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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
millerd33
So we have decided to make this discussion unproductive?
"You have to draw the line, and you are saying that a turn one 14 card draw is below your line, and I am saying it's way above my line."
and leave it at that.
No one told you to go play anything. What I did say was what show and tell does is no more broken or degenerate then so many other things that are legal in legacy when left unchecked.
It takes way more then 2 weeks of results to say a card should be axed. Give people a chance to react and prepare for these decks. If at that point they are still putting up numbers where it's play x or play to beat x then by all mean it deserves the ban.
Not sure if you were trying to troll me with your comments but that type of post I would not expect to get on this site.
No, I'm sorry if you can't understand what I am saying. Words are hard. I will try to rephrase for clarity.
A: You are in a thread that was specifically created to talk about banning cards, and you are complaining that people are talking about banning cards. o_O?
B: We all agree that Black lotus is too powerful for legacy. You believe show and tell into Griselbrand on turn 1 or 2 is not too powerful for legacy, while I (and others) believe that it is too powerful. We have a difference of opinion. I have strongly disliked Grisdelbrand from the first time I played against it, weeks ago. I am upset that Wizards created a card with such a busted mechanic with absolutely zero regard with how easy it is to cheat it into play in eternal formats. They could have at least given it a delayed trigger or required it to tap to activate. The SCG results are just beginning to show how degenerate the interaction really is, and I believe it will only get worse. I may be wrong and the format will adapt but that doesn't change my opinion of it.
There is no need to put down my arguments or infer that I am a troll because I disagree with you.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Star|Scream
No, I'm sorry if you can't understand what I am saying. Words are hard. I will try to rephrase for clarity.
A: You are in a thread that was specifically created to talk about banning cards, and you are complaining that people are talking about banning cards. o_O?
B: We all agree that Black lotus is too powerful for legacy. You believe show and tell into Griselbrand on turn 1 or 2 is not too powerful for legacy, while I (and others) believe that it is too powerful. We have a difference of opinion. I have strongly disliked Grisdelbrand from the first time I played against it, weeks ago. I am upset that Wizards created a card with such a busted mechanic with absolutely zero regard with how easy it is to cheat it into play in eternal formats. They could have at least given it a delayed trigger or required it to tap to activate. The SCG results are just beginning to show how degenerate the interaction really is, and I believe it will only get worse. I may be wrong and the format will adapt but that doesn't change my opinion of it.
There is no need to put down my arguments or infer that I am a troll because I disagree with you.
I disagree with your opinion that sneak and show is too powerful for legacy. Legacy has always been a turn 2 format and this deck doesn't even win the game by turn 3.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TooCloseToTheSun
I disagree with your opinion that sneak and show is too powerful for legacy. Legacy has always been a turn 2 format and this deck doesn't even win the game by turn 3.
No, the game isn't won on turn 3. It will take Griselbrand 3 more turns to technically win, but isn't that just semantics? I contend that a turn 1 Griselbrand is just as lethal as a turn 1 tendrils
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Metalwalker
Holy Cow, Maverick was dominating forever, and when it does play Brainstorm, we can start banning it!
Brainstorm being restricted in Vintage does not necessarily mean that it should be banned in Legacy. The two formats are entirely different and it can be argued that Brainstorm is the defining pillar of Legacy (where blue maintains its stronghold in eternal formats). I will continue to argue that blue NEEDS to be a stronghold in any eternal format, otherwise people will be whining at unwinnable Belcher/SI/insert-balls-in-wall-combo.format.
Thankfully, blue control-based decks can be stopped these days easily by non-blue decks (Maverick, Nic Fit, Rock etc). The only pure strength of blue comes when you have an exceptional pilot piloting decks that rape good decks in the format aka Thresh. CT has always raped good decks under the hands of good pilots, and this is nothing new, and does not add to the argument that Brainstorm needs to go. In fact, it's hilarious that as we were talking about Brainstorm being the culprit again, Maverick has gone on a stomping streak for months.
