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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
@Star|Scream:
The most important trick is just to vial him in to rfg one of your blocker before damage or before a sweeper/removal. Vial in to rfg sculler on the stack might be useful only if you know the opponent doesn't have anything to disenchant with LRW, otherwise I doubt it'll be worth it.
You should just remember that those are not game winning moves, but mostly things that might help in dire situations: in usual scenarios you won't need them.
The Jitte one is interesting, but I can't figure a situation where I have a charged Jitte and want to make sure to disenchant something. Still we have to be creative when playing such interactive decks!
About discard, apart from Ad Nauseam/IGG/NO/Humility/Ringleader/TimeSpiral/Turnabout there's nothing else (that I recall right now) that you might want to get rid of. If you try the deck you'll notice that the life loss might be an issue, but I like to be able to hit those targets. Obviously if you don't face them you can change the ratio of the discard spells... as well as the sideboard.
Budget shouldn't be a factor in building a deck. Have a friend lend you cards if you have to =P Also, we're not speaking about duals/candelabras (what a ripoff) price range.
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
3eowulf
@Star|Scream:
The most important trick is just to vial him in to rfg one of your blocker before damage or before a sweeper/removal. Vial in to rfg sculler on the stack might be useful only if you know the opponent doesn't have anything to disenchant with LRW, otherwise I doubt it'll be worth it.
You should just remember that those are not game winning moves, but mostly things that might help in dire situations: in usual scenarios you won't need them.
The Jitte one is interesting, but I can't figure a situation where I have a charged Jitte and want to make sure to disenchant something. Still we have to be creative when playing such interactive decks!
About discard, apart from Ad Nauseam/IGG/NO/Humility/Ringleader/TimeSpiral/Turnabout there's nothing else (that I recall right now) that you might want to get rid of. If you try the deck you'll notice that the life loss might be an issue, but I like to be able to hit those targets. Obviously if you don't face them you can change the ratio of the discard spells... as well as the sideboard.
Budget shouldn't be a factor in building a deck. Have a friend lend you cards if you have to =P Also, we're not speaking about duals/candelabras (what a ripoff) price range.
Well For $70+ more, there better be a good reason to run thoughtseize over inquisition. Not only that, but my primary reason for asking was the lifeloss. So if thoughtseize is strictly better, then no, budget won't be a factor. However, if two cards have their own merits and one also happens to be $16 less each, yes I may want to test the cheaper one as well.
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Star|Scream
Well For $70+ more, there better be a good reason to run thoughtseize over inquisition. Not only that, but my primary reason for asking was the lifeloss. So if thoughtseize is strictly better, then no, budget won't be a factor. However, if two cards have their own merits and one also happens to be $16 less each, yes I may want to test the cheaper one as well.
Thoughtseize can get Force. Thoughtseize can get Jace. Thoughtseize can get Moat. Thoughtseize can get Tendrils. Thoughtseize can get Ill-Gotten Gains. Thoughtseize can get Time Spiral.
How is this even a debate?
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
markbris
I'm playing deadguy at Atlanta SCG this weekend. Not sure on the list yet but it will not be with vials.
So I played it yesterday going 3-4 and pretty much feeling miserable about it. Gonna write up a trip report here in a sec and post tonight.
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Deck:
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
7 Swamp
3 Plains
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Vindicate
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Serenity
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Engineered Plague
2 Ethersworn Canonist
Round 1: John with Goblins
Game 1:
I keep a hand on the play with a turn one thoughtseize, mom and stoneforge I think, no STP. I lead with the thoughtseize and see he’s on goblins with lackey, matron, vial, mogg war marshal. I take the lackey as I have no removal and I don’t like laying a blocker out there and hoping they don’t have/draw removal. He might have had gempalm as well, not sure. The whole game rested on a misplay by me. I get out a mom and stoneforge and get jitte in play on the stoneforge with him having nothing in play still. I think he got stuck on land. I swing in with the equipped sfm and he vials in mogg war marshal. I go to make my sfm pro red in response so he can get thru but he asks something about the order of everything and I get confused and end up saying that the war marshal guys are in play. I’m a moron, he gempalms in response to my pro red and its rape from there.
Game 2:
Board in two plagues and take out two canonists I think. I keep a hand with mom and sfm. I roll out the mom and then stoneforge then another mom I think and all he has is two lackeys. He scoops when I equip jitte.
Game 3:
I hate knowing I’m against goblins on the draw cuz I feel like non-stp hands are such a huge gamble. He decides to mulligan though and I decide to roll a solid hand with inquisition, hymn, and musta been sfm probably. He leads Aether Vial and I sigh relief. I take his matron or warchief with the inquisition and he plays war marshal on his turn. I drop hymn and take his last two cards. I draw plague third turn and drop it and that ends it pretty much as I drop sfm the turn after.
Matches: 1-0
Games: 2-1
Round 2: John with NO Bant
Game 1:
I don’t remember as much about this one other than I end up playing out two dark confidants and hitting a bunch of shit to hurt me. I died from my confidants like a turn away from gaining control. I’m pretty sure I made mistakes here by not chumping enough to keep my life total higher.
Game 2:
I end up getting nighthawk with jitte and sofi and take it down easily.
Game 3:
He goes turn 1 heirach, into two turn and three Rhox’s. I get a confidant out and I think two moms eventually but die to my confidant again just before gaining control.
Matches: 1-1
Games: 3-3
Round 3: Rob with Merfolk
Game 1:
He’s on the play and leads with cursecatcher and I just don’t remember disrupting him much. I know he dazed at least one vampire nighthawk. I got the other one down and he steals it with sower of temptation as well as dropping a kira and rapes me.
Game 2:
Pretty much the same thing. I think I get out two vampire nighthawks but he beat on me early and I can’t swing them without getting destroyed in return and he overwhelms me with mutavaults and creatures.
Matches: 1-2
Games: 3-5
Round 4: Phillip with Rock
Game 1:
He leads a dark confidant on the play, I don’t have swords and I don’t draw removal for a year so yea.
Game 2:
I think I mulligan at least once here and don’t find anything great. He starts off kinda slow but eventually just beats me down. Oh yea I played several things but they just kept dying to go for the throat and swords.
Matches: 1-3
Games: 3-7
Round 5: Eli Theo with Enchantress
Game 1:
I keep a hand with thoughtseize, hymn and a tidehollow. I destroy his hand and I think he gets down a sylvan library and a wild growth. He hits a blood moon, WTF, off the library and I have fetched up all duals cuz last time I checked they didn’t run blood moon. I beat for 2-3 turns with tidehollow before hardcasting sofi and going to town.
Game 2:
I bring in 4x serenity and some mix of canonists and edicts. He mulligans to 5 and drops a leyline of sanctity but no lands. I play nothing I think until turn 4 when I vindicate it and he has like a chrome mox maybe at this point. I destroy his hand with hymns and such and he dies.
Matches: 2-3
Games: 5-7
Round 6: Leonard with Thopter Foundry UW
Game 1:
I drop a ton of discard on him, he gets out foundry with sword of the meek but it take a while and I vindicated one of them to slow him down a bit. Just barely get lethal on the back of a sofi before he makes too many tokens for me to handle.
