Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
This was why I had such a big problem with the Pod banning in Modern. Had WotC gave a different reason other than "diversity", then I would have been okay with it. A good deck does well, and a deck that does well is going to be played more. Just because 5 people want to play a bad deck (Zoo) doesn't mean its the fault of the good deck.
'Bad deck' and 'good deck' are dependent on context, they don't exist in the abstract. Wizards could unban pod but also unban top, treasure cruise and skullclamp (or whatever, pick some cards that would create busted modern decks) and suddenly pod is not 'a good deck'.
Modern is in a very healthy place right now - maybe the healthiest it's ever been - because there really is no clear best / most consistent deck with pod gone. Even something like zoo is not 'a bad deck' now. Legacy players should be jealous of the modern meta at the moment.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
'Bad deck' and 'good deck' are dependent on context, they don't exist in the abstract. Wizards could unban pod but also unban top, treasure cruise and skullclamp (or whatever, pick some cards that would create busted modern decks) and suddenly pod is not 'a good deck'.
Modern is in a very healthy place right now - maybe the healthiest it's ever been - because there really is no clear best / most consistent deck with pod gone. Even something like zoo is not 'a bad deck' now. Legacy players should be jealous of the modern meta at the moment.
I AM jealous of the Modern meta. There's no single shell dominating the format, and I've had completely different play experiences with the last few decks I have played.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Admiral_Arzar
I AM jealous of the Modern meta. There's no single shell dominating the format, and I've had completely different play experiences with the last few decks I have played.
You shouldn't be jealous. Modern is actually a diceroll format, and with the absence of cards like CANTRIP CARTEL to make reactive decks stronger, it will always be a diceroll format.
Don't let the flavor-of-the-week combo decks fool you into believing that the format is healthy.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Kanti
Why would the Folk' ever drop Caverns and Wastelands?
Because Brainstorm and buddies are insanely good.
It's a tongue-in-cheek point, because doing that would completely change the character of the deck from aggro to tempo and by then you might as well just play Delver of some sort.
However, I wouldn't be surprised if someone tried it to be weird/different and ended up placing. Even just looking at this deck:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17542&iddeck=132027
You could probably find enough cuts (starting with 3x chalice) for 4 Brainstorm and some amount of Ponder, drop in blue fetches, and do just fine. What you lose in STP/Bolt protection you gain in being able to switch out parts you don't need like redundant Vials or counters for more creatures and overwhelm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Admiral_Arzar
I AM jealous of the Modern meta. There's no single shell dominating the format, and I've had completely different play experiences with the last few decks I have played.
My interest in Modern spiked recently when I found the Suicide Zoo deck. That deck seems like a blast. A GP Lille trial winner ported it to Legacy:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17541&iddeck=131994
Modern has good and bad points though. Games tend to be not that interactive, since there's a lot of aggressive decks and combo decks, or even prison-y decks like Top Control, Tron (because who can beat Karn/Ugin on board) and Blood Moon decks. In fact, despite the ravings that it's a "midrange format," there really is only one viable midrange shell because Tarmogoyf and Abrupt Decay are so much better than other threats/answers in the format.
However, I do think that's changing, since there's a lot of little synergies or angles of attack that can be explored. There's more play there, since you don't come up with an engine/synergy like in legacy and realize "this is just worse than playing Brainstorm + fetches + goodstuff."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
You shouldn't be jealous. Modern is actually a diceroll format, and with the absence of cards like CANTRIP CARTEL to make reactive decks stronger, it will always be a diceroll format.
Don't let the flavor-of-the-week combo decks fool you into believing that the format is healthy.
Twin, especially postboard, is actually quite reactive. It's both the best combo deck and the best control deck, sort of like Miracles in Legacy.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
The problem with Modern is that, because there is no "police" (in the form of Wasteland and Force of Will) in the format, any wacky combo deck can sprout up out of nowhere and take people by surprise. If you like this sort of element of randomness, then Modern is probably your format, but I prefer a more solidified, exclusionary metagame where your pillars of the format trump anything random that might come along.