Now an old archetype of SnT/Sneak has surfaced again and people haven't been prepared against it, so inevitably the "B/R update speculation" thread gets active again. Aside from MM and Vengevine, I seriously doubt that any card has shaken and unbalanced the format yet. Even a powerhouse like Delver could still be considered fair, although edging on the 'overpowered' side of Legacy cards.
Maverick isn't dominating anything, it's only strong against U decks in this format. And the people that like Brainstorm can't adapt to that, so Maverick will win against them.
That U has to be the best color in Legacy is simply not true. U got with Delver one of the best 1 drop creatures, why shouldn't other colors get free MB hate against Storm?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Star|Scream
No, I'm sorry if you can't understand what I am saying. Words are hard. I will try to rephrase for clarity.
A: You are in a thread that was specifically created to talk about banning cards, and you are complaining that people are talking about banning cards. o_O?
B: We all agree that Black lotus is too powerful for legacy. You believe show and tell into Griselbrand on turn 1 or 2 is not too powerful for legacy, while I (and others) believe that it is too powerful. We have a difference of opinion. I have strongly disliked Grisdelbrand from the first time I played against it, weeks ago. I am upset that Wizards created a card with such a busted mechanic with absolutely zero regard with how easy it is to cheat it into play in eternal formats. They could have at least given it a delayed trigger or required it to tap to activate. The SCG results are just beginning to show how degenerate the interaction really is, and I believe it will only get worse. I may be wrong and the format will adapt but that doesn't change my opinion of it.
There is no need to put down my arguments or infer that I am a troll because I disagree with you.
I personally find LED more opressive than SnT, because fair decks have abysmal win chances against it. I can pack 3 Traps, 2 Cannonists, 4 Enlightened Tutor, 4 Thalia and 4 Phyrexian Revoker and the chance of winning is bad. When I pack the same amount of hate against SnT, my chance is at least decent.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Star|Scream
No, the game isn't won on turn 3. It will take Griselbrand 3 more turns to technically win, but isn't that just semantics? I contend that a turn 1 Griselbrand is just as lethal as a turn 1 tendrils
First off, the probability of turn 1 anything is like 3%, that is nothing. Stop making it seem like this deck goes off turn 1 all the time, because it doesn't. Saying things like that make me think you haven't ever played against or with the deck. Secondly, when you can Sword or Path a Tendrils of Agony let me know.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Im not in the mood of writing a long text, so I will make it short.
Ive been playing SneakAttack for about a year now. It's always been strong. It's always been unfair. But there have always been cards I lost against. These cards are getting more and more over the time - one of the recent ones - Thalia. Yes I can drop a T1 Emrakul vs Maverick, but what if they drop a Knight/Karakas. Yes I can drop a Griselbrand, but what if they Stifle the first activiation and Daze the Counterspell from the next 7 cards? What if I play vs CounterThopter? What if I play vs (a well built) Team America? Guys there are so many (decks) strategies that rape SneakShow. Learn to adapt. Learn to play magic.
Greetings
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Philipp802
Im not in the mood of writing a long text, so I will make it short.
Ive been playing SneakAttack for about a year now. It's always been strong. It's always been unfair. But there have always been cards I lost against. These cards are getting more and more over the time - one of the recent ones - Thalia. Yes I can drop a T1 Emrakul vs Maverick, but what if they drop a Knight/Karakas. Yes I can drop a Griselbrand, but what if they Stifle the first activiation and Daze the Counterspell from the next 7 cards? What if I play vs CounterThopter? What if I play vs (a well built) Team America? Guys there are so many (decks) strategies that rape SneakShow. Learn to adapt. Learn to play magic.
Greetings
This. Its not like Sneak/Show has 50+% winning percentage against the whole field. This is what sideboards are for if you don't have meta-game decks.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Star|Scream
No, I'm sorry if you can't understand what I am saying. Words are hard. I will try to rephrase for clarity.
A: You are in a thread that was specifically created to talk about banning cards, and you are complaining that people are talking about banning cards. o_O?
