The answer to your question was on the previous page. Skimming is not encouraged if you're asking for deck insight.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
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The answer to your question was on the previous page. Skimming is not encouraged if you're asking for deck insight.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
Doesn't Turbo Eldrazi already have a Treasure Cruise? I heard it's called Kozilek! :cool:
Yes, but Koz can't be cast T3. TC can against Hymn decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by maCHOOga
// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [LRW] Island (1)
// Creatures
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [FD] Trinket Mage
// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [KTK] Treasure Cruise
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [US] Show and Tell
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [AL] Force of Will
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [VI] Elephant Grass
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [NPH] Spellskite
SB: 1 [RTR] Pithing Needle
Version I'm playing at the moment.
What...no Memnarch?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
i'm glad i don't live in Connecticut, this is one of those decks that invokes that western saying, this town aint big enough for the both of us. how often do yall have to play each other in mirror matches. the whole state is only like is only about 2 hours across.
Memnarch was a specific issue with bug and food chain bowling me over. Now I throw boats at them and laugh at the matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
I regularly play the mirror. Prolly once a week at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by caw_86
Incorrect. You can do a whole hell of a lot with a Candelabra cast on turn two or three.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkenslight
As neato burrito as it is to draw three, I can't honestly believe I'd be happy having Cruise in the deck. "Draw three under condition" isn't anything new and it's not necessarily better than the filter, fetch, and dig the deck already uses.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
Playing Treasure Cruise means you'll have 4 additional heavy spells in your deck, meaning that you're now playing with 3-4 titans, 2-3 eldrazi, and 4 additional cc8 cards. You'll be mulliganing forever. Please don't say that it shines in late game, if we reach that point we've already won 95% of the times even without a sorcery Ancestral Recall, but against early tempo decks that aim to wreck your resources TC is going to stink a lot, and we are not particularly good at filling our own graveyard. Not to say that if a Hymn or a Thoughtseize hits one of our Eldrazi, we are forced to shuffle back all our grave, making almost impossible to ever cast TC in that game (late-game excluded).
And Wasteland is going to hit you harder than ever.
Well, I am unsure. No testing so far, but some mind - games. Rock Lee already tested and has been very successful, so it can't be totally wrong. I guess I will give it a try as a two - off, first. Propably cutting a needle and a top. Top is some kind of mvp for me against Bug... But always remember : there is no "right or wrong", since playstyles and meta can be very different! [emoji6] E.g. Rock Lee used to play a playset of Revokers what worked totally fine for him in a storm heavy meta. If your meta is almost free of storm, this card looses a lot of value (at least most of the time).Quote:
Originally Posted by Davek
Double post sorry
On paper TC looks like it is only DECENT vs discard decks and unplayable/unnecessary (in this deck) otherwise, I will reserve any further judgment until I actually TEST with it though. You should as well :-)
Hey, I was here first :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by caw_86
it shows, you've won the last three timesQuote:
Originally Posted by sauce
Well, i think i'm not going to test TC soon, since i foresee a great increase of blitz-aggro in the very short time. The U/R tempo deck that won SCG Legacy open last week is brutal to say the least and i think people will soon realize that pairing Delver and Monastery Swiftspear with Goblin Guide will make it faster than ever, with easy kills around turn 4. I've faced that deck once a couple of days ago and won 2-0, but both games were close (and now i run a couple of Moment's Peace md), so i think cruising is not the right way at the moment.
I'd be looking for more answers to wasteland/bloodmoon/magus at the moment.
Hmmm, let's see...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponders
Wasteland : Pithing Needle helps, or Crop Rotation. Always keep Crop in hand (or on top of the library,if SDT is in play) and a green mana open to sac the targeted land in response.
Blood Moon : Go for basics asap. Krosan Grip is beast against it, my personal first choice (2 SB). Otherwise use Repeal eot. Repeal for Magus as well. Against mono red painter, a Titan is usually game, Eldrazi's of course as well... But Titan can be hard cast, depending on your list (2 basic forests). Otherwise S&T. Against decks which play moon effects, Karn is very sweet as well [emoji6]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Postman
Yeah, I know the cards. This doesn't begin to solve the practical issue of actually casting them when you have a turn 2 chalice, turn 3 magus and a turn 4 bloodmoon all in play thanks to city of traitors.
Sounds like you need to win more die rolls, so you can jam a permanent on turn 1 before the chalice. Personally, I think chalice on 1 hurts this deck much more than blood moon. Heck with blood moon in play, Glacial Chasm and Eye of Ugin tap for mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponders
Remember Chalice is a triggered ability, so it's possible to jedi-mind trick people to forget their trigger. I've done it and I've had it done to me. :tongue:
Unfortunately, believe it or not, this is the entire strategy of Mono-Red Shit and, believe it or not, there is such a thing as "being boned". Do you know what Miracles does against a landed Null Rod, Liliana, and Sylvan Library? Gets shit on. Do you know what Elves does against Fetch, Ritual, Mana, LED, Tutor? It cries a little bit. Do you know what 12Post does against Blood Moon and Chalice? It does the best that it can and accepts the fact that sometimes you can't win against your arch-nemesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponders
There is no great secret to defeating Blood Moon or Wasteland. You do the best you can with what you have available. If you can fetch for a basic before they land Blood Moon. If you have Show and Tell. If you have Repeal. If you have a Map. If you really want to beat Blood Moon and Wasteland and Chalice, grind against them exclusively for a dozen or so matches and you'll better understand what you can do and what you should do.
