Disk kills Propaganda, Back to Basics, and Morphling. That's reason enough for me to not run it. Depending on your build (stack vs. permanent based), you may want to run it; 6-8 less permanents generally will make it worth running.
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Disk kills Propaganda, Back to Basics, and Morphling. That's reason enough for me to not run it. Depending on your build (stack vs. permanent based), you may want to run it; 6-8 less permanents generally will make it worth running.
If you aren't looking for a timely kind of thing, I guess you could look at Plague Boiler. Although you aren't playing GB, plague boiler costs two mana less than disk and it hits planeswalkers to boot. Obv. one of my pet cards (I'm acquiring them at an alarming rate these days)
Wow. I didn't even know that card existed. Very interesting.
The GB is a problem, but the card looks like it could be playable in something, if not necessarily MUC.
Why not run Oblivion Stone if destroying all non-land permanents is your goal? Although, Disk hits everything Stone does, except for Planewalkers, and 99% of the Planeswalkers you'll find is in an already favorable matchup: Landstill.
+2 CA? I'll assume that's a typo; it's +1 CA at best, otherwise, it's just card parity. And +1 CA is not. impressive. at. all. It's not. Also, you need artifacts to make Thirst for Knowledge into +1 CA, which is significant.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG-Fan
If you want to be technical, Thirst for Knowledge does not suck. However, it - doesn't - cut it because it doesn't do enough. Drawing three cards is great, but discarding two, or even one, doesn't really bring you that much ahead of your opponent.
All of that for three mana? Fuhgettaboutit.
There aren't too many options in Legacy for instants that give you more than +1 CA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
A spell that gives you +1 CA @ 3 mana, instant speed, and digs 3 cards deeper into your deck is not that bad, all things considered.
It's not like Legacy has anything as good as Ancestrall Recall. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find any draw spell that gives you better than +1 CA at instant speed.
It's really one of the few decent options MUC has. You can play Vision, but that has significant weaknesses of its own. You can play Intuition-AK, but that also has unique weaknesses. What else is there in terms of pure +1 or more CA draw spells?Quote:
If you want to be technical, Thirst for Knowledge does not suck. However, it - doesn't - cut it because it doesn't do enough. Drawing three cards is great, but discarding two, or even one, doesn't really bring you that much ahead of your opponent.
All of that for three mana? Fuhgettaboutit.
Think Twice also gives you +1 CA. It costs 1U, so you can at least depend on it to find a land. Sensei's Divining Top is better than Thirst for Knowledge.
Ancestral Vision or Think Twice should be the supplementary card drawers over Thirst for Knowledge. Beyond that, Jace Beleren.
Think Twice only nets you +1CA after you've invested 5 mana into it. That's pretty bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
Ancestral Vision and TfK are the only two choices, imho. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.
Jace is only playable if your metagame is low on the burn/aggro.
It's not bad, because you don't have to spend all five mana at once. You can cast T2x and flashback at a convenient time. It's still better than Thirst for Knowledge because you need artifacts in your deck to make Thirst for Knowledge good. Not good. T2x doesn't require artifacts and you can cast it to find a land drop. Making land drops is critical in MUC.
There is no agree-to-disagree on whether Thirst for Knowledge makes the cut. It really doesn't. I stated my reasoning already. So far your reasoning is that there's nothing better. But I already stated a bunch of cards to run over Thirst for Knowledge, all of which aren't as limiting to deck design as Thirst for Knowledge. And don't cost 3 mana.
Just because you can spread 5 mana over the course of two turns doesn't make it remotely efficient. Think Twice is utter garbage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
Thirst isn't as limiting as you think. MUC already wants to run alot of artifacts for board control, filtering, graveyard hate, etc. All you need to do is grip a dead artifact in your hand, cast a Thirst, and you're golden. +1CA for 3 mana @ instant speed.
Thirst for Knowledge and Vision are the only two auxillary draw spells worth discussing for MUC. I think any smart player would agree.Quote:
There is no agree-to-disagree on whether Thirst for Knowledge makes the cut. It really doesn't. I stated my reasoning already. So far your reasoning is that there's nothing better. But I already stated a bunch of cards to run over Thirst for Knowledge, all of which aren't as limiting to deck design as Thirst for Knowledge. And don't cost 3 mana.