Game 2:
Bring in 4x serenity and 2 plague for 4x STP and 2x of something else. I draw an opener with plague,serenity and mom I think. I beat some early on but he drops a ensnaring bridge. I’m holding the serenity still but he has academy ruins and I can’t force through lethal on one turn. I chill and he largely does nothing. I keep drawing with confidant looking for vindicates and wastelands. Finally hit a vindicate and hit the ruins. I drop serenity next turn right after he drops EE for 1. Serenity goes off taking his foundry, mox opal, ensnaring bridge with it. I drop two tidehollows and along with a nighthawk they go to town.
Matches: 3-3
Games : 7-7
Round 7: Alex Bertoncini with what do you think?
Game 1:
He mulligans to six. I pass on a real slow hand knowing hes playing merfolk. My 6 has one land and it’s a wasteland. Go to 5 with mom swords plains vindicate something. I draw 3 vindicates in a row and die.
Game 2:
I mull to 6 this time and he keeps his initial hand. I lead with mom and have at least two swords. He plays out a vial and a dude or so and then drops kira. I don’t feel like I drew much and he ran me over.
So that’s it. I felt overmatched mostly the whole day. I thought my merfolk matchup was pretty solid but I think I was used to the vial list I played before cuz it was rough with this one. I was expecting a lot of combo and obviously played none.
My sideboard was pretty worthless other than the plagues and serenity. I brought in edicts against enchantress, merfolk, and Bant but they were pretty bad against Bant cuz he had arbors, hierarchs etc. Really wished I had played perish in the board as it woulda easily won games for me against Bant.
Wish I had given Phyrexian revoker a shot in the canonist place as it would have been better against merfolk and goblins. I really hated nighthawks. They are just too expensive for what they do. I had originally had 4x vial and 4 avenger but when I went to no vial the avenger mana cost was too much. I figured nighthawks would be good since they are gonna come down about the same time anyways but avenger dodges daze easier, leaves mana open for swords, and can swing/block at the same time.
Hymn was really good all day and I’m glad I moved it into the list. It gives that extra little bit of disruption over my previous lists. I felt like the number of mom, sfm, and equipment was perfect. Vindicate was the other card I pretty much hated. It’s so good in some matchups and just so terrible in others. I’m probably gonna go back down to 2 or 3 where I had it before.
As far as I where I go from here with the deck, I’m gonna try a few things. Def gonna see how revoker changes the game, maybe go with vials, revokers and avengers. I just hate dropping aether vial first turn. I feel like we get so much less mileage out of it than goblins/merfolk. I much prefer dropping a mom or first turn discard. I feel like goblins uses it to explode later and merfolk can drop it and still have counter backup to prevent shenanigans. However I know it improves the goblin and merfolk matchups as well as countertop etc so I might go back. On the other hand, I might try out a more traditional deadguy list that’s super aggro/disruptive. We will see.
P.S.
I also saw this deck around me multiple times throughout the day with vials in it but that was also at the lower tables so I dunno. The deck just seems underpowered so that might be why I go with a more high risk/powerful version.
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Star|Scream
Well For $70+ more, there better be a good reason to run thoughtseize over inquisition. Not only that, but my primary reason for asking was the lifeloss. So if thoughtseize is strictly better, then no, budget won't be a factor. However, if two cards have their own merits and one also happens to be $16 less each, yes I may want to test the cheaper one as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CorpT
Thoughtseize can get Force. Thoughtseize can get Jace. Thoughtseize can get Moat. Thoughtseize can get Tendrils. Thoughtseize can get Ill-Gotten Gains. Thoughtseize can get Time Spiral.
How is this even a debate?
If those are the only cards we're worried about then we should just play duress.
Personally, I agree that thoughtseize is the correct card, but it's not for any of those cards. But for the sake of discussion, let's run through a couple of the matchups.
Against Tendrils...Tendrils is not the card I take 90% of the time - it would typically be LED, AdNaus, or a tutor (most of which can be taken by IoK OR Duress).
Moat's a bitch - but it can be taken by Duress as well.
Against SpiralTide, I'm typically looking for either cunning wish or high Tide - they always have too many time spirals anyway...they often pitch them to force or brainstorm them away. This is generally a horid match for us anyway because our wastelands do nothing and brainstorm neuders discard. There is really no right choice for our discard in the matchup - it's a 30% match regardless of what we take. The only way this match improves is if we have something that cat put a "real" clock on quickly (something that isn't a bear), and then somehow protect it with our discard (around brainstorm).
Against anything that runs force of will - I never take force of will. I'm sure everyone will say I'm an idiot for this, but honestly, if I make them discard a threat and they are left having to 2 for 1 themselves against another threat...that's fine, it's such a tempo gain, especially because our decks run bears...so they are left countering dinky spells 9 times out of 10, just to keep from getting blown out, because I've made them discard their only chance of racing. So honestly, not being able to take force with IoK is a pretty minimal loss in my book.
Jace...is a whore. He needs to go if you see him. He bounces scullers and sets a clock all while providing card advantage. It's slightly dependant on hand, but generally if I see this card I have to take him with discard. IoK obviously cannot do this, Duress and Thoughtseize obviously can.
Where Duress fails is against the aggro matches. However, I feel that in most of these matches IoK shines over thoughtseize because of the life loss, and the fact that there are very few 4+ mana threats in agressive decks. I'd like to pull out lackey if i see it in a goblin hand...but obviously duress cannot do that....but it can get vial...against fish I just want to take a lord out of their hand (they can have force, and I can play around daze)...but I can't take a lord with duress.
Wait...did I say I prefer thoughtseize? oh yeah...sorry, back on topic...
Where thoughtseize really shines? the unknown. We can theory craft all day about which discard spell is better in the known matchups...but the reality is that thoughtseize offers the most versatility in the matchups we can't talk about. Between Thoughtseize and Scullers I run 7-8 discard spells that can take anything out of my opponents hand, statistically I'm going to see one in my first couple of turns - it's pretty powerful IMHO. When we all start talking about cards with built in limitations - Grunt, Serra, Duress, IoK, etc...we are building in limitations to our decks that make our matchups even more difficult - especially against decks that we know nothing about. And it creates situations where we have more cards that we need to board out in some matchups...personally I'd rather have the versatility in the maindeck so that I have the fewest dead cards in EVERY matchup. This didn't used to be such a big deal when there were 4 decks in legacy that won all of the events...but there are way too many decks right now, the format is way too open. Versatility reigns in the current environment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
markbris
So that’s it. I felt overmatched mostly the whole day. I thought my merfolk matchup was pretty solid but I think I was used to the vial list I played before cuz it was rough with this one. I was expecting a lot of combo and obviously played none.
My sideboard was pretty worthless other than the plagues and serenity. I brought in edicts against enchantress, merfolk, and Bant but they were pretty bad against Bant cuz he had arbors, hierarchs etc. Really wished I had played perish in the board as it woulda easily won games for me against Bant.
Wish I had given Phyrexian revoker a shot in the canonist place as it would have been better against merfolk and goblins. I really hated nighthawks. They are just too expensive for what they do. I had originally had 4x vial and 4 avenger but when I went to no vial the avenger mana cost was too much. I figured nighthawks would be good since they are gonna come down about the same time anyways but avenger dodges daze easier, leaves mana open for swords, and can swing/block at the same time.
Hymn was really good all day and I’m glad I moved it into the list. It gives that extra little bit of disruption over my previous lists. I felt like the number of mom, sfm, and equipment was perfect. Vindicate was the other card I pretty much hated. It’s so good in some matchups and just so terrible in others. I’m probably gonna go back down to 2 or 3 where I had it before.
As far as I where I go from here with the deck, I’m gonna try a few things. Def gonna see how revoker changes the game, maybe go with vials, revokers and avengers. I just hate dropping aether vial first turn. I feel like we get so much less mileage out of it than goblins/merfolk. I much prefer dropping a mom or first turn discard. I feel like goblins uses it to explode later and merfolk can drop it and still have counter backup to prevent shenanigans. However I know it improves the goblin and merfolk matchups as well as countertop etc so I might go back. On the other hand, I might try out a more traditional deadguy list that’s super aggro/disruptive. We will see.
P.S.
I also saw this deck around me multiple times throughout the day with vials in it but that was also at the lower tables so I dunno. The deck just seems underpowered so that might be why I go with a more high risk/powerful version.
I agree with most of your assessment. I also feel Vial is underpowered, Vindicate is generally just an over-costed removal spell (in most matches), maindeck revokers are the way to go, and Perish is a must-have in the board.
I disagree about your assessment of Nighthawks and Hymn, but it could be a matter of perspective. Personally, against 90% of the decks I face I'd rather have the 3rd and 4th scullers than the Hymns...i generally find that hymn feels like it's doing something great, but does nothing to apply a clock and doesn't necessarilly gain tempo - it does great things for attrition games that go deep into the mid to late game...as long as you draw it early and they have the cards to discard. What I'm saying is that I find hymn's upside to be very situational.
Nighthawks - I only sort of disagree with your assessment. I agree that they are a bad finisher. i don't agree that they are necessarilly a bad card, or the wrong card for the deck. In my experience this is the card that gets me to the late game against all the aggro decks (especially when paired with mom), which is saying something. However, if it were Goyf or Knight of the Reliquary, I would probably win a hell of a lot more matchups against combo and decks that I can't put up an effective clock against. This card is one of the best and one of the worst cards in the deck, IMHO it is one of the cards that define the deck as it currently stands - it is a primary factor is making the deck good against aggro and bad against combo...but that's just my opinion. If you want to give your opponents a clock, I would suggest adding more powerful creatures, but I would not suggest cutting this card unless you want a worse matchup against aggro. I will say that if you play with this deck enough with 4 nighthawks, you will win games solely because you are playing nighthawks, there are times when they simply win you games.
high risk/reward...if you don't like vials...do a straight swap for Dark Rituals - especially if you are going to stick with Hymn. I think there are stil a TON of options to be explored with this deck. As for the deck being at the lower tables...I wouldn't read too much into that. Like someone else said, it's the cheapest and easiest deck to port into from other formats or from other legacy decks - so there are a lot of people new to the deck or even new to the format that are trying to pilot this deck, many are bound to fail, especially if they don't know the format.
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Not sure if this kind of discussion is allowed here but what do you guys think about this card in BW Dead guy:
Hex Parasite
Rare
1
Artifact Creature - Insect(?)
1/1
X{PB}: Target a permanent. Remove up to X counters from that permanent. ~ gains +1/+0 until end of turn for each counter removed this way.
({PB} may be paid for with either or 2 life.)
This card was spoiled from New Phyrexia
Synergizes rather well with Jotun Grunt, good to stop opposing Aether Vials, Jittes and planeswalkers. Can be pumped even if the targeted permanent has no counters in it.
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
paladin3056
Not sure if this kind of discussion is allowed here but what do you guys think about this card in BW Dead guy:
Hex Parasite
Rare
1
Artifact Creature - Insect(?)
1/1
X{PB}: Target a permanent. Remove up to X counters from that permanent. ~ gains +1/+0 until end of turn for each counter removed this way.
({PB} may be paid for with either or 2 life.)
This card was spoiled from New Phyrexia
Synergizes rather well with Jotun Grunt, good to stop opposing Aether Vials, Jittes and planeswalkers. Can be pumped even if the targeted permanent has no counters in it.
Unless I'm missing something, that would not be the case.
Also, if I'm reading it correctly (and it's translated correctly), your opponent can "fizzle" some of the pump by removing counters at instant speed. In the case of Umezawa's Jitte, they can always just remove those counters to gain life, or more likely (unless your Parasite has more than 1 toughness or some type of shroud), they'll just kill your Parasite. It's pretty hot against a lot of other cards though.
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
paladin3056
Not sure if this kind of discussion is allowed here but what do you guys think about this card in BW Dead guy:
Hex Parasite
Rare
1
Artifact Creature - Insect(?)
1/1
X{PB}: Target a permanent. Remove up to X counters from that permanent. ~ gains +1/+0 until end of turn for each counter removed this way.
({PB} may be paid for with either or 2 life.)
This card was spoiled from New Phyrexia
Synergizes rather well with Jotun Grunt, good to stop opposing Aether Vials, Jittes and planeswalkers. Can be pumped even if the targeted permanent has no counters in it.
Unless I'm missing something, that would not be the case.
Also, if I'm reading it correctly (and it's translated correctly), your opponent can "fizzle" some of the pump by removing counters at instant speed. In the case of Umezawa's Jitte, they can always just remove those counters to gain life, or more likely (unless your Parasite has more than 1 toughness or some type of shroud), they'll just kill your Parasite. It's pretty hot against a lot of other cards though.
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lordofthepit
Unless I'm missing something, that would not be the case.
Also, if I'm reading it correctly (and it's translated correctly), your opponent can "fizzle" some of the pump by removing counters at instant speed. In the case of Umezawa's Jitte, they can always just remove those counters to gain life, or more likely (unless your Parasite has more than 1 toughness or some type of shroud), they'll just kill your Parasite. It's pretty hot against a lot of other cards though.
Ah yes I forgot about the part of killing a creature with Jitte, but it would force a jitte user to remove a counter in response to this card.
Yeah it has a lot of uses against alot of other cards as well and as bonus it can synergize rather well with Jotun Grunt by removing the age counters on it. Can kill anying Planeswalkers as well disable opposing Aether Vials. It only cost 1 mana thus we won't get hurt with Dark Confidant with it.
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Playing bad cards to make ok cards good isn't the right way to go. The mana requirement to activate it makes it pretty bad. On top of it being a somewhat useless ability. Stopping Vial is nice... I guess. The question really comes down to: what are you going to take out to put this in?
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
troopatroop
It's posts like this that make me regret even discussing a third color. It just opens the door to anything - this deck shares roughly 10 cards with 90% of the deadguy builds that are being discussed in this thread right now (excluding land). Getting people to talk about this list intelligently here will be very difficult.
I'm not going to say this is a bad deck (and I don't think it is, or rather I haven't analyzed it enough to make a decent judgement), and I'm not going to get into specific card selection because ultimately I just don't think this discussion belongs in this thread. I do have some light opinions on it if you are intested in talking in PM's.
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CorpT
Playing bad cards to make ok cards good isn't the right way to go. The mana requirement to activate it makes it pretty bad. On top of it being a somewhat useless ability. Stopping Vial is nice... I guess. The question really comes down to: what are you going to take out to put this in?
I think this is the fundamental principle for building Deadguy (or any sort of 'fair' deck for that matter): use good cards. Make a list of good cards and use that pool. I see Deadguy as essentially playing the best tempo-oriented cards in b/w. If we are talking about Phyrexian Negator vs. Mother of Runes, well, that's on track because both are GOOD cards, and can strategically do similar functions.
With that said, comparing mediocre cards (I won't say bad...there really aren't any 'bad' cards, just bad choices for different decks) is also fundamentally neccessary in Legacy. The format dictates many of the deckbuilding rules that must be followed. Look at a 'meh' card like Elvish Visionary...basically crap outside of combo elves, but in combo elves creates a card-drawing engine with Wirewood Symbiote. Look at Ichorid...worse than useless outside of Dredge (well...maybe in a monoblack aggro deck...but for 4 mana you get Abyssal Persecutor, so yeah, only good in Dredge lol) Hell, look at Wasteland!!! It doesn't gain you anything but tempo...but in legacy, that halt in tempo is all you need in many cases to work out a win. Plenty of cards start out as 'mediocre' and become 'awesome' because of their implications in the format.
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
@ Troopatroop's list:
Is Domain Zoo coming back to the meta? xD
I don't consider splashing a third color to be taboo, but just because you have the ability to do such doesn't mean you should try and run every amazing card from the varying colors. Part of Deadguy's strength against decks such as Rock is that we run an efficient card base off of just two colors so it takes us less time to stabilize while still being able to pack a solid package of 8-10 discard, StP/Vindicate, and card tempo via Bob. That having been said, our decks primary weakness is that in exchange for the insane stability Mom/Grunt and our various spells grant is that we lack notable beaters to put the opponent on a short clock. Yeah, swinging at the opponent with a Nighthawk wearing equipment can be a game buster but ultimately pretty much all our creatures lack the "stand alone," characteristic we see in 'Goyf/KotR/Terravore etc.
True, black does gain us access to afordable evasive beaters such as Tombstalker and Abyssal Persecutor but both have obvious downsides for the deck. 'Stalker, costing 8, means he can only be run as a 1-2 of in conjunction with Bob, and Persecutor requires us to run a greater number of kill outlets to compensate for his ability (although MDing 1-2 Go for the Throat might useful anyway as I forsee the meta shifting to more aggro in relation the rise of midrange decks like Rock).
I hate to sound like one of those "OMG Spl@$h teh 'G0yf een eVery DEck1!1!!" adovocates, but 'Goyf is an efficient beater that requires next to nothing of an investment and he is one of the only third-color creatures that would require us to alter next to nothing to fit him him. Maybe do a manabase of:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Plains
That's the manabase I'm currently running. I chose the Savannah over the basic Forest because I see little point in adding a basic that can only be used for 4 cards of the total deck. Especially considering we run so many color-coordinated cards (W, BB, 1BB, 1BW) so having a land that cannot fulfill the color aspect ended up hurting me. 3 on-color lands that also fix B/W has fulfilled the function for me thus far.
As of right now I'm running 4 'Goyf as is the standard, however I'm considering scaling that # down to 3. I've found Mom to be essential in my mirror/Junk MU's so I was rather reluctant to cut her. I'll most likely bump her up to 2 and cut the 4th Top I'm currently running.
Anyway, I'm going somewhat off topic. I ultimately don't think splashing a color is bad for the deck as long as it provides a useful function that doesn't disrupt the strategy for the rest of the deck. Adding a 3rd color such as I've done helps to solve one of our inherent weaknesses while still keeping the deck running exactly the same as the pure BW build.
Forlorn Egoist
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Is nobody interested in the new Phyrexian Cancellor spoiled from New Phyrexia?
BBBB
Creature - Horror
5/5
Trample
Whenever a source deals damage to ~, that source's controller sacrifices that many permanents.
My main concern is that it's going to be difficult to play outside mono black, but some Deadguy lists only run 4 Scrubland and no plains, so maybe it wouldn't be too bad.
In the same vein of Deadguy having no good finishers, maybe we can use that to our advantage with Retribution of the Meek? Deals with Progenitus, Emrakul, Dreadnought, Tombstalker, and most of the time with Goyf and KotR.
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dick Cheese
Is nobody interested in the new Phyrexian Cancellor spoiled from New Phyrexia?
BBBB
Creature - Horror
5/5
Trample
Whenever a source deals damage to ~, that source's controller sacrifices that many permanents.
My main concern is that it's going to be difficult to play outside mono black, but some Deadguy lists only run 4 Scrubland and no plains, so maybe it wouldn't be too bad.
In the same vein of Deadguy having no good finishers, maybe we can use that to our advantage with
Retribution of the Meek? Deals with Progenitus, Emrakul, Dreadnought, Tombstalker, and most of the time with Goyf and KotR.
When I saw this card, I considered the possibility of running it, but sometimes I have a hard enough time even finding BBB for Gatekeeper of Malakir's kicker, (outside of drawing my only Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth). Plus, with all the exile and destroy effects, it may not be worth it.
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CorpT
Playing bad cards to make ok cards good isn't the right way to go. The mana requirement to activate it makes it pretty bad. On top of it being a somewhat useless ability. Stopping Vial is nice... I guess. The question really comes down to: what are you going to take out to put this in?
It's not bad in a sense that it's totally unplayable, but it's more like a card that is worth testing. The mana requirement for the ability is not that hard to use, eventually if you don't have life you can just activate it with mana and vice versa. It does not stop Vial only, but stops planeswalkers, jitte, ravager, smokestack, coralhelm commander and others. We'll just have to wait and see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dick Cheese
Is nobody interested in the new Phyrexian Cancellor spoiled from New Phyrexia?
BBBB
Creature - Horror
5/5
Trample
Whenever a source deals damage to ~, that source's controller sacrifices that many permanents.
My main concern is that it's going to be difficult to play outside mono black, but some Deadguy lists only run 4 Scrubland and no plains, so maybe it wouldn't be too bad.
In the same vein of Deadguy having no good finishers, maybe we can use that to our advantage with
Retribution of the Meek? Deals with Progenitus, Emrakul, Dreadnought, Tombstalker, and most of the time with Goyf and KotR.
I have already thought of this guy, but the cost really restricts us from playing it. Adding in more Urbirg just play this card is really not worth it.
