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From what I understand:
Carpet of Flowers comes in vs blue decks (obv) at the expense of Llanowar Elves
Against non-blue decks, Natural Order comes in, since Progenitus is hard to deal with.
I'm still unsure about Dismember, maybe this is an out to Grim Lavamancer? I personally like Mortarpod to deal with Dark Confidant, Grim Lavamancer, Canonist (tho I prefer KGrip since it also kills E-plague).
Ok, thank you.
I'm still unsure about the consistency of the mana base. 12 Forest 4 Gaea's Cradle... doesn't it seem too greedy? You always have to have at least 1 forest in your opening hand
Maybe 1 more Forest and only 3 Cradles?
Without running fetchlands, 12 Forest is fine. I've played lists that ran as few as 10 before and that did a fine job. Fetchlands run a risk of being Stifled, so you generally increase the count; but 12 basic lands is the minimum.
Mulling to get at least 1 Forest has always been this deck's "problem", so that is nothing new.
4 Cradles. Always 4 Cradles if you can afford them. A cradle is the best card you can draw, and sometimes you even need two of them if they have wasteland. I've never been unhappy drawing multiple cradles, because that meant I already had a cradle.
Alright I played a few matches with Olivier's list on MWS yesterday and only mulliganed once or twice. Turns out the Forest count should be fine. Definitely upping Cradles from 3 to 4 now.
2. It's also very good against Gaddock Teeg when you want to resolve a Natural Order post sideboard. It's a good way to get an edge over SFM that has just fetched a batterskull.Quote:
2. For what creatures do you need Dismember except Ethersworn Canonist? Is it that good?
3. How do you use Carpet of Flowers? Where is it useful, how & in which matchups do you sideboard it in?
Thanks :)
3. Carpet are going in against UR delver and RUG/*****. Those MU are mainly based on resources and our ability or disability to overextend.
As you know, the main way to overextend with elfball is to get mana from your elves, and a good opponent will take them down as fast as he can in order for you not to extend. With carpet you are opposing a resource he can't deal with and that allows you to establish your game plan.
I've been playing Olivier Pamart's list for a week now, but I don't have that incredible good feeling with it, unlike with the full combo version. Maybe I'm doing all the wrong things, but if it's so, then I don't know what I'm doing wrong. What is the right angle for that deck? Can anyone explain it to me? It could be that it's because of my fellow players. They all know how to play against Elves. Typically a game will go like this:
Me: forest, Llanowar (countered)
They: Land, Thoughtseize
Me: forest, elf (or symbiote)
They: destroy elf or symbiote
Me: play Fauna
And then what? Do I pitch the remaining elf to search for the missing combopiece or do I just go and search VV? I really don't know. With the combo version I don't have any problems at all G1, but G2 is horrible and that is why I'm trying Olivier's List. Anyone that can help me concerning this problem?
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...17522472_n.jpg
Quoting Vandalize from the Dredge thread:
"I guess that card will mess the entire format, and will be a good candidate for a Ban Hammer, because it hits every deck in the format: Dredge, Reanimator, GSZ.dec (GW/x Maverick, Nic Fit, Bant Aggro), Natural Order.dec (Bant, RUG and Elves), ANT/TES (shutting off Past in Flames), Snapcaster.dec, Lands.dec."
This isn't gonna affect Elves as much as Dredge, but it's still rough tho. Fauna build will probably get more popular if Grafdigger's Cage finds a way into alot of SBs.
It will find a way in a lot of SB for sure, and it hits quite a lot of cards in my elves list (similar to Pamart's list): mainboard 4xGSZ and 4xVengevine, and also postboard 4xNatural Order. It affects a lot!
By the way, last saturday I played a 120 players tournament, and was really happy with my performance: 5-1 until last round. And my last round was against MUD and chalice for 1 the first turn in those 2 matches, so missed top8 and 5-2.
I have to admit that 4xVengevine maindeck was a good call winning some matches just for that, and the Natural Order postboard plan was also good.