Now that doesn't necessarily impute an acceptance of "Brainstorm+Ponder+Force above all", because I feel that the format is best when things like Goblins and Zoo are also viable. But I don't want Legacy just to be Modern with it's 50,000 random silly combo decks and no form or structure. That's why Wasteland and Force of Will should never be banned - they provide enough "policing" that Legacy does not degenerate into chaotic randomness like Modern has. But on the other hand, blue is probably too strong in Legacy right now, so it would be prudent to ban 1-2 strong (non-Brainstorm, non-Force) cards such as Sensei's Divining Top, or Dig Through Time.
Ideally, I think, you want to strike the perfect balance between "known, tier pillars" of the format and "wide swath of random, viable decks". Legacy has swung a bit too far toward the former pole, while Modern has swung too far toward the latter pole. Prior to Dig Through Time and maybe Terminus, I think Legacy was very solidly situated in the middle of that continuum. So a return to Legacy of a few years ago might be the prudent path to take.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
You shouldn't be jealous. Modern is actually a diceroll format, and with the absence of cards like CANTRIP CARTEL to make reactive decks stronger, it will always be a diceroll format.
Don't let the flavor-of-the-week combo decks fool you into believing that the format is healthy.
Are you serious? The number of games that are *literally* decided with a diceroll in legacy is considerably higher than modern. Modern doesn't have stifle, daze and decks with regular t1 or t2 kills (which are regulated by a banlist rather than forcing everyone to pack force of wills.)
There are plenty of actual criticisms for the format (can be very sb dependent, has some obnoxious decks that prey on fair metas like tron and bogles, there's no incentive to play pure control since you just play the same counterspells as everyone else w/ a worse win con) - 'diceroll' isn't one of them.
In the big picture, modern appears to be going in a positive direction and legacy isn't - and this is completely due to wizards being willing to actively use the banlist in modern. I think the legacy community is probably too conservative to accept the kinds of extreme bans (brainstorm, delver) that could make a dozen new decks viable overnight. But it's not too late for DTT.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
Are you serious? The number of games that are *literally* decided with a diceroll in legacy is considerably higher than modern. Modern doesn't have stifle, daze and decks with regular t1 or t2 kills (which are regulated by a banlist rather than forcing everyone to pack force of wills.)
There are plenty of actual criticisms for the format (can be very sb dependent, has some obnoxious decks that prey on fair metas like tron and bogles, there's no incentive to play pure control since you just play the same counterspells as everyone else w/ a worse win con) - 'diceroll' isn't one of them.
In the big picture, modern appears to be going in a positive direction and legacy isn't - and this is completely due to wizards being willing to actively use the banlist in modern. I think the legacy community is probably too conservative to accept the kinds of extreme bans (brainstorm, delver) that could make a dozen new decks viable overnight. But it's not too late for DTT.
This is spot-on. As somebody who plays both Legacy and Modern regularly nowadays, I'm much less concerned about losing the roll in Modern because everything is slower and the scariest turn one play is probably Thoughtseize. In Legacy being on the draw against a Delver or Deathrite with Daze backup is awful. Facing Chalice on the first turn when on the draw is often a game loss, and you can legit get combo'd on turn one vs. Storm/Sneak/Reanimator.
The ban policy in Modern has caused a lot of problems and angst over the years, but it's finally reached a point where the format is becoming interesting. It's not perfect as some archetypes are still under-represented, but the "good decks" bracket (Tier 1-2) in Modern is FAR more diverse than in Legacy. Recent printings (primarily in blue but also certain cards that are good in blue shells like Griselbrand/Terminus) have dramatically widened the gap between "good decks" and fringe decks/brews in Legacy making it much harder to compete.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
The problem with Modern is that, because there is no "police" (in the form of Wasteland and Force of Will) in the format, any wacky combo deck can sprout up out of nowhere and take people by surprise. If you like this sort of element of randomness, then Modern is probably your format, but I prefer a more solidified, exclusionary metagame where your pillars of the format trump anything random that might come along.
This is honestly not a super big issue in modern - most modern combo decks that are actually capable of going far in a tournament are known entities already, just maybe not to casual players. The actually-good combo decks (goryo's, bloom) are still inconsistent enough that they're not winning tournaments right and left, and often can't beat a single piece of disruption. And jankier combo decks lose to fair decks curving out or burn - who needs force of will?
Re: All B/R update speculation.
The problem with Modern (as far as diversity goes) is the relative lack of decks which are not focused on creatures or the combat step. Anybody who plays Legacy but is jealous of the Modern meta should probably make a permanent move.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
Don't let the door hit you on the way out....
I love you too brother!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Also, from all appearances you came here for this thread. Your not going to get much from the site if you never branch out...
I come to Legacy discussion boards for a lot of reasons, but its true I am particularly interested in format health discussions.
Ironically, my experiences in this thread have discouraged me from branching out! I was expecting The Source to be a high level of intellectual discussion, but the posts here are worse than Salvation. Not what I expected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Also, I debate that it's not sound logic. You see Lands day two a large amount of the time in low numbers, then top 8. You can see the amount played vs how many reach the top 8/16. The numbers are there. It is a sound argument to make. Strong decks make it to the top. Lands is played in small numbers and still does better than Pox, Goblins, Nic Fit, insert other pet deck here.
This tells us one thing:
Those deck's are played less than Lands and/or they are not as strong. Nothing more, nothing less.
Note that a deck can be well positioned without being nearly as strong as Lands (unless we adopt circular reasoning and conclude that Lands top8 record is a reflection of its power).
But its clear I'm wasting my breath. If you can't acknowlegde that a deck's top8 record is in any way shape or form affected by the number of players running it, obviously you see only what you want to see. Math and logic be damned.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
The problem with Modern (as far as diversity goes) is the relative lack of decks which are not focused on creatures or the combat step. Anybody who plays Legacy but is jealous of the Modern meta should probably make a permanent move.
Ironically, my experiences in this thread have discouraged me from branching out! I was expecting The Source to be a high level of intellectual discussion, but the posts here are worse than Salvation. Not what I expected.
This is pretty fucking rich coming from one of the single worst posters on this forum. If it's that bad here just go back to Salvation, you will not be missed. Not to mention there's only one (maybe 2) good Legacy decks that don't generally win the game using the combat step, so I have no idea what you're trying to say in that first claim.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
If you can't acknowlegde that a deck's top8 record is in any way shape or form affected by the number of players running it, obviously you see only what you want to see. Math and logic be damned.
The more people running a deck, the more likely it is to see a Top 8 placement. I agree with this, I understand it. What I am saying though is that the strongest decks have, over a long long long period of time shown themselves to rise to the top. The strongest rise. Lands, a strong deck, has risen. It is underplayed due to in part, one card being hard to acquire (There are less copies off Tab then there are Lotus) but proven to, though it's finishes shown itself strong. Less played, strong finishes. Not circular logic, proven by stats.
Now, for the other top 8 decks. Not everyone is playing follow the leader but are you really going to tell me that a deck like Goblins is being held down by a small number of people playing it? I can tell you it has its hard core base, but is it people not playing it or is it people testing it and finding out its crap now? Is it the people like me who played it for 7 FUCKING YEARS and love it to death not trying hard enough to make it work or is it just not good? What about those that love Enchantress? Good god some of those players when they foil out their decks, most wonderful things to see. Are they not trying hard enough? Are people not testing it and seeing how powerful Enchantress is or is it just, perhaps, that it is not very strong?
Is it that people are just playing follow the leader or is it that these decks are dumped in favor of other, stronger and thus more dominant strategies? I can not tell. As someone that spent the last year he played Goblins holding onto a dying deck, I can say I did not want to leave it, it just was not very good. Everything you want to do with that deck, DnT does better now. Might as well move onto that. Hey look, DnT is really good. Is it just follow the leader? I think it's more to do with people moving on from one old dead deck to a new one. DnT is getting more top 8 finishes than Goblins? Perhaps that is because it is a blantely better deck. Just a thought.
So yes, a deck played more is going to reach the top more. A deck is also played more because, cost aside, it's better than what came before. It supersedes it, the format moves on. More printings, newer cards, life goes on. The top 8 though shows this change. More people play a deck because it is better than the others. Unless artificially limited, the stronger decks rise. Lest we remember that 5 years ago, Karakas was a third of it's current cost. I am guessing the rise in price has come with a rise in demand because DnT is such a bad deck yet people still for some reason, push it to the top tables.
Thus to the final point. Over time, the decks that do objectively better do one of two things, filter well or punish those that do. Blue has been king of filter, Jund was a great deck for a little while until people figured out it was a better deck if you traded Red for Blue. Jund these days sees near on no play in Top 8's. TA on the other hand, well check the DTB section. Is this because Jund is a bad deck or because more people moved on from playing it? Here, let me point you to a fine day for the Jund players. Did the deck fall away from the top tables because it is unplayed or was it this point in history that it fell to the stronger deck? Or was everyone just playing follow the leader?
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maharis
Twin, especially postboard, is actually quite reactive. It's both the best combo deck and the best control deck, sort of like Miracles in Legacy.
That's the only deck that can play the reactive role. Control with a fatty finisher will never be viable in Modern because there's not enough cheap interaction. If you're not playing a deck in Modern that can combo off (and by combo I mean kill in a single turn if needed) then you're going to lose. That doesn't make for a fun format, constantly thinking, "Does my opponent have the combo? Am I just dead this turn?"
What it does do well, I'll admit, is act as a brewer's paradise, which is a welcome reprieve. Binder brews with half-decent cards can hold their own at FNMs.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
The problem with Modern (as far as diversity goes) is the relative lack of decks which are not focused on creatures or the combat step. Anybody who plays Legacy but is jealous of the Modern meta should probably make a permanent move.
Crazy fact - it's actually possible to play and enjoy multiple formats of magic.
It's totally true that modern is fairly creature/combat focused (and as such provides some dimensions legacy doesn't, like combat math and your life total 'mattering' more esp w/ shockland-life decisions.) If someone wants their magic games to play out like storm or lands games, then they're in the wrong format.
Modern has been in a bad place in previous metas (jund w/ drs, treasure cruise, etc.) and it's one day going to reach a bad place again. They fixed it in previous meta and hopefully they'll fix it again. I honestly can't see how anyone can watch the rise of omni - a deck that someone w/ no knowledge of legacy could pilot decently w/ a 10 min tutorial - and not realize that legacy's in a pretty bad place right now.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
The problem with Modern is that, because there is no "police" (in the form of Wasteland and Force of Will) in the format, any wacky combo deck can sprout up out of nowhere and take people by surprise. If you like this sort of element of randomness, then Modern is probably your format, but I prefer a more solidified, exclusionary metagame where your pillars of the format trump anything random that might come along.
Now that doesn't necessarily impute an acceptance of "Brainstorm+Ponder+Force above all", because I feel that the format is best when things like Goblins and Zoo are also viable. But I don't want Legacy just to be Modern with it's 50,000 random silly combo decks and no form or structure. That's why Brainstorm and Force of Will should never be banned - they provide enough "policing" that Legacy does not degenerate into chaotic randomness like Modern has. But on the other hand, blue is probably too strong in Legacy right now, so it would be prudent to ban 1-2 strong (non-Brainstorm, non-Force) cards such as Sensei's Divining Top, or Dig Through Time.
Ideally, I think, you want to strike the perfect balance between "known, tier pillars" of the format and "wide swath of random, viable decks". Legacy has swung a bit too far toward the former pole, while Modern has swung too far toward the latter pole. Prior to Dig Through Time and maybe Terminus, I think Legacy was very solidly situated in the middle of that continuum. So a return to Legacy of a few years ago might be the prudent path to take.
Brainstorm is not a police card. It doesn't answer anything. While it can dig for answers, it can also dig for broken crap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
You shouldn't be jealous. Modern is actually a diceroll format, and with the absence of cards like CANTRIP CARTEL to make reactive decks stronger, it will always be a diceroll format.
Don't let the flavor-of-the-week combo decks fool you into believing that the format is healthy.
The cantrip cartel also makes blue-based combo stronger (see: first bolded part below)
There was a recent article on Wizards' homepage that was quite interesting to read. It explained why they don't want quality cantrips in Modern:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...ern-2015-05-22
Quote:
I've heard arguments that cards like Preordain are needed to make control work in Modern, but realistically, they would be much more powerful in combo decks than the control decks. This is one of the risks of having cheap card filtering, and one of the reasons we moved away from doing it in Standard. We print cards like Anticipate, but I don't think we will make another one-mana cantrip with card selection attached to it any time soon. It just doesn't incentivize the kinds of games we want to see play out.
Part of the reason that Ponder and Preordain are banned and Sleight of Hand and Serum Visions aren't, is that the latter two are just weaker and don't do as good of a job of letting people set up their draws quickly. The problem with putting too much card filtering in a format is that it drives too many of the games to play out exactly the same. There is some novelty in this, but I think it is less fun for a format that we want to be highly re-playable.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
As for being partially honest. Mate, if you want more respect around here branch out. [...] On the bright side, you have more respect than IBA does so take that for what it's worth.
Just taking the time of day to point of this is hands down the most hilarious post I've read on this site, ever.
As for the people that gave this site its reputation? Evidence indicates the vast majority of them packed up and moved the fuck on with their lives.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
I come to Legacy discussion boards for a lot of reasons, but its true I am particularly interested in format health discussions.
Ironically, my experiences in this thread have discouraged me from branching out! I was expecting The Source to be a high level of intellectual discussion, but the posts here are worse than Salvation. Not what I expected.
You picked the right city, but moved to the wrong hood. B/R spec thread is where all of the people whose ego is directly related to their love/hatred of blue and their post count are exiled so the rest of the forums aren't splattered with the type of pointless blathering that goes on here.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
I'm not entirely convinced the cantrip cartel is the problem here (besides dig through time of course). Cantrips by themselves don't do anything. The problem is what they find consistently. The format only escalated to the durdlefest it is now due to the following cards:
Eldrazi/Griselbrand
Delver of Secrets
Miracle mechanic
DTT is the new kid on the block but the format was pretty much the same before.
I'm not so sure if spending turns to manipulate your deck to find less good cards than the ones I mentioned would be worth it. I'm all for Ponder/Brainstorm decks to keep existing because they're fun cards to play with and represent an archetype. But when the power level of other cards increases then so do the cantrips. 1 mana wraths... X 4/4 flying instant speed, 2U oops I win, 3/2 flying for U, etc.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Blastoderm
I'm not entirely convinced the cantrip cartel is the problem here (besides dig through time of course). Cantrips by themselves don't do anything. The problem is what they find consistently. The format only escalated to the durdlefest it is now due to the following cards:
Eldrazi/Griselbrand
Delver of Secrets
Miracle mechanic
DTT is the new kid on the block but the format was pretty much the same before.
I'm not so sure if spending turns to manipulate your deck to find less good cards than the ones I mentioned would be worth it. I'm all for Ponder/Brainstorm decks to keep existing because they're fun cards to play with and represent an archetype. But when the power level of other cards increases then so do the cantrips. 1 mana wraths... X 4/4 flying instant speed, 2U oops I win, 3/2 flying for U, etc.
Exactly. Brainstorm and Ponder are fun to play with and test skill highly. They are hallmarks of this format for a long time.
You still want these cards to be very playable, but not overpowering. To make them less overpowering you have to lower the power level of their support cards. Banning Dig Through Time and Sensei's Divining Top would be a great start because then the onus is *solely* on Ponder/Brainstorm to make UWx control work, which would make it less strong - still viable, but not dominating.
Additionally, banning Dig Through Time would make Omnitell much more fair to deal with, or force people to play Sneak'n'Show again, which is, again, more easily handled because it requires legendary monsters and the combat step to operate.
Delver would still be powerful, but without Dig Through Time it would revert back to its triumvirate of BUG/RUG/UWR with pros and cons to playing each.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
Brainstorm is not a police card. It doesn't answer anything. While it can dig for answers, it can also dig for broken crap.
This. Force of Will and wasteland are policing cards. Brainstorm is not
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Brainstorm and Ponder are fun to play with ? this is just personal opinion, i hate playing them.
They test skill highly ? Well, maybe i can agree with ponder, but the fact that brainstorm is an instant makes it so that you cast it in response to anything you don't like, you don't need to make plans in advance with brainstorm