Retribution of the meek is a really interesting card, it won't kill our guys most of the time, but what would you take out for this?
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
paladin3056
Retribution of the meek is a really interesting card, it won't kill our guys most of the time, but what would you take out for this?
I think the question is what does this take care of that Perish doesn't? A swarm of goblins, fish, or affinity I'm guessing or a cheated emrakul? I think we have better answers (except for the emrakul) already.
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
paladin3056
It's not bad in a sense that it's totally unplayable, but it's more like a card that is worth testing. The mana requirement for the ability is not that hard to use, eventually if you don't have life you can just activate it with mana and vice versa. It does not stop Vial only, but stops planeswalkers, jitte, ravager, smokestack, coralhelm commander and others. We'll just have to wait and see.
It's not the B that is the issue, but the X. If I have to spend 5 mana and 2 life to remove 5 counters from a Jace... I'd just rather Vindicate it or attack it. For Vial, paying XB to get it to 0 and then 1B or 1-2 Life every turn just to make sure they don't get to two seems... very lackluster. Again, what are you going to take out to replace it? You have to take something out. Nothing is worse than this, therefore, it's not going to see play.
It doesn't stop Jitte. It takes one Jitte counter and makes them use it on that for a card from your hand. It's too narrow. Everything else you mention can be dealt with by something else more efficiently. Especially because this doesn't "solve" anything but Jace as the other counters will come back.
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CorpT
It's not the B that is the issue, but the X. If I have to spend 5 mana and 2 life to remove 5 counters from a Jace... I'd just rather Vindicate it or attack it. For Vial, paying XB to get it to 0 and then 1B or 1-2 Life every turn just to make sure they don't get to two seems... very lackluster. Again, what are you going to take out to replace it? You have to take something out. Nothing is worse than this, therefore, it's not going to see play.
It doesn't stop Jitte. It takes one Jitte counter and makes them use it on that for a card from your hand. It's too narrow. Everything else you mention can be dealt with by something else more efficiently. Especially because this doesn't "solve" anything but Jace as the other counters will come back.
Point taken, moving on. How about what are your thoughts on this card?
Praetor's Grip
Rare
1BB
Sorcery
Search your opponent's deck for a card and exile it facedown. While it's exiled this way, you may look at it and play it as though it were in your hand.
I think it's more of a SB card at most, good against combo to get rid of your opponent's wincon. Against aggro decks you can get one of his big beaters to play or to get rid of.
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Praetor's Grip: It will be better if you're running green. However, it doesn't improve board position or game state. So you essentially dump 3 mana into a card that doesn't improve your situation. In many cases it will be a timewalk for your opponent. At best it gives you some information and sets up a late game quasi-tutor effect for 3 cmc, but in the B/w lists it will probably just be a tutor for a swords most of the time...and in that case, why not just run Path in its place? It may have an application here, but it just seems super slow to me atm.
Retribution of the Meek is a very interesting card IMHO. It deals with a lot of the stuff Perish does + Emmy and 'Naught, and a host of other cards (including random stuff in the stompy decks that are bad for us). The only problem I have with it, is that it doesn't ALWAYS kill KotR and 'Goyf, and it almost never kills Wild Nacatl, Noble Hierarch, and Qasali Pridemage, so it's significantly weaker against Zoo than Perish. It has a great upside though, in that it will never effect our creatures unless they are equiped - and with minor adjustments as to "who" is carrying a sword it should be an all upside kind of card.
If you decide to run retribution in the board for something, I don't think it can be a perish substitute (because it does so little against zoo), but I think it's a viable option to include as a substitue to Edicts to answer cheated in dudes...and it has the bonus upside of also answering Rock Decks, and other decks that run 'Goyf/KotR as finishers (in addition to perish), and it has the versatility to also come in against creature heavy decks, in a similar manner to edicts. It's weaker against Fish and Gobo's than edicts are, but generally I've never been crazy about edicts against these decks anyway since they always have a guy they can give away in order to save their lords.
Ultimately the question becomes this, "Is the 1 more mana of Retribution worth it, in order to gain some versatility against rock decks and some of the random decks that populate the field?" Personally, I think it is.
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bokwinkle
Praetor's Grip: It will be better if you're running green. However, it doesn't improve board position or game state. So you essentially dump 3 mana into a card that doesn't improve your situation. In many cases it will be a timewalk for your opponent. At best it gives you some information and sets up a late game quasi-tutor effect for 3 cmc, but in the B/w lists it will probably just be a tutor for a swords most of the time...and in that case, why not just run Path in its place? It may have an application here, but it just seems super slow to me atm.
Retribution of the Meek is a very interesting card IMHO. It deals with a lot of the stuff Perish does + Emmy and 'Naught, and a host of other cards (including random stuff in the stompy decks that are bad for us). The only problem I have with it, is that it doesn't ALWAYS kill KotR and 'Goyf, and it almost never kills Wild Nacatl, Noble Hierarch, and Qasali Pridemage, so it's significantly weaker against Zoo than Perish. It has a great upside though, in that it will never effect our creatures unless they are equiped - and with minor adjustments as to "who" is carrying a sword it should be an all upside kind of card.
If you decide to run retribution in the board for something, I don't think it can be a perish substitute (because it does so little against zoo), but I think it's a viable option to include as a substitue to Edicts to answer cheated in dudes...and it has the bonus upside of also answering Rock Decks, and other decks that run 'Goyf/KotR as finishers (in addition to perish), and it has the versatility to also come in against creature heavy decks, in a similar manner to edicts. It's weaker against Fish and Gobo's than edicts are, but generally I've never been crazy about edicts against these decks anyway since they always have a guy they can give away in order to save their lords.
Ultimately the question becomes this, "Is the 1 more mana AND SORCERY SPEED of Retribution worth it, in order to gain some versatility against rock decks and some of the random decks that populate the field?" Personally, I think it is.
Edited
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
The sorcery speed may come into play in a few matchups if you're on your game and it's in you're opening hand, but generally I feel as though it's not that big of a drawback.
Generally we are playing stuff on our turns - we are not sitting with mana open, waiting to respond to our opponent. This is especially true in the early turns (especially turn 2). The only situation I can think of where the instant speed of edict matters is when I'm staring down 12-post and they are getting ready to hardcast Emmy - Aeon Bridge has similar situations as well. But honstely, these matches are so abysmal anyway that I'm somewhere between altogether ignorning the matchups or completely revising the deck to be able to deal with them - honestly having 2-3 edicts in the deck with no way to go get them really doesn't improve this matchup, when compared to having 2-3 retributions to deal with the same threats. Wasteland is really the only card that makes these matchups winnable - edict just delays the innevitable...and when you're staring down a 'Naught and an Emmy (from Aeon) or a Titan and an Emmy (from 12 post) edict doesn't seem that good anyway.
Against reanimator, NO, and SneakShow sorcery speed is fine, and the sweeping effect is actually preferred against NO and reanimator. The lone downside of the sorcery speed in these matches is against sneak-attack...but that's what revoker is for.