Blood moon is beatable but it depends on what deck lands it and on what turn.
I generally beat is all the time from Painter, but it's much harder to beat from a deck that's also attacking your life total.
Map -> basics.
Fetch -> basics.
Ulamog it.
Draw island and repeal EOT.
S&T Titan, get basics.
S&T Ulamog/Emrakul off basic Island and attack.
Also, Vesuva can copy a basic under Blood moon and it becomes a basic.
I challenge the Boat naysayers to test my build. Since it is clear that they haven't. TC is never a brick. It becomes castable faster under duress and allows for a highly answer-oriented build:
// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
3 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [LRW] Island (1)
// Creatures
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [KTK] Treasure Cruise
2 [US] Show and Tell
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
3 [AL] Force of Will
3 [LRW] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [NPH] Spellskite
SB: 2 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 1 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
This is more likely a transitional build over a stable one, since I normally group up fow either main or sb. But the point is there are many iterations of this deck with Boat in it that are incredibly resilient.
This honestly looks meta specific to your area. Not because of the Treasure Cruise (I know it's strength: I took up UR Delver solely because of its addition, and it adds speed and is regularly cast by Turn 3 for :u: because of that decks aggression), but because Bog is in the side, Hydroblast is maxed out, and you're not running a basic Forest. My curiosity is why skimp out on the full Glimmerpost and Primeval Titan? I get that space is getting tight because Wizards is printing more eternal format friendly cards, and I'm curious if Top is worth cutting altogether and if it is forever. The split with Trinket Mage is an idea that I liked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
And the other more curious question I'm curious about is if you've reconsidered Dig through Time. I know the extra :u: makes a difference, but now that you are more familiar with the Delve mechanic, is there other Delve cards worth exploring. And honestly, the reason I'm asking and not reporting is because I've been on a Legacy Hiatus this since I've had irl things that came up shortly after I starting tinkering with UR delver.
I've been testing treasure cruise in Rock's needle-less build and in my very limited experience thus far the reaction is positive. Important to remember I think that 12-post is already very top deck strong. It may be more viable to swap tc out and replace them with 4 krosan grips, blue blasts, or even FOW, as these are immediately pertinent to the current tournament meta. I'd really like to see this deck become more prominent in he SCG events.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockingbird
Played little tournament today, 24 players, 5 rounds. Went 3:2, list:
25 Lands:
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Glacial Chasmn
1 Karakas
35 Spells:
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Repeal
3 Crop Rotation
2 Moment's Peace
2 Pithing Needle
3 Expedition Map
4 Show and Tell
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
15 Cards SB:
2 Karn Liberated
4 Swan Song
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thragtusk
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
3 Hydroblast
Round 1:
Burn, 0:2
He won dice roll, took a mulligan to 6 and burned me very quick, like Goblin Guide, Eidolon, Chain Lightning, PoP. Similar 2nd game, not able to find S&T + fatty :-/
Round 2:
UG Infect, 1:2
Fast game 1 win for him, fast game 2 win for me (Round 3 S&T gets countered, Round 4 resolves, Emmy wins), longer game 3 he wins again (Inkmoth Nexus plus pumps). Not a single Moment's Peace in all 3 games:frown:
Round 3:
UR Delver, 2:0
Quite quick matches, even 2 flipped Delvers didn't kill me quick enough, 3 Titan Trigger and I am at ~35 life again^^
Round 4:
UWr Miracles, 2:1
Game 1 I won the normal way, Titan, Emrakul, happy. Game 2 he has turn 3 Blood Moon, turn 4 Meddling Mage naming Repeal, turn 5 Blood Moon, turn 6 Jace, turn 7 Vendillion Clique...beat down. Game 3 I Krosan Grip two Blood Moon, hardcast Emrakul and win.
Round 5:
Storm (ANT), 2:1
Quick game 1 for my opponent. Game 2 he fizzels while Titan is on board and concedes (:laugh:). Game 3 I counter his second and his third Rite of Flames. His last card in hand is Burning Wish, no more counter, so it resolves. Telemin Performance?! Never heard of, read it, felt like 2 seconds cardiac arrest....but I knew (thanks to SDT) next card is Titan, and I have already one in play. So he gets the Titan, no cards left in hand. I call for Emmy, Emmy comes into play, smiles at the battlefield and opponent concedes at once:cool:
Moment's Peace almost never showed up today, Candelabra didn't do anything, not in a single game. I guess I will think about the candelabra for a long time now...Karn in SB feels really good against UWr Miracles, he'll stay in SB. I will try to improve Burn MU, but not sure how...
