For grabbing creatures out of the graveyard maybe Volrath's Stronghold? It's super slow but it sort of works with the Loam dredge plan and it's recurrable. Would be so great if only it added black mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emrakul503
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For grabbing creatures out of the graveyard maybe Volrath's Stronghold? It's super slow but it sort of works with the Loam dredge plan and it's recurrable. Would be so great if only it added black mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emrakul503
That card exists, it is called a Swamp =)Quote:
Originally Posted by filln
Urborg, Tomb Of Yawgmoth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo11ygrnreefer
So I played again last night went 3-1.
My overall record with the deck against burn is 0-3 and 2-6 in games. :-(
I currently play 1 chalice in the side and considering going up to 3.
What do you guys think?
I know it's a race but I seem to always be on the losing end of the race.
I don't like chalice in this matchup since gamble and crop rotation have alot of value and i'd rather not turn them off. Plus the scariest spell is price of progress, and they'll bring in smash to smithereens for your chalices anyways. I've brought in spheres before and didn't feel strongly either way about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by CovenantElite30
For a local meta where you're expecting burn, you could add 1x zuran orb in the sb (Hopefully it doesn't get smashed).
Its another line to gamble for if Fast witch or chasm loop aren't optimal.
Burn is a combo deck, you bring in extra depths if you have them to maximize the chances of an early kill.
Be careful about going into chasm lock, all it takes is one opening for burn to kill you at instant speed. you may not be able to exit the loop to swing with lage if your life total is too low so you need to keep some number of punishing fire in the deck to kill them with your chasm in play. Sulfuric vortex turns off grove, you'll need some number of enchantment destruction effects between Abrupt decay and Kgrip. Loaming will demolish your library so you need to close quickly with PF to avoid decking yourself. Speaking of decking: kill goblin guide on sight, even though chasm stops the damage the attack triggers add up and you'll have fewer turns to dredge to maintain chasm lock.
Mulligan aggressively and keep your fingers crossed that its good enough.
Other than that, there's not much else to say that Dice hasn't already said in the primer. Good Luck :wink:
Edit: all of your kgrips and AD should come in anyway. between eidolon, pyrostatic pillar, ensnaring bridge, pithing needle, and sulfuric vortex, there is no shortage of targets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djehuti
Thanks for the advice!
My current sideboard is 3 Bobs, 2 Sphere of Resistance, 2 Choke, 2 Krosan Grip, 1 Prime Time, 1 Karakas, 1 Dark Depths, 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Chalice of the Void, 1 Zuran Orb.
Against burn I brought in 3 Bobs, 2 Grip, 1 Depths, 1 Grudge, 1 Chalice, 1 Orb.
Maybe that is not the correct sideboard plan?
A couple of questions: I finally have time to play again and I see that people are adding black to the mix; does this open the viability of playing Cabal Pit? Also, how many Bobs is best to run, and would it be a good idea to run them mainboard, liek 4C Loam does?
I personally went 3-0 against three burns in a recent tournament I attended. I had 4 chalices sb, and casting it on turn 1 brought me a free victory! (I think 4 is too much however)
To my mind, apart from chalice, there are two plans that can lead to victory agians burn:
1°) Uber-fast Marit Lage.
2°) Assemble a chasm lock, and kill it with recurring punishing fires so that you never break the lock to attack with Marit Lage.
In any case, remember that making a token will prevent you from taking 4 damage in case of a PoP
Before Lands players remembered that Punishing Fire existed we used Cabal Pit. Punishing Fire is more versatile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Nobeard
But why do the Jund Lands run Molten Vortex over P-Fire? Every match I'm seeing now with black is using the enchantment instead of the Fire. Is it because it comes down earlier and is a permanent instead of an instant?Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
Has some benefits over P-Fire, besides the ones you mentioned it's also slightly less graveyard dependent, less clunky to recur, and perhaps more importantly allows you to cut Grove of the Burnwillows to free up space. That being said, some players have already gone back to the Grove/P-Fire combo even in the black splash builds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Nobeard
Grip, Depths, and orb are solid.Quote:
Originally Posted by CovenantElite30
Chalice is a wash for me, feel free to keep it in if you like it.
Without knowing an opponent's sideboard plan, you can keep ancient grudge out game 2. If you see artifacts that need to be answered and still win G2, you can bring it in G3.
Bob is weird since he makes you lose life but he can eat an attack or a removal spell. I'd also opt not to play him because the black color requirement may force you to fetch a bayou instead of basic forest which could be the 2 damage from price of progress that kills you.
Why did they go back? And would running both be an option to possibly cut down on the hate of both? Or would it reduce the chances of getting either combo online?Quote:
Originally Posted by filln
I went back. In short I run a single Bayou main and have access to Black in the side. I feel like if your going to run Black, that's the way to do it.
My side right now is:
3 Decay
2 Grip
2 Dark Confident
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sphere of Resistance
I find its decent, sadly I have no space for Karakas. That of late has not been an issue locally.
I recently went X-2 at scg mke. I played stock rg main deck list. Karakas main, bog main. No Urborg, no rift stone portal. Never missed the cards. Deck felt pretty good. One of my losses involved getting turn one comboed, and then mulling into oblivion. The other involved not finding a mana source over 4 turns with diamond in hand.
I sb'd:
4 cotv (amazing)
3 sphere of resistence (ok)
1 molten vortex (good)
3 Krosan grip (amazing, wouldn't play less)
2 Pithing needle (good, wouldn't cut it)
2 warping wail (basically just another removal spell, high hopes but not thrilled with it)
I wouldn't really consider replacing p fire with vortex, simply because fow and daze are real cards, and p fire doesn't care about them. I would consider playing a second vortext in the sb though.
I'm all about the 4 cotv sb. If you don't play it turn one against storm ur dead or it's getting duressed. 2 balls help buy you time against storm, but you need something else going on. Against burn the cotv comes in, but it often gets smashed to smithereens. They also have a variety of casting costs honestly. I just like to try and close that match out asap.
I've played al lt of miracles for years personally, and relied on that experience to snake out a win in that match up. Needle is great there if you wanted more I'd sb some chokes or more needles. Awkward I know.
Everyone probably already knows this who posts here regularly. But the most important skill for playing the deck is knowing when to stop dredging Loam and just draw off the top.
Was looking at black lists, and I'm just not sold yet.
What does your manabase look like? I don't feel comfortable without Karakas in the SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Hi GB, and welcome! Congrats on your result. I highlighted your remark, because it is rarely brought up, and yet is indeed an important aspect of playing this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Beast
What are you bouncing with Karakas honestly? Most legendary creatures you could bounce either die to punishing fire (Thalia, Clique, Venser) or the damage is already done (again Clique but Griselbrand as well), if you're expecting reanimator, it's alright, but Tidespout Tyrant is still the problem in that MU (and Bog is generally better anyways).Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
Well, it has won me MU's by doing exactly what you describe. I know it is not as good as it used to be, and maybe I should drop it. Call me old-fashioned, because I know I am :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
I've been tinkering on several Black Splash-builds, with one Bayou main. Still, I feel like I want a second Bayou, but I have come to the conclusion that it would mean diluting the manabase too much. Perhaps Karakas should make room for a Bayou in the SB.
Can someone post The standard rgb list?
When we have one, I will. Right now there is no hard and fast list.
Will post my 60 when I am free.
Many pages ago I posted a list of legendary creatures we want to bounce game 1. The opportunity cost is minimal. Slow down, take your time. You don't need 4 Dark Depths or 4 Crop Rotations.
I never felt comfortable with Vortex, so I 'went back' to PuFi. I laugh in the face of counters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Nobeard
I think we actually need four CR. It can get us the utility land we need, including Karakas. Four DD would be nice, but isn't that necessary, I agree, especially when we are packing four CR.Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
Lets examine that list for a momentQuote:
Originally Posted by barcode
In the case of Thalia, Venser and Vendilion Clique, your answer to all 3 is simply killing them with punishing fire, Two of these are value creatures with flash that your opponent actually wants you to bounce (In the case of Clique, I would argue bouncing it would be a horribly bad idea for the Lands player), and Thalia is usually accompanied by AEther Vial (effectively giving her flash). Mangara is basically not played anymore, and even so, the combo for it is so slow and resource intensive that it should be a non-factor in any game you play against D&T, it's likely fair to say that games with Mangara being relevant, are games that you are not going to win. With Griselbrand, Karakas bouncing it is not enough, the damage has been done, they've drawn 7 cards. It should be nothing for them to find and put into play their Karakas answer at that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
With Emrakul and Marit Lage, Karakas is a fine answer there, but with Sneak//Show being such a small part of the meta now, I doubt we're seeing too many Emrakuls now, and how often do you reasonably expect to see the mirror? Going by MTG Goldfish and the numbers used in the DTB forum, it's pretty reasonable to expect to see it once in a tournament, but in my experience, the mirror is mostly about getting the Loam engine going and building a bigger board presence (and it's easily answered with port and wasteland as well)
Given Crop Rotation is your best card for finding any one-ofs immediately, which you would need to do in the MUs where you actually want to Karakas bounce something, why would you cut it, it would stand to reason that Karakas gets worse with fewer crop rotations.
Aah, but SnT is still a deck played in my meta, and the mirror isn't uncommon as well, perhaps packing Karakas is a meta-call? Still, in an unknown meta I would pack Karakas.
What Dice_Box said about no standard list, but here is the one I play:Quote:
Originally Posted by fluuu
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Crop Rotation
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
4 Exploration
4 Mox Diamond
SIDEBOARD
3 Dark Confidant
1 Dark Depths
1 Duress
1 Karakas
2 Krosan Grip
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Thoughtseize
1 Zuran Orb
The Thorns will be Spheres someday, and the Duress may become a 3rd Thorn/Sphere soon. I do like the idea of PrimeTime, and for the sake of additional data, may test with him soon. I played Vortex for a bit, but was dredging them so often that I made the switch back and have not regretted it. I think there are merits to both, but unlessI had a Vortex in my opening hand, I never ended up playing with it. Where as PFire shows up when it is useful all of the time. If I went back to RG, I would consider a split of some kind.
In an unknown meta, I'd want the leanest main deck possible. If any of my individual opponents are just as likely to tendrils me, Counterbalance lock me out, Delver me or play an AEther Vial, I'd want to be trying to make the 20/20 as quickly as possible. They can't kill you if they're dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
My list isn't too far off, biggest difference in the main is +1 Bayou, +1 Crop Rotation, -1 Urborg, -1 Tranquil Thicket. Can I ask your thoughts on playing Urborg vs. a second Bayou? I've wanted to test Urborg for a while but haven't gotten around to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emrakul503
For reference this was my main deck. Nothing special or unique.
Rg lands
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
3 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
1 Manabond
4 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fire
I really like the the idea of having Maze of Ith, Dark Depths or Tabernacle tapping for mana at some point if I needed it. Being able to tap DD, Urborg and Stage to and Pfire or whatever has been relevant for me. I have never tutored for Urborg, but every time I have had it in my opening hand, it has been great.Quote:
Originally Posted by filln
All true words, let's just agree to disagree. I'm not saying I will cling on Karakas forever, but it has served me well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
Full list as it is in front of me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
4 Mox
4 Crop
4 Gamble
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Punishing Fire
4 Loam
1 Forest
1 Bayou
2 Taiga
3 Fetch
1 Bog
1 Chasm
1 Tabernacle
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Maze of Ith
3 Depths
4 Stage
4 Grove
4 Port
4 Waste
Side:
3 Decay
2 Grip
2 Dark Confidant
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sphere of Resistance
In short, I do not have a ton of Black but I feel I have yet to have it be a major issue. I do not at this moment miss Chalice but at the same time, combo has somewhat vanished in my Local Meta and I am not often under large amounts of early pressure. If I was going into an event blind I would cut a Decay, add in a second Utility land (Karakas or Bog maybe) and I would cut the 2 Bonds. In place of the Bonds I would add a Fetch and free slot in which Bond, Decay, Depths or Urborg would occupy.
I am not sure this is better than the straight R/G build but I have not yet had any issues with it. I did beat to death an infect player with a Bob while firing his board clean. Bob is really good when you have an average CMC around .46
Not that my input is too valuable but I have never had an instance where Karakas did any good for me. My buddy plays SnT and reanimator and tinfins and i pretty much lose immediately or he Shows/sneaks griselbrand.
All data is helpful, so thanks for contributing.Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosjace
Edit: I am wrong and have nothing to contribute on the topic of Karakas :-p
Most useful card in the mirror is Exploration/Manabond not Karakas.
Anyone saying otherwise is trying to sell you something. Next most important is Forest and then Bojuka Bog.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Followed by Ghost Quarter and Wasteland - not just to kill your opponent's green sources, but also to loop your Bog.Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
I'm going to be testing the black splash (white is good, but losing game 1 to turn 1 top, turn 2 counterblance is not good). Your list is a good start! I will cut a Manabond for Karakas to have access to that card main deck. I'll also cut a Crop Rotation for the 4th fetch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I am not really sold on Karakas any more. I mean I will not go out and sell my copy, but I am not sure it really has a home in my deck any more. It might just be my local meta that has warped my views but I very rarely use it for much of anything. I have played against the mirror twice without it and not missed it either time. (Having main Bog really is what I depended on)
Karakas is the cleanup crew. My plan is to make sure there is no party. If the other guy can not party, I do not need to clean.
What are the main-reasons for not playing Abrupt Decay main?
It's unnecessary. Sure, it's useful, but I like to play a bit like Dredge. You play game one with your game plan as streamlined as you can make it, then game two, after you side out the Manabonds and what not, you can play a more hateful game.
I do like upping the sideboard slots dedicated to hating out Moon and other shit though. Since our own way to get one outside of a natural draw is to literally Gamble for it, having more to draw as the deck becomes a bigger target is handy. I am not sure a card with a double colour cost should be that card, not when we can't make one of those without a Moxen under a Moon, but I do think it's a start.
Also, Counterbalance can die in a fucking hole. Moon and Counterbalance. You know, just Miracles in general... As I type that, I like Decay just that little bit more.