B: We all agree that Black lotus is too powerful for legacy. You believe show and tell into Griselbrand on turn 1 or 2 is not too powerful for legacy, while I (and others) believe that it is too powerful. We have a difference of opinion. I have strongly disliked Grisdelbrand from the first time I played against it, weeks ago. I am upset that Wizards created a card with such a busted mechanic with absolutely zero regard with how easy it is to cheat it into play in eternal formats. They could have at least given it a delayed trigger or required it to tap to activate. The SCG results are just beginning to show how degenerate the interaction really is, and I believe it will only get worse. I may be wrong and the format will adapt but that doesn't change my opinion of it.
There is no need to put down my arguments or infer that I am a troll because I disagree with you.
You can have any opinion you would like. Is GB on turn 2 any worse then turn 2Ad Naus?
You think it's 2 powerful and don't like the card. I think there are just as many other very powerful cards and interactions in this format.
As for the trolling comment... When you direct a post at me saying my ideas on the power of a card that has been in print for what a few weeks are = unbanning the likes of black lotus then follow that up with putting words into my mouth that I would never dream as using as an argument, Yes to me that is someone trolling to get a reaction. Look down your nose at someone else.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Generally, I'd say everything is pretty healthy. The only card I would consider is Show and Tell.
Show and Tell enables 3 different decks (Sneak and Show, Reanimator, Hivemind). In the latter 2, it allows them to evade typical hate, which is overly favorable for these combo-ish decks.
In every case, it's effectively a game winning spell. When's the last time we had a single spell with the capacity to auto win the game not get banned or get unbanned. Every example (Natural Order, Time Spiral) is 4 CMC or higher. Sure that brings Teeg into the equation, but there's more too it than that: 4 CMC is the dividing line in Legacy for something to be called "expensive" (in terms of casting cost). So it makes sense that these auto win cards are expensive. Show and Tell is an auto win that is not expensive. It's powered above it's cost. Sure that's happened in the past, but for an auto win card to be powered above it's cost, THAT is an issue.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mirrislegend
Generally, I'd say everything is pretty healthy. The only card I would consider is Show and Tell.
Show and Tell enables 3 different decks (Sneak and Show, Reanimator, Hivemind). In the latter 2, it allows them to evade typical hate, which is overly favorable for these combo-ish decks.
In every case, it's effectively a game winning spell. When's the last time we had a single spell with the capacity to auto win the game not get banned or get unbanned. Every example (Natural Order, Time Spiral) is 4 CMC or higher. Sure that brings Teeg into the equation, but there's more too it than that: 4 CMC is the dividing line in Legacy for something to be called "expensive" (in terms of casting cost). So it makes sense that these auto win cards are expensive. Show and Tell is an auto win that is not expensive. It's powered above it's cost. Sure that's happened in the past, but for an auto win card to be powered above it's cost, THAT is an issue.
Doomsday costs 3
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ignithas_
Maverick isn't dominating anything, it's only strong against U decks in this format. And the people that like Brainstorm can't adapt to that, so Maverick will win against them.
I strongly disagree that maverick is only good against blue decks, if that were the case maverick wouldn't be tier 1. Maverick has decent matchups across the entire field of legacy, which is why it's tier 1. It can literally compete with any deck it wants to via the adaptation of its sideboard and maindeck including storm combo.
Also, the chances of killing anyone on turn 1 in legacy is quite low in decks not named the Spanish Inquisition. But even SI isn't the most consistent combo deck in terms of how often if successfully comboes off and it is a very volatile deck that if you misplay once with can automatically lose you a game. And don't say belcher kills on turn 1, it rarely does in fact in my experience as making 12 goblins on turn 1 is a strong play it is beatable and there's the fact that 12 goblins don't win until turn 3.
Legacy is fine right now. I have no problem with the metagame at hand currently.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Show and Tell is an issue because it costs :2::u:. The :2: plays a huge role in making it easy to cast. I don't think we would have an issue with it if it cost :1::u::u:. Doomsday, while more powerful, has a much more restrictive mana cost that limits its ease of use. Would Jace be as powerful if it cost :1::u::u::u:?