And of course I will give Rock Lee's list a chance as well, I like challenges^^
This is the most-blue list I've ever run with the deck. Probably the most extreme I would go towards treasure cruise.
I've been loving spellskite recently, and it might belong in the side, but I side it in constantly so we'll see.
// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [LRW] Island (1)
// Creatures
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 [NPH] Spellskite
// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [KTK] Treasure Cruise
4 [US] Show and Tell
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [MI] Mind Harness
Just took a quick glimpse @ this list (typing via smartphone) and fell in love with it at once! Looks really well, I will try it with one change : bog main, due to meta. Especially Spellskite could be nuts [emoji106]Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [LRW] Island (1)
// Creatures
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [NPH] Spellskite
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [FD] Trinket Mage
// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [KTK] Treasure Cruise
2 [US] Show and Tell
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [GP] Repeal
2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [MOR] Negate
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
This list is my latest and just plain solid.
I dig it. Can't wait to try it out
I can not see Treasure Cruise in here. Why bother with blue mana and the graveyard if you already have Kozilek available which cost only 2 generic mana more for an even bigger impact?
Oh Lemnear. The eternal troll of this thread. Zero testing, all speculation.
Hey Rock, can you describe a bit how the new build plays? I haven't had time to put it together but I'll probably sleeve it up for Tuesday when I get to play next. Looking at the list I almost feel like it plays off as a little more combo-y, but again, I admit I haven't been able to run it yet.
Definitely more combo-y. Given that the deck played even more passively than Miracles if it chose to, this isn't much of a statement though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
I think a telling statement is that the deck plays like old GAT. You burn your resources down, then restock your hand, burn them down, restock. Since you have higher mana values and more explosive draws, this means you beat out the other cruise decks on parity, and you destroy fair decks beyond words.
Really the only deck in the format that can give this deck a run for its money is u/r SCG list, which uses a similar concept but with no long term plan. Thus the plan against that deck is to equal them on early speed, which is very possible.
I don't know about the rest of the meta as I haven't test it yet but the matchup against the UR Delver deck with Treasure Cruise is, to my own surprise, very winnable. I am using a list very similar to yours: -1 Top, -1 Map, -1 Fetch, -1 Trinket, +1 S&T, +1 Crop, +1 Forest, +1 Repeal. I am impressed with this new version!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
I've been playing the UR deck and I've even started running into Post decks, and Glimmerpost just outright wins. The no long term plan really hurts UR in my opinion (at least in my hands) because people are prepared for early rushes at this time and can grind this deck out as a result.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
I've started testing post Khans 12-Post, except I've figured I'd put my money where my mouth is and have been testing Dig Through Time. So far I like it because it's Instant speed and more flexible in terms of what I get out of it, although a third card is a valid counter point. At the moment I just prefer it because like Rock said, the deck is playing more combo-y at the moment, which for me that means I value assembly over raw advantage. We'll see where it goes.
Right now, I'm running Rock's list except -4 Treasure Cruise +4 Dig through Time and took the Negate and Red Elemental Blast out of the sideboard for Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre and Swan Song.
It was a serious question. 7U vs 10 mana. 3 cards vs. 4 cards and Giant Body with Annhilatior. I guess the topic deserves a bit more discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
But I see you prefer repeating the previous pattern of discussion we had: Dodge the question and call me a troll.
You mean the trend of you not reading the thread, and only jumping in and responding to information already conveyed all without doing testing of your own. Notice you're the only person here thinking the deck casts Boat at 8 mana regularly. Even on this same page the usage of Boat is mentioned and gone over. I mention in the first page that I don't coddle laziness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
There are two new blue candidates for legacy decks : Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time. Both use Delve, and both have ups and downs. But in a deck like Turbo Eldrazi, one of them has to be played. Really hardcasting one of them is not the way to play the deck. Can you manage to hardcast Kozilek by let's say turn 3 or 4? Do you think Kozilek should be a 3 or 4 off in this deck? No? Well, so there can't be a discussion about playing one of the new toys or not. Right now I'm tending towards Treasure Cruise, but Dig Through Time isn't completly out of my testing...
Sure this deck can cardcast Kozilek by turn 4! I bet it's even way easier than casting Treasure Cruise for U during turn 3 like peope claim here being able to. Shitty strawman dood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Postman
Edit:
I'm well aware that TC helps most in matchups with heavy disruption, countering your development and hitting your mana with Wasteland so you can use these destroyed resources to refill your hand at times, but if we take extreme examples of 12-post being forced into topdeck mode with lacking mana on the board out of the picture, it makes a mediocre draw if you aim for the offense and the question I asked was in regards to the expected metagame we'll see now that people Ppnder to skip on the Tempo-plan of Wasteland/Stifle for the sake of supporting TC themselves. Is it even required to focus so hard on the manadenial and respond with Needle/TC with foresight?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Sure it's possible, have done it once... After keeping a really bad hand. How often does this happen? Is it your normal way to play this deck? IMO you simply can't compare Kozilek to Treasure Cruise, sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear