running main deck Leylines but I asked him after our match and he had moved them to the sideboard. Game one was very good for me, he saw absolutely no hate and I was stripping his hand with therapies. I was also making tokens and beating with Ichorids. He then managed to wipe out my tokens with a narcoplasm and got me down to 10. I then Dread return a 15/15 Troll followed by a 13/13 and a few Ichorids. GG
Game 2: I know he sides in Leylines so I side in Chain of Vapor He gets one right away and says go I play land go he ends his turn and I bounce the Leyline. I then therapy him for it and find that he had drawn another one :). I pretty much follow the same route as game 1 and return a 13/13 troll because his only blocker is a nether spirit and a narcoplasm and I eventually beat with Ichorids. As a side note he mistakenly extripated my breakthroughs instead of targeting cabal therapy which might have one him the game.
1-0 Games (2-0)
Round 2 Thomas playing R/G Beats? Burn?
Game 1: He opens with mogg fanatic I dredge into 1 bridge and 3 ichorids. I return ichorids not seeing any bridges. However it does not matter as he cant produce blockers.
Game 2: He opens with mogg fanatic Tormods crypt. I get a pretty nutsy hand and play around the crypt because I had a bridge and an ichorid in grave. I play breakthrough and in response attempt to bounce the crypt forcing him to break it. I then draw 2 dredgers and an ichorid of breakthrough and soon take the game.
2-0 Games (4-0)
Round 3 U/w/g Thresh.
Game 1: I wreck him with by baiting a daze targeting my Led and carefulstudy discarding 2 dredgers. Next turn I play a therapy followed by breakthrough. I beat with 3 ichorids.
Game 2: I know he is running leylines in the side as I had seen him play earlier. I decide to be tricksy instead of playing it right. I have a chain of vapor in hand and he has a top. He goes to fetch and in response I decide to chain of vapor. I had backup mana for daze. he is forced to top and finds a force of will. How lucky. I did get him to shuffle his top away though as he forgot I had bounced in response to fetch. I then go 4 turns without seeing another chain even after playing 2 breaktroughs for 1 :(
Game 3: He keeps a seven card hand with 2 leylines. :( WHAT. I can only deal with 1 and lose very quickly to 2 tarmogoyfs. What a crazy sideboard choice I mean he has no way of hard casting the thing.
2-1 Games (5-2)
Round 4 Ricky playing mono black.
Game 1: he rituals and plays negator. I combo off and beat for the win.
Game 2: I breakthrough discarding 2 trolls and say go. He then rituals and plays withered wretch and removes all my good stuff. I cant recover after that.
Game 3: I get the nuts and combo off with out any damage taken on my part.
3-1 Games (7-3)
The tournaments have been very short now for a while but I am getting a diverse number of decks to play against. I was very disappointed with the thresh game but what can I do? I could have bounced the last leyline but he had counter top combo online and it was over.
Nice result! It shows that Threshold can, from time to time, be troublesome if they have a random sideboard like this one did.
- Did you miss SB Leylines?
- How was the Hellkite?
I have a question about openinghands in Ichorid.
What do you do with this hand, in any situation in the 1st game of a round(play/draw/aggro/control/combo)
LED, Breakthrough, Grave-Troll, 4 Randoms
I've seen this hand way too many a time and it has annoyed my to the point that I went from 11 to 12 land. This hand without a land feels so underwhelming. While with just one land, it's the recepy for a turn one big-dredge. I've seen myself toss this for 6 new ones, but that feels wrong too. What do you do?
If you know you are playing against blue control, keep it and if your first draw is not a land/DA, just go EOT discard mode. Otherwise ship it back for a new 6, there are plenty better 6 card hands out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayk0l
Actually I didn't miss the sideboard leylines however I wouldn't cut them. I just didn't run into a deck that was too problematic. Hellkite never went in against anything it was basically the random part of the side because of lack of available cards. If I were to run any creature in the side it would be like an extra zealot or sage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayk0l
I agree with Dont_Stop_Believin I would keep against a deck i know I can slow play otherwise I mull. I was actually running 10 lands at one time but added 1 and I think I will work the last one in. I REALY like Undiscovered paradise and wish I had more. I really do believe in replacing City of brass because I have had many a situation where Gemstone mine gave me threshhold. (Odd I know)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dont_Stop_Believin
Would you count Threshold as Blue Control for this purpose?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4815162342
Why Paradise? Because it makes the DDD game stronger? It looks like it makes hitting 2 mana for DA harder.. Did you have any trouble with that?
Yes, Threshold is the msot popular form of blue [aggro]control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayk0l
Also, Paradise isnt good if you need 2 mana on turn 2 or need to cast something on consecutives turns, I cant even justify running 1, I dont know anyone would want to run 4...
I don't really see how running a singleton Paradise is going to significantly stop you from having two mana on turn two. The only situation that could possibly come up is having the Paradise in your opening hand, needing to make a turn one play, and then needing to make a two mana play on the next turn with one of the lands that you luckily ripped off the top of your deck. Also, what do you urgently need to play for two mana? Chalice at 1...on turn two? Maybe Breakthrough for one? Flashback Deep Analysis? It's a two-of in most builds, and honestly I would much rather have that time walk if my only dicard outlet is countered turn one and I need to revert to DDD. The number of times that I've paid the flashback on Deep Analysis with mana from lands is much smaller than the number of times my turn one (and only) discard outlet was countered and I needed to wait multiple turns just to get something in the yard.
Why Paradise? Because it makes the DDD game stronger? It looks like it makes hitting 2 mana for DA harder.. Did you have any trouble with that?
This
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshine
On a side note I guess it would be less than optimal to run more than 2. I don't think I have needed to cast deep analysis with lands at all. Either I had an led or I preferred to animate a cephalid sage. :P
Does this deck benefit from Brainstorm as a dredge accelerator?