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
3rd Place at Mirkwood GPT 3rd March 2011
as promised, a tournament report for my 3rd place finish this past weekend. first, my decklist—this deck strays closer to the gate splashed white, since it includes Abyssal Persecutor and a few maindeck sac outlets. this is the only Legacy deck i play since returning to the game in January—so i’m 15 years out of date and a lot has changed. given that, i was really happy with how tightly and optimally i played, especially after scrubbing pretty hard in the two previous weeknight tournaments i’d played.
Maindeck
22 Lands
4 Wasteland
5 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
Spells
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Funeral Charm
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
Artifacts
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
Creatures
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant
Sideboard
2 Extirpate
3 Tariff
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Vindicate
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
6-Round Swiss:
Round 1 against Anton (Rb Goblins)
G1: As soon as I saw badlands, i knew what was coming. Fortunately there wasn’t a first turn Lackey, but despite his relatively slow start I didn’t get into the game, especially after seeing my Dark Confidant Gempalm’d and two 9-point swings come in thereafter.
G2: in came the 4 Engineered Plagues and an Inquisition of Kozilek, with -1 Bob -3 Vindicate -1 Persecutor (I think... need to take better notes). I land a Revoker before his Mogg Fanatic comes online (naming Mogg Fanatic), then land a second Revoker on Æther Vial. the Revokers eventually disappeared as chumps but I landed an Engineered Plague soon thereafter, followed by a Persecutor.
G3: i think this was the game where i Funeral Charm’d the 1st turn lackey, got a Bob online. Life totals show a stabilization at 9 with Nighthawk, and I got a gracious concession after the second Plague hit.
1-0-0 (2-1-0)
Round 2: Nick with GW Junk
G1: risk a 1-swamp, 1-wasteland hand on the draw with a thoughtseize. T2 wasteland his Savannah hoping to keep him off KotR... and never see a second land. i was beaten down for the win.
G2: a win. probably saw more removal than him, thats all I can say. Life totals went back up, so i must have had a Nighthawk online.
G3: (i think i put in 1 Vindicate here, not much of a board plan for this one)—am overrun with creatures. turns out his build has 4 Swords and not much other removal... with the rest taken up by creatures. Goyf/KotR/Kitchen Finks (embarrassing, i know) and a SoLaS get there.
1-1-0 (3-3-0)
Round 3: Narayan with NO-Show
G1: on the draw, revoker his Hierarch. I land a nighthawk early, keep him off mana and get there, don’t see a threat or a combo piece, so i put him on combo and bring in the Extirpates and the Tariffs.
G2: T3 Emrakul. :| i draw and foolishly say “I have an out for that....”, then die.
G3: draw it out, extirpate NO after getting it to the yard. i get cliqued on my draw step and he pauses to look at the Tariff... keep my fool mouth shut, but he takes it anyway. get there with a Revoker and 2 Confidants Wolfing away... keeping the opponent off manabirds/elves is my strategy against NO and just sometimes works.
2-1-0 (6-4-0)
Round 4 Chris with Merfolk
G1: stabilize with nighthawk, blow up mutavault with wasteland and vindicate islands....grind it out. i was leading with hymns to suck up counters and sitting back like a control player.
G2: lots of disruption, revokers on Coralhelm Commander and Cursecatcher....one early EPlague, paid for daze to land bob i think, then am Bob/Topping like a champ, cracking shuffles like i’m a Rock player (except when i mess up re-stacking and peel a Persecutor, putting me at 3... awkward...i hold onto a Plow in case i see something i can’t stack with Top, but i don’t.) after putting him into the negative with persecutor, cast cabal therapy and flash it back same turn. swish.
3-1-0 (8-4-0)
Round 5 Zaiem with Aluren
G1: a drawn out game, i see brainstorms, walls, and not much else. i have never played against Aluren, but similiar to game 3 the blue + no threat + easy win screams ‘combo’ to me and in come the extirpates. i blow up 4 trops and an island this game—pretty sure the mana disruption was the key.
G2: an early thoughtseize gets a brainstorm in response. i still don’t know what he’s on, so i extirpate brainstorm (protip: this shuffles away what a combo player has hidden!). looking through the deck i see Aluren, the harpy/strix/stalker, as well as an imperial recruiter, and still don’t cl
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
First -I like the list. The more I playtest and talk to other people that play this deck I really think Persecutor is the way to go wtih this deck if you're staying in 2 colors.
Also, I really think Perish is 100% necessary in our board. Decks that pack 'Goyf + KotR + other green fatties just wreck our faces - they are faster, and pack more threats than we pack removal. So I agree that finding room in the board for them makes a lot of sense.
Congrat's on your success!
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Hey guys,
in the following i would hope you can write some comments to my decklist:
21 Lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
5 Swamp
4 Plains
5 Artifacts:
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
21 Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Instants:
4 Swords to Plowshares
9 Sorceries:
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
15 Sideboard:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Tariff
4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
2 Perish
Im not sure to run more removals, because 4 StoP are a bit less, but on the other hand i have nine discard cards.
Secondly im not sure about running a second Jitte because 1 removal and i cant get it back.
Whats your comment to this?
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Kiwi -
First, let me say I understand all of your current choices in the decklist - there isn't any cards here that seem out of place.
That being said, there are some counts that seem like they should be reviewed. I think a 4-of at the revoker spot may be too much, depending on your meta. If they are absolutely stellar for you though, I'd probably keep them in - but my preferance is to cut them to 2.
Next, the 6-card mystic package PLUS the 2 persecutors is probably a bit much. Generally, I've found that if I'm running Persecutors that I can get away with just a 4-card mystic package - which is ok anyway because sword of light and shadow is pretty poor. I would probably go to 3 Persecutors though.
This leaves 3 flex spots so far...
In the discard spots - I personally feel that 4 Hymn AND 4 Sculler is too much 2 cmc discard. And, I feel that 4 thoughtsieze is absolutely necessary. I think you could easilly cut a pair of scullers here and not look back - especially if you go to a 4-card mystic package, and bears aren't as necessary.
Next, if you're going to run Persecutor you can't just run 4 removal spells - you need ways to kill your own persecutor:
1. At the very least I wouldn't run without at least 2 maindeck sacrifice spells - either edict's or Gatekeeper of Malakir, this will help against all of the decks that are cheating creatures into play, and have the nice side effect of being relevant in every game because of persecutor.
2. I also have a tendancy to lean towards a couple of vindicates, but that's a matter of taste. Many people consider vindicates little more than a 3 cmc creature removal spell (which it is most of the time), and if this is the case for you, and you see a lot of aggro, I wouldn't hesitate to run Path to Exile instead of vindicate. However, if you see a lot of combo or control, I'd run Vindicate.
3. Also, Instead of Inquistion of Kozilek I'd run Cabal Therapy. Even if you don't know what people are playing, you have at least 6 maindeck spells that look at people's hand, and out of the board you have extirpate to look at their whole deck...you can figure out how to use therapy.
Lastly - Top, 21 lands, and what's left of the flex spots. I'm not crazy about top, it's very "control" for my taste. Against a good 75%* of our matchups we want speed, not control - especially if you're going to go light on the removal spells. Personally, I'd run 4 Dark Ritual in your list. If nothing else, you can go Ritual, thoughtsieze, Hymn or Ritual, Thoughtsieze, Bob on turn one and just win through card advantage. Against Aggro, a first turn Nighthawk can be pretty devestating too. And, of course, a second turn Persecutor is what we all want to see. However, the bigest upside (IMHO) of running Dark Ritual is that it allows easier casting of Gatekeeper of Malakir. Don't underestimate Gatekeeper - he enables the use of Persecutor AND enables Stoneforge because he's a bear that can carry a sword. Plus he offers A TON of delay against aggro decks that are trying to push through early damage to keep bob off-line. He's a great card that really makes a lot of the deck possible IMHO.
Personally, I'd go to 20 land, ditch tops, and use one of the remaining flex spots to go to 4 rituals. If you do this though, just keep in mind that Sculler and Vindicate will become slightly less playable as your deck leans more twords mono-black. So, trimming scullers for mono-black discard makes more sense and utilizing mono-black removal (like go for the throat) may become a better option than path or vindicate.
This is just my suggestion - but I think at a minimum you need to up your removal count if you're going to run Persecutor.
Also, in response to going to 2 Jittes...Jitte is slow. Sometimes we need jitte to clear the board of Hierarchs or 1 toughness guys, and sometimes we need the lifegain - but generally we just want our guys to be bigger and swinging. There are times I look for Jitte, but I find SoFI to be my equipment of choice in 90%* of matchups. Also, if you run vindicates, seeing your opponent's Jitte's won't bother you so much, since you have an answer for them other than going to get your own Jitte.
*note, all percentages are fabricated...lol
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Hey all, go here:
http://mtgsalvation.com/new-phyrexia-spoiler.html
Now read Puresteel Paladin...and tell me that isn't a good reason to play 4x Aether Vial, Tidehollow Sculler, and Stoneforge Mystic?
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
well, I've said for some time already that if the Sword of War and Peace is even half-way decent that there may be a need to up the equipment counts and SFM's in the deck. Personally, I'm not sure the Equipment.dec with the paladin is even going to have black in it...but I'm waiting for everything else to be spoiled and for these cards to be confirmed first. however, he does seem very playable with Vial, Rovoker, and Mystic in legacy at the very least.
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
I would say he could make Mystic even BETTER. Honestly, Mystic is a powerful card but can't carry a deck on it's own. Think about this:
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Puresteel Paladin
4x Dark Confidant
3x Vampire Nighthawk
2x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Aether Vial
4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Vindicate
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of War and Peace
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Argentum Armor
4x Wasteland
4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
5x Plains
4x Swamp
You have a ton of 2cmc dudes (exactly what you want with Aether Vial) with Nighthawk holding up the high end of the curve and Wasteland/Thoughtseize/Aether Vial giving your early game a great setup. Argentum Armor becomes playable...when the play cost is 1W, tap Mystic and the equip cost becomes 0.
Just some thoughts...Quest for the Holy Relic (equipment.dec) may be a better place for him, but I see him as a bear that produces card advantage, ESPECIALLY when you can Vial him in at your opponent's end step and then drop some absurd equipment and attach it for free and start the pain train rolling.
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
firstable, thanks for your feedback bokwinkle.
ok, i will take your choices and edit my deck.
current deck list:
20 Lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
5 Swamp
3 Plains
2 Artifacts:
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
18 Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
8 Instants:
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Dark Ritual
12 Sorceries:
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Innocent Blood
15 Sideboard:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Tariff
4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
2 Perish
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Ok so here's a list just to brainstorm a few of the synergies that have come up in this thread:
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Retribution of the Meek
4 Dark Ritual
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mirran Crusader
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Serra Avenger
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scrubland
5 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
Sideboard
3 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Perish
2 Null Rod
This is totally untested, not even goldfished, so it might be a total pile.
I've taken out the SFM package because she isn't good on her own, and running retribution means swords aren't as useful, unless you're going to run a bunch of 1x creatures.
Ritual allows for some explosive starts, and can be dumped into shade in the late game, but I could see removing both to go for a slower, more control-based strategy, maybe swapping in 3x Vindicate, 1x Retribution, 4x Sculler.
Factories could be replaced with Wasteland, but I feel like Waste on it's own without any other mana-denial to back it up is too easy for most decks to recover from. Maybe 1x Volrath's Stronghold could be swapped for one of the Factories, just to make sure annoying things like Bob and Canonist stick around.
Revoker is in the side instead of the main, because I can see him naming Vial 60% of the time, so against tribal you could swap him for Vials and Swap E. Plagues for Canonists/Retribution. Retribution seems like it would still be worth having against Merfolk, but Goblins lists aren't playing many lords these days. Null Rods could easily be Jittes depending on how much tribal you expect to see, but with artifact decks showing up more frequently and New Phyrexia yet to come out, I think Null Rod is a better choice going into an unknown meta.
I'm going to throw this guy together in Cockatrice when I get home, wouldn't mind doing some playtesting if anyone else uses that instead of MWS (if you haven't checked it out yet, you really should).
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
At a first glance, you made a few of fairly large mistakes with that list: Dark Ritual WITHOUT Vampire Nighthawk, lack of Revoker/Mom maindeck, and no way for your creatures to become big enough to compete with the other fatties in the format (SFM package.)
What that list does is focus on combo hate (Canonist) but also tries to abuse Nantuko Shade in a non-mono-black deck. Nantuko Shade is a mana sink that is easily dealt with, creating card DISADVANTAGE. How often will you have spare B to pump the guy? I'd rather have spare mana up for Vindicate/Swords/Mystic/equipment while I Vial in my bears.
I'm not sure about everyone else that posts here on the thread, but I feel the deck either needs Revoker or Mom maindeck, period. Vampire Nighthawk is probably the second best creature in the deck (Bob is first, and it's close between Mystic/Nighthawk, but Nighthawk brings more to the table with the initial investment).
I know you're thinking "I want to name Vial with Revoker, and that shuts off MY vials." Good play gets around that, and your Vial-ed in bears should be doing their job (Sculler, Bob, Mystic, Revoker) better than your opponent's. Thoughtsieze, Swords, and Vindicate should take care of the rest of the story. Let them Vial in their threats...and you play Revoker to negate those effects. If you feel it's neccessary to sideboard out your Vials for Revokers...you must be thinking fish/gobbo matchups (or the mirror.) Revoker may shut off Vial...but those 2 decks can still kick your ass without Vial. And Retribution of the Meek isn't all that great vs. gobbos/fish...really only zoo, new horizons, and SnT. In those matchups, Vial is your KEY PIECE to winning those matchups. SoFI and Jitte should be containing the gobbos/fish...so the idea of playing Vial without Revoker just seems silly to me.
Don't get me started on the fringe Vial decks (like Meathooks) matchups, because Crystalline Sliver will quite simply WRECK YOU, Vial or no Vial. Vial Affinity? They'll be dumping their hand as soon as they know YOU'RE using Vial...becuase if they are good players, they know you're just too damn slow to stop their intense tempo.