Win: Merfolks, GWzenith, Agroloam, RUGB agrocontrol and rug tempo
Lost: Reanimator (almost imposible but he was at 1 life before killed me twice) and MUD with perfect hands in both matches.
Pierre Sommen (winner GP Amsterdam) has played my decklist in 116players event. He lost the last round for the top 8 and finished at 5-2.
yeah but you can always search Viridian Shaman with Fauna. I'm not sure this card is played much, much less in many slot.Quote:
It will find a way in a lot of SB for sure, and it hits quite a lot of cards in my elves list (similar to Pamart's list): mainboard 4xGSZ and 4xVengevine, and also postboard 4xNatural Order. It affects a lot!
I almost positive that Cage won't interfer with the Vengevine engine, since you don't cast it.
But the cage don't lets cards enter the battlefield from graveyardsQuote:
Originally Posted by Godmode
Oh yeah, you're correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by lord182
"Creature cards can't enter the battlefield from graveyards or libraries"
i'd like to see your list with NO-Proggy in side.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
For the moment i post my decklist (Very solid pre board)
For advices:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
8 [LRW] Forest (2)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [US] Gaea's Cradle
// Creatures
1 [RAV] Nullmage Shepherd
3 [M10] Elvish Visionary
4 [SC] Wirewood Symbiote
1 [EVE] Regal Force
2 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (is 2 too much or just 1 works??)
4 [MOR] Heritage Druid
4 [M11] Elvish Archdruid
4 [U] Llanowar Elves
4 [EVE] Nettle Sentinel
4 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [ON] Birchlore Rangers
// Spells
4 [CHK] Glimpse of Nature
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [FUT] Summoner's Pact
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of Lifeforce (i'm not sure if this is rentable nowadays. When i included in the list CB was everywhere)
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [LE] Caller of the Claw
SB: 1 [10E] Viridian Shaman
Thx very very much.
Wooded Foothills should better be Forest because of Stifle (Canadian Thresh/Team America).
You don't need 4 Birchlore Rangers in Mono G with Summoner's Pacts. I would rather play 4 Visionaries and 4 S.Pact.
Why 2 Emrakul? the 2nd Emrakul is a dead card. You're better off playing Chord of Calling, Crop Rotation, Gaea's Cradle or an useful Elf like Fauna Shaman/Viridian Shaman/Ezuri/Priest of Titania in its place.
Leyline of Lifeforce isn't very useful except against Counterbalance. But even then it's better to play Krosan Grip or something like that or you go with Vengevines.
Indeed?? What is your experience on her? I considered a bit slow :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexeezay
An un-dealt with priest on turn 2 results in a guaranteed turn 3 win. I see nothing wrong with her. She's awful mid-combo but pre-combo she's an all-star.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
I don't play with NO-Proggy; it is much weaker against decks that already bring in Perish. I can see it being good against Maverick and Zoo, so there might be some merit to that plan. However, their only real way to interact with the combo is Canonist and Punishing Fires. The former can be dealt with Krosan Grip (which should come in regardless to deal with Jitte) and the latter can be ignored if you wait for an optimal time to combo off.
Elves generally has a good matchup vs Maverick, so I don't see why the No/Prog is even necessary.
So far 2-0 in the MtgSalvation cockatrice tourney with Pamart's list :)
Was testing tonight against your winning 75. Only game I lost with elves was when he had fires and swords early and I didnt have glimpse. Even then I could have just dropped lands and passed the turn until I had more in hand to go off with and he would have had more of a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
Elves seems really good right now
Worth keeping in mind for anyone still rocking Living Wish for those drawn out affairs involving sweepers and recurring removal. 1GG for a 10/10 in the lategame could be worth the spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by spoiler
You play with 4 Elvish Archdruid and considered Priest of Titania a bit slow? I like her more than archdruid because she can be search with GSZ on turn 2 (i don't have the cradles yet). Don't play the second Emrakul instead play Fierce Empath. If you have the cradles play with the Fauna/Vengivine plan and add 1 Crop Rotation, can seems a bit slow but is more consistent.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
I really like the deck, but why not run Coffin Purge in the board instead of Purify the Grave? Clears up the Savannah spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by resum
It's starting to look as though the metagame is becoming favorable to Elves. What have been people's experiences with the NO/Pro SB plan vs Vengevine? Both get hit pretty hard by Grafdigger's Cage. What alternatives are there to both that don't get hit? Do we even care about the Cage?
Hi there!
Been a long time since i've been playing elves (3+ years), and i'm trying to get into it again. The main concensus here seems to be that elves should focus mainly on combo, with some sort of aggro sub-plan. I would like to try that the other way around, due to personal preferences. So, i'd like an aggro main plain, with the possible "oops-i-win-button" in Natural Order.
How feasible would a deck such as that be? Browsing the last 10+ pages of this thread, i see very little love for NO. I know i should playtest a lot before posting such questions here, but the amount of possibilities seem vast!
So I wondered which cards are worth playing, and which aren't. GSZ, NO, archdruid, imperious perfect etc are good cards. But in the aggro style birchlore rangers and heritage druid seem weak.
Ideas?
You may want to checkout this thread instead: Elven Advantage.
That list focuses on the aggro element and skips out on Heritage Druid and Birchlore Rangers.
Elves Combo focuses on the mana engine of Heritage Druid with Nettle Sentinel.
I used to play with the BA/VV board and I liked it a lot. I found myself siding in at least the VVs in all interactive MUs. Because of this, I moved them into the maindeck with a list a lot like oliver's (I would play intuitivine if I had intuitions), as the only times when VV is bad are against the combo decks that are faster than you (storm, dredge, reanimator) and when they get a multiple tarmogoyf draw, but if you have some disruption (ooze, cabal therapy), you can slow the combo decks down enough to be faster than them.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
The NO/prog plan I haven't actually played with, but it just feels worse than some kind of VV plan, and should be ran mostly as a backup to VVs if you know they're going to bring in GY hate, of if they're like zoo or maverick with a ton of removal and access to lots of goyf/kotrs.
Graffdigger's cages sounds super annoying, but not too big of a problem. We are a GSZ based deck, but we should be able to either remove it with claim/grip/shaman or just glimpse them out if you rin some sorta instawin in side or main (I have an emrakul in the side for the combo MUs).
When you afraid of Grafdigger's Cage you should run more Summoner's Pact to search Viridian Shaman;)
I have win two Daily with my deck list, very good with your metagame :
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital.../tourn/3283977
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital.../tourn/3314197
@blind: I have several questions for you.
First I just want to say I have been testing your decklist and think it is very solid, the maindeck that is.
I know you have answered this, but is dismember really that good? I see it saving the day against Lavamancer but that's against burn type decks and we don't want to lower our own life?
Also, is NO/prog package that good? As Ruckus pointed out earlier it seems win more.
What is your answer to control decks with snapcasters? How do you beat those decks when they side in wraths and have 8-12 plow effects?
Finally, do you feel you have enough graveyard hate in your SB?
Sorry if these questions are too noobish, I don't play elves too much.
Most defintely ! You should never siding in dismember against burn where life points DO matter. I have already explained why the card is strong. It offers a solution to : creature + equipment that is often the only game plan for many decks to beat us.Quote:
I know you have answered this, but is dismember really that good? I see it saving the day against Lavamancer but that's against burn type decks and we don't want to lower our own life?
It also deals with many problematic creatures.
YES ! Progenitus offers many obvious win against many decks. Against decks full of snapcaster with 7 swords to plowshares effect post board, the Vengevine plan does suck. You can also get "surgicaled" and in order to kill, 1/1 are kind of useless in these MU (Batterskull). In a single sentence, Progenitus is a second kill really strong that punish any opponent without wrath effect. Strangely, NO + Pro is a strong plan against deck that enter wrath. Indeed, where the plan to go glimpse, you got to over extend and get elves on the board to have a chance to combo off, so we do got to expose ourselves to wrath (please keep in mind I am talking about my particular list, a full combo list can combo off without any elve on board), NO + PRO only requires a single creature.Quote:
Also, is NO/prog package that good? What is your answer to control decks with snapcasters? How do you beat those decks when they side in wraths and have 8-12 plow effects?
Just test the list guys ;)
-4 Glimpse -1 Regal -1 Joraga -1 Quirion -1 FaunaQuote:
so what's your exact sideboarding plan with your list, against UW Blade/Control?
+4 NO +1 Progenitus, - 4 Vengevine -1 Fauna Shaman
+4 NO +1 Pro +3 Dismember
ah okay thanks
Is there a posting or a separate thread to give pointers on how to help maintain game state? Sometimes I forget as have I used Symbiote or not and other triggers.
Any assistance would be appreciated.
Try putting counters or loose change on your guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sided3angle
I turn them upside down when I've used them. Its a little harder with quirion since I tap him too, but so long as the orientation is different it is easy to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sided3angle
Greetings to everyone,
I have been following this thread for some time for I am assembling a Elves Combo deck for myself.
I don't have much experience with all the interactions of the deck, nor with the decision on evaluating my initial hands, beacuse as far as here, I have only played casually against friends who have not prepared efficient sideboards agains me and whose playing level is a little below mine. So, these games I could easily win.
However, since I am planning on bringing this deck to some sanctioned tournaments, I wanted to present you my current list in order to hear your advices.
Here it is:
LANDS (16):
2x Gaea's Cradle (I look forward to get the other 2)
1x Temple Garden (It will be a Savannah)
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills (I plan to use a split of 2/2/2 of each G-Fetchland, when I get them)
1x Misty Rainforest
6x Forest
CREATURES (32):
3x Llanowar Elves
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Birchlore Rangers
3x Elvish Visionary
4x Wirewood Symbiote
3x Quirion Ranger
3x Wirewood Hivemaster
1x Fauna Shaman
1x Viridian Shaman
1x Regal Force
1x Mirror Entity
OTHER SPELLS (12):
4x Glimpse of Nature
3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Chord of Calling
1x Crop Rotation
1x Concordant Crossroads
This is what I came upon untill now, but I intend to incorporate soon a Fauna Shaman-Vengevine package (I am now 1 Fauna and 2 Vengevines short for the playset) so, advice can be oriented to this future plan to.
Also, I am not very familiarized with my actual metagame, but according to what I read from recent tournaments, there was many UWx Stoneblades, RUG, UR Delver, Punishing Maverick, TES/ANT, Dredge and Reanimate around here.
So, I tried to put together a rather "generic" sideboard for the deck:
SIDEBOARD (15):
Removal:
1x Caller of the Claw
1x Burrenton Forge-Tender
Combo:
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x Children of Korlis
GY:
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Loaming Shaman
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Bojuka Bog
Enchantmenst/Artifacts:
1x Harmonic Sliver
Creatures:
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
Other Threats:
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Phyrexian Revoker
Do you think this list could be competitive? What would you suggest me to change, so that I can improve it?
I am eager to receive your elder and wiser elvish advices :smile:
Sincerely,
If your meta is actually how you described, I strongly recommend you to run Pamart's list. SB the way he built it is actually unnecessary, you can go with chokes + grips + combo hate and you should be fine. Believe me, it's insane. I did not have an opportunity to play it IRL, but I've already won one online tournament with it and I guess I already made top 8 in the MTGSalvation cockatrice tournament, currently 3-0 with a record of 2-1 against Bloodbraid RUG 2-1, Maverick 2-0, Junk 2-0.
Why ...?Quote:
SB the way he built it is actually unnecessary
you're a massive dog to zoo and punishing fire decks without no-prog