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
millerd33
You can have any opinion you would like. Is GB on turn 2 any worse then turn 2Ad Naus?
You think it's 2 powerful and don't like the card. I think there are just as many other very powerful cards and interactions in this format.
As for the trolling comment... When you direct a post at me saying my ideas on the power of a card that has been in print for what a few weeks are = unbanning the likes of black lotus then follow that up with putting words into my mouth that I would never dream as using as an argument, Yes to me that is someone trolling to get a reaction. Look down your nose at someone else.
Like I said: Words are hard. I was using Black Lotus as a baseline for something that you and I both completely feel is broken (at least I hope you do,) and then followed with: Now that we agree that Black Lotus is too powerful, I also feel that Show and Tell (now that griselbrand has been printed) is ALSO too powerful. And you feel otherwise. I wasn't trolling you. The world isn't against you, and I'm not your psychiatrist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TooCloseToTheSun
First off, the probability of turn 1 anything is like 3%, that is nothing. Stop making it seem like this deck goes off turn 1 all the time, because it doesn't. Saying things like that make me think you haven't ever played against or with the deck. Secondly, when you can Sword or Path a Tendrils of Agony let me know.
"like 3%" is hardly an argument. I have played against the deck plenty enough. You can't swords an Emrakul, but you can swords a Griselbrand provided the 14 cards they draw from it don't contain a counterspell, or worse, a misdirection for the creature you SNT
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
Doomsday, while more powerful, has a much more restrictive mana cost that limits its ease of use.
That is just bullshit. Last I checked Dark Rit still made :b::b::b:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Star|Scream
"like 3%" is hardly an argument. I have played against the deck plenty enough. You can't swords an Emrakul, but you can swords a Griselbrand provided the 14 cards they draw from it don't contain a counterspell, or worse, a misdirection for the creature you SNT
How is that hardly an argument. 97% of the time sneak and show will not cast show and tell for a creature on turn one. This entire game is based on probabilities.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TooCloseToTheSun
That is just bullshit. Last I checked Dark Rit still made :b::b::b:
You're really dense. Of course you can cast it via Dark Ritual. It's restrictive in deck selection too - show me a deck with Dark Ritual, Doomsday, and Force of Will that gels as well as Show & Tell decks do.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
You're really dense. Of course you can cast it via Dark Ritual. It's restrictive in deck selection too - show me a deck with Dark Ritual, Doomsday, and Force of Will that gels as well as Show & Tell decks do.
Why would you play force when you can play silence and discard, are you dumb. They both work better in that deck. Do you want to see a list?
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TooCloseToTheSun
That is just bullshit. Last I checked Dark Rit still made :b::b::b:
How is that hardly an argument. 97% of the time sneak and show will not cast show and tell for a creature on turn one. This entire game is based on probabilities.
Because "like 3%" isn't an actual figure. I don't have the figure, but if you're going to spout off numbers to prove an argument, don't you think you should at least know it?
Also, what is an acceptable first turn win percentage for legacy? Like 20%? Like 35%? Why do you get to choose that Like 3% is okay?
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Star|Scream
Like I said: Words are hard. I was using Black Lotus as a baseline for something that you and I both completely feel is broken (at least I hope you do,) and then followed with: Now that we agree that Black Lotus is too powerful, I also feel that Show and Tell (now that griselbrand has been printed) is ALSO too powerful. And you feel otherwise. I wasn't trolling you. The world isn't against you, and I'm not your psychiatrist.
How about instead of the flaming because I don't agree you and actually tell me how a turn 1 GB is more oppressive then a turn 1 ad naus?
This holier than thou attitude has no place in a discussion. You sir can go pound sand.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Star|Scream
Because "like 3%" isn't an actual figure. I don't have the figure, but if you're going to spout off numbers to prove an argument, don't you think you should at least know it?
Also, what is an acceptable first turn win percentage for legacy? Like 20%? Like 35%? Why do you get to choose that Like 3% is okay?
Probability of getting Griselbrand into play turn 1 (Assuming you run 4, and 4 Petals, and 6 Sol lands, and 4 Show and Tell) = %3.4522023212028309465332723808
If you wanted the exact number you could do the math instead of just spouting bullshit. Also %3 doesn't factor in protection, if you want it protected the percentage gets way lower.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TooCloseToTheSun
Probability of getting Griselbrand into play turn 1 (Assuming you run 4, and 4 Petals, and 6 Sol lands, and 4 Show and Tell) = %3.4522023212028309465332723808
If you wanted the exact number you could do the math instead of just spouting bullshit. Also %3 doesn't factor in protection, if you want it protected the percentage gets way lower.
What are the chances that you have (black source) Dark Ritual, Doomsday, and the ability to win the game the next turn with the remaining cards in your hand?
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Ill say it again for those who still complain about Show and Tell:
Learn to adapt. Learn to play magic.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
What are the chances that you have (black source) Dark Ritual, Doomsday, and the ability to win the game the next turn with the remaining cards in your hand?
When you figure this out let me know. (Hint: This is waaaaaaaaay harder to figure out because Doomsday is a lot less linear)
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TooCloseToTheSun
When you figure this out let me know. (Hint: This is waaaaaaaaay harder to figure out because Doomsday is a lot less linear)
That's the point. DD is a deck that takes months to learn and years to perfect.
Sneak Show can be played hungover, and half asleep.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
That's the point. DD is a deck that takes months to learn and years to perfect.
Sneak Show can be played hungover, and half asleep.
I mean, that is a point. It doesn't really say if a card should be banned or not, unless that is the metric you use to determine if decks should be banned.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TooCloseToTheSun
I mean, that is a point. It doesn't really say if a card should be banned or not, unless that is the metric you use to determine if decks should be banned.
I have not been advocating for Show and Tell to be banned. I am merely identifying possible points that strike against Show and Tell as a continued element in future metagames. It does not lend itself to fair strategies.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TooCloseToTheSun
When you figure this out let me know. (Hint: This is waaaaaaaaay harder to figure out because Doomsday is a lot less linear)
You need a LED, LED or petal, Probe, Dark Ritual, Doomsday, and a land or a petal.
What does Show and Tell need again?
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
joemauer
You need a LED, LED or petal, Probe, Dark Ritual, Doomsday, and a land or a petal.
What does Show and Tell need again?
Show and Tell (4 of), Griselbrand (4 of), Lotus Petal (4 of), Sol-land (6 of)
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
I have not been advocating for Show and Tell to be banned. I am merely identifying possible points that strike against Show and Tell as a continued element in future metagames. It does not lend itself to fair strategies.
So are you saying that "It is easy to play," is a strike against Show and Tell as a continued element in future metagames.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
joemauer
You need a LED, LED or petal, Probe, Dark Ritual, Doomsday, and a land or a petal.
What does Show and Tell need again?
That's what you need for a turn one win. He said turn 2. Also, at best Sneak and Show can't win the game before turn 3.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TooCloseToTheSun
So are you saying that "It is easy to play," is a strike against Show and Tell as a continued element in future metagames.
That's what you need for a turn one win. He said turn 2. Also, at best Sneak and Show can't win the game before turn 3.
Doomsday being a difficult deck to pilot intrinsically will eliminate it from being a top tier deck. There is no way it will penetrate a threshold of rampancy in the Top 8. Show and Tell, being that much easier to pilot, can be widely adopted and become too overbearing. What if Grislebrand is just the tip of the iceberg? What other fatties will be coming out in the coming months? This is the dangerous territory that Survival rode for several years until it became widely adopted with Vengevine.
The deck can win on Turn 2. Not very reliably, but it does involve a Show & Tell into Sneak Attack into Lotus Petal to sneak Emrakul. That's an additional Show & Tell, Lotus Petal, Sneak Attack, Emrakul out of 14 potential new cards. Not reliable, but possible.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
Doomsday being a difficult deck to pilot intrinsically will eliminate it from being a top tier deck. There is no way it will penetrate a threshold of rampancy in the Top 8. Show and Tell, being that much easier to pilot, can be widely adopted and become too overbearing. What if Grislebrand is just the tip of the iceberg? What other fatties will be coming out in the coming months? This is the dangerous territory that Survival rode for several years until it became widely adopted with Vengevine.
The deck can win on Turn 2. Not very reliably, but it does involve a Show & Tell into Sneak Attack into Lotus Petal to sneak Emrakul. That's an additional Show & Tell, Lotus Petal, Sneak Attack, Emrakul out of 14 potential new cards. Not reliable, but possible.
While we are just making shit up, what if they print something that makes doomsday better? Where does this wild speculation stop? Doomsday isn't that hard to play, it might be hard to master but most people with minimal reading on the subject can play and win with doomsday.
But yeah I guess that SnT can win turn 2.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
Doomsday being a difficult deck to pilot intrinsically will eliminate it from being a top tier deck. There is no way it will penetrate a threshold of rampancy in the Top 8. Show and Tell, being that much easier to pilot, can be widely adopted and become too overbearing. What if Grislebrand is just the tip of the iceberg? What other fatties will be coming out in the coming months? This is the dangerous territory that Survival rode for several years until it became widely adopted with Vengevine.
The deck can win on Turn 2. Not very reliably, but it does involve a Show & Tell into Sneak Attack into Lotus Petal to sneak Emrakul. That's an additional Show & Tell, Lotus Petal, Sneak Attack, Emrakul out of 14 potential new cards. Not reliable, but possible.
You could win on turn one with Ancient Tomb, Lotus Petalx3 Show and Tell -> Sneak Attack -> Griselbrand draw into Emrakul, The Aeons Torn (or just be on the draw) :laugh:
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Norm
Also true, but that's a pretty ridiculous draw. It can happen.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Norm
Shit you don't even need the Show and Tell if you can draw into the 4th lotus petal. My point is though that isn't what you want to be doing with this deck. If you want to win turn 1 play Belcher or SI.
Bonus Turn 1 Win:
Leyline of the Void, 2 Dark Rits, Helm of Obdience.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TooCloseToTheSun
Shit you don't even need the Show and Tell if you can draw into the 4th lotus petal. My point is though that isn't what you want to be doing with this deck. If you want to win turn 1 play Belcher or SI.
Bonus Turn 1 Win:
Leyline of the Void, 2 Dark Rits, Helm of Obdience.
All this talk of turn one kills reminds of why Force of Will is such a strong card.
Good thing Show and Tell decks play that card. :laugh:
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TooCloseToTheSun
When you figure this out let me know. (Hint: This is waaaaaaaaay harder to figure out because Doomsday is a lot less linear)
With the old german list of doomsday winning with a pass the turn pile on turn 2 involved having 1U open after your draw step and it also involved having access to an LED after you resolved doomsday in hand, the one of IGG or tendrils/burning wish, a brainstorm, or a sensei's top. Let's just pretend we have a brainstorm in hand turn 1. The pile was follows:
In hand/play 2 lands that make 1U, 1 useless card, and a brainstorm/SDT/LED. It went like this:
Top
SDT (whichever one wasn't in hand)
LED
LED
IGG
Tendrils of Agony
Bottom
Draw SDT for turn, cast SDT and brainstorm in any order. Put back IGG on top and the useless card below it. LED x2 and the top if you haven't played it, 4 storm. Crack for black and blue, tap to draw IGG, IGG floating UB 5 storm. 8 storm after LED's and brainstorm putting back tendrils on top. SDT, 9 storm. Tap to draw, tendrils for 20.
There are quite a lot of pass the turn piles though all depending on cards in hand. Most require IGG to be in hand or in the pile though, making most outdated as IGG isn't run in the current lists of doomsday that are UBrw and are really only useful in pass the turn piles or as a way of ramping up storm count or a way to fight discard if it comes to that but this is unlikely as discard isn't really played in legacy that much currently outside of esperblade and the last thing you want to do against them is cast IGG typically.
Oh I have this magical christmas land turn 1 win scenario:
Land, dark rit x2, helm of awakening, sensei's top x2, recycle them for over 9,000 storm then cast LED, crack it for red, spin top, burning wish, grapeshot them for 1983928329 damage.
My point is, turn 1 wins in legacy are very farfetched scenarios that rarely ever happen. In all the times I've played storm combo I can count the number of turn 1 wins on two hands as they don't happen that often.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Doomsday is where Show and Tell was a few years ago - Not quite there, but with the potential to get there. Doomsday's missing a link somewhere, though, and has the drawback of halving your life total, meaning there are times when casting a Doomsday and not winning that turn will result in your demise. Show and Tell, however, is significantly easier to set up.
I'm not going to lie, though. We could be having this conversation about Doomsday in a year or two. I could be advocating for it's banning. I don't think it'll happen due to the prohibitive mana cost and the moderate fragility of it, but it could.
I mean, there's a ton of strange shit I've seen with Doomsday. Ranging from stacking quad Temporal Masteries on top of a Laboratory Maniac to the old LED Second Sunrise combos to Shelldock Isle BS, and in theory something could get printed that makes a Doomsday Pile so incredible it's just hard to stop. It's just not there yet.
Let's be real, though. Any deck that's essentially a 1-spell combo has the potential to break Legacy. Show and Tell. Doomsday. Survival of the Fittest. Hell, remember when Gamekeeper was a deck? Everything in the world stopped it. Countermagic, Guy removal, Yard hate, etc. But it won for awhile, and got played, because all you had to do was focus on one card hitting play - Gamekeeper. Imagine it now with Cavern of Souls. That's a 1-card uncounterable combo. The only reason people don't play it now is because there's better ways to cheat something into play and win. Like, you know. Show and Tell. Which is easier to cast and doesn't die to graveyard hate.
The thing is, they don't ban these cards until it they actually -do- start breaking Legacy. Doomsday and its cousins aren't changing the format yet. Show and Tell, however, is right on that line NOW. I argue that it's crossed it by a few steps, and it's worth pointing out that most people who disagree with its banning are willing to admit it's very close to the line and/or on their watch list.
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Tacosnape, what's interesting to note about Show and Tell is that it is still *technically* a two card combo -- you need to have one of the game-ending creatures in your hand at the time you cast it. Which isn't that tough to do, but still a requirement. Doomsday only requires that 5 cards that end the game are still in your library, pushing it a bit closer to being a one card combo. However, as you said it's still missing a piece or two to really push it over the top. Show and Tell is already there.
Pretty much any deck that isn't running a high density of blue and/or black is going to get run over by Show and Tell decks the majority of the time. But this was essentially true also of ANT while Mystical Tutor was legal. There will always be a 'best' combo deck in the format, and unless they nuke every combo piece from orbit, another one will step into its place to beat the 'fair' decks back into submission. As long as the tempo archetype retains its positive matchup against combo, I don't really see a huge problem yet -- we still have a healthy rock-paper-scissors dynamic going on.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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As long as the tempo archetype retains its positive matchup against combo, I don't really see a huge problem yet -- we still have a healthy rock-paper-scissors dynamic going on.
People forgot about 2006.
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Originally Posted by
wcm8
I don't really see a huge problem yet -- we still have a healthy rock-paper-scissors dynamic going on.
I'd agree. Sneak & Show is currently the bogeyman of the format, but I think Maverick, RUG, UW and many established archetypes can be tuned to combat it without sacrificing game against the other decks in the meta. This summer feels like a great time to be teching-out/next-levelling in Legacy as the major ~8 archetypes seem very established.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Tacosnape
The thing is, they don't ban these cards until it they actually -do- start breaking Legacy. Doomsday and its cousins aren't changing the format yet. Show and Tell, however, is right on that line NOW. I argue that it's crossed it by a few steps, and it's worth pointing out that most people who disagree with its banning are willing to admit it's very close to the line and/or on their watch list.
It is not near my line. I have not had any problems playing against Sneak and Show or any of the other Show and Tell decks.