Just my thoughts...
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
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Originally Posted by
K1w1
firstable, thanks for your feedback bokwinkle..
No problem - feedback is why we're all here.
Now the only problem I see is that you're basically running my exact list...lol. This is good, because I have a lot of confidence in my list and I'd like more people to playtest it, but it's bad because I'm a legacy Newb and the deck is virtually untested in a real legacy environment.
I'm flattered that you so quickly took my suggestions to heart, but please realize they are just suggestions and I am by no means the authority on anything relating to Magic. So I guess what i'm saying is this - "test the hell out of it, it could still be wrong for you"
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Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
I would say he could make Mystic even BETTER. Honestly, Mystic is a powerful card but can't carry a deck on it's own....
You have a ton of 2cmc dudes (exactly what you want with Aether Vial) with Nighthawk holding up the high end of the curve and Wasteland/Thoughtseize/Aether Vial giving your early game a great setup. Argentum Armor becomes playable...when the play cost is 1W, tap Mystic and the equip cost becomes 0.
Just some thoughts...Quest for the Holy Relic (equipment.dec) may be a better place for him, but I see him as a bear that produces card advantage, ESPECIALLY when you can Vial him in at your opponent's end step and then drop some absurd equipment and attach it for free and start the pain train rolling.
I can also see him being totally worthless and win-more. lol. His card advantage requires you basically tapping out every turn to play equipment, that does nothing until you attach it. It could end up being very slow and very fragile. Then there's the added question of - "What are you going to draw with his ability in a deck that is built to abuse his ability? More equipment?" There might be a deck there, but I'm not on board yet - I'd have to test it a lot I think. Ultimately the viability of this deck still revolves around the quality of the equipment that's available, but the downside is that many other decks also have access to that same equipment.
Also, as a side note, IMHO nothing makes argentum armor Legacy playable...lol. There's just better stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dick Cheese
Ok so here's a list ..This is totally untested, not even goldfished, so it might be a total pile.
I've taken out the SFM package because she isn't good on her own, and running retribution means swords aren't as useful, unless you're going to run a bunch of 1x creatures.
Ritual allows for some explosive starts, and can be dumped into shade in the late game, but I could see removing both to go for a slower, more control-based strategy, maybe swapping in 3x Vindicate, 1x Retribution, 4x Sculler.....
My primary issue with this particular list is Dark Ritual in a deck that is so White heavy. I have an issue with Mirran Crusader and Serra Avenger in a deck with Dark Ritual - You'd have an easier time convincing me of Vampire Nighthawk and Stromgald Crusader. Also, pairing Vial with Ritual seems like too much accelleration to me. Generally, that much accelleration will limit both threats and answers, but testing will reveal more probably.
Also, you can definately run SfM with Retribution - you can equip SfM and/or you can run Jitte. I'm not saying that SfM should be your primary win-con with 3 maindeck retributions...but I'm saying that it's not a complete bomb-bo. Running 2 SfM and 2 Jitte is actually a pretty decent call in a lot of meta's.
Also, I have a hard time with maindeck Cannonist - it's largely dependant on meta, but it's generally useless against so many decks (anything that runs Vial, Control, NO, SneakShow, etc) whereas a similar hatebear (revoker) is available that is good against so much of the field (Anything that run's LED, Anything that runs Vial, KotR, Noble Hierarchs, Candelabra, etc). Again, largely dependant on meta, but my personal opinion is that Revoker is the pick.
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dick Cheese
I've taken out the SFM package because she isn't good on her own, and running retribution means swords aren't as useful, unless you're going to run a bunch of 1x creatures.
Retribution is still totally untested, so it might suck and get replaced with SFM, but it deals with anything running NO-Pro, Emrakul lists (minus shelldock), Tombstalker, reanimator, MUD, and Dreadnought. I think the real test is to see how often it hits KotR, Goyf, and Terravore.
I get your point about Shade in a non-monoblack deck, but without it, running Rituals and Canonists together just seems pointless, which is why I mentioned dropping both of them to go more control-based.
As for Nighthawk, after playing him in Deadguy since he came out, I'm just over the guy. He's easy to remove and doesn't put down a fast enough clock to make him a serious threat to most decks. He mostly just postpones an attack until they can find a Bolt/Path/Swords/Firespout/etc. Yes I've won a few games off him, but not as many as I've lost because he never amounted to more than chumping a Goyf. I like either of the Crusaders better, Mirran is far better on offense, and Phyrexian is far better on defense. I would consider switching to Phyrexian just to take better advantage of Ritual, or maybe even Hippie to help against control matchups.
What do you name with Revoker against Merfolk/Goblins if not Vial? I can see running it main since it is a body, but you could also argue that it's far more fragile than Pithing Needle, and you never see that maindecked.
My real concerns with a list like this are:
1. Can a bunch of 2/x's can really hold down the fort long enough to use Retribution?
2. Can ~ get there before an opponent can stabilize after Retribution?
3. Having a bunch of creatures that are easy to burn off with Firespout/Lavamancer/Volcanic Fallout
Having Hippie instead of Mirran Crusader helps with 2, but makes 1 and 3 worse, you get the opposite effect with Phyrexian Crusader.
One card I thought about trying to abuse in this list was Phylactery Lich, but he just begs to be 2-for-1'd, since everyone is going to be gunning for your Canonist/Vial anyway. He does get a lot better in multiples though.
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dick Cheese
What do you name with Revoker against Merfolk/Goblins if not Vial? I can see running it main since it is a body, but you could also argue that it's far more fragile than Pithing Needle, and you never see that maindecked.
i have had success naming Coralhelm Commander and Cursecatcher against 'folks and (see above) Gempalm Incinerator and Mogg Fanatic against gobbos. Llanowar/Fyndhorn elves, Priest of Titania... Lion's Eye Diamond? Moxen? its been pretty versatile for me.
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dick Cheese
One card I thought about trying to abuse in this list was
Phylactery Lich, but he just begs to be 2-for-1'd, since everyone is going to be gunning for your Canonist/Vial anyway. He does get a lot better in multiples though.
Easiest way would be with Darksteel Citidel, but it would cripple your mana base.
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Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)
Quote:
Now the only problem I see is that you're basically running my exact list...lol. This is good, because I have a lot of confidence in my list and I'd like more people to playtest it, but it's bad because I'm a legacy Newb and the deck is virtually untested in a real legacy environment.
I'm flattered that you so quickly took my suggestions to heart, but please realize they are just suggestions and I am by no means the authority on anything relating to Magic. So I guess what i'm saying is this - "test the hell out of it, it could still be wrong for you"
i couldnt know that im actually using your deck. lol.
Really? Dont think so. Ok, maybe you are new playing this format but i have to say that your arguments are just awesome!
Im reading all the posts in this thread every day and every time im reading yours im just with your opinion.
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"test the hell out of it, it could still be wrong for you"
I will test this deck in any case!
I just have to say thank you. Just like with you Mr. Safety
I love your discuss about this deck :-D