For digging/CA, Think Twice is more like a cantrip than a draw/dig. I would honestly rather play Impulse to dig for an answer or dig into a draw (Fact).
MUC has the trouble of stabilizing in the early game. Landstill does better and has trouble as well. Once you hit 4 lands in MUC, you should own with Shackles and CA. I would seriously consider playing TfK. Why is TfK better than Think Twice? It draws the same amount of cards (if discarding an artifact) but more importantly, it digs faster for an answer. In heavy artifact builds (I call it MUCart), TfK is a strong draw spell. If you're having trouble hitting your 3nd land drop, run 24 lands or just pack 2-3 SDT or 4 Impulse.
I have to agree with Shawon. Normally, MUC runs ~8 artefacts (shackles, keg/disk). Too few for TfK, and on top of that you rarely want to drop a shackles.
I know Tea. I was referring to a slightly heavier artifact build, which is my list ages of pages ago: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...postcount=1005
It's not the best list anymore in today's meta, but the card draw power is better for pre-FoF stabilizing. Even if you can't discard, you can always throw Call the Skybreaker in the yard for recursion later.
Most MUC lists run shackles and keg. Which of these is worth discarding to dig for land/generate card advantage? I realize your list is different and more artifact heavy, but as a whole, MUC is better served not discarding our key artifacts. Also, your assertion that "smart players agree" on the issue is obviously false just by reading this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG-Fan
To avoid repeating my points on the available draw for MUC, here is my discussion from earlier in the thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jthanatos
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23083Quote:
Originally Posted by jthanatos
This to me, is an ideal MUC list that can exploit TfK.
As long as you find some way to run 10+ artifacts and you also run Academy Ruins, TfK is a far superior draw spell to anything except Fact or Fiction or Ancestral Vision.
The fact remains that Think Twice is abysmal. The mana investment is too great for its reward. Hell, I'd rather run Whispers of the Muse over Think Twice.
No competitive MUC deck should ever be running Think Twice. As far as I'm concerned, MUC needs to run 3-4 Fact or Fiction, and then 4 filter effects of some kind, whether that is Brainstorm+Fetches, Ponder, or Impulse, and then 4 Auxiliary Draw - either Ancestral Vision, Thirst, or Jace.
My bad, I guess during my argument against Thirst for Knowledge, I gave you the impression that I was advocating Think Twice in MUC. I'm not. I never ran THink Twice when I played MUC. Only 4 FoF and 4 AV, no other drawers. I still think it's better than Thirst for Knowledge, but arguing about it seems kinda pointless when I myself wouldn't run either card.
Your deck that you hyperlinked further shows that Thirst for Knowledge is a situational card in designing the deck. That deck runs 11 artifacts. Not every MUC variant does. Actually, if you replaced those 3 MD Relics with blue cards, then Thirst for Knowledge becomes pretty bad I think, because in games, you'll have to choose between discarding a Disk or Shackles to net +1 CA with Thirst for Knowledge. That's not always good, and Academy Ruins doesn't do much to remedy that.
Thirst for Knowledge, for its cost, just isn't worth it in MUC, unless you run 8+ artifacts. It's only worth it in artifact heavy decks like Painter or in decks that like the discard (Goblin Welder).
So, lets see, 12 draw/filter, 12 artifacts, 24 lands, 4 force of will, 4counterspell/ spell snare, 2 win cons. Those remaining 2 cards better be pretty darn good. I don't know why you keep coming back to the mana investment. It gives us parity a turn sooner than TfK, and card advantage on the same turn, without costing us a discard. Even Impulse is better in this regard, as at least we don't have to lose a hand full of good stuff forever when digging for lands. What else are you doing with your mana early game? Either you counter a threat, or you draw cards. Think Twice gets the ball rolling sooner on getting to our key cards. To dismiss Think Twice out of hand, and to compare it to Whispers shows a startling lack of card evaluation.
I will, however, openly admit that in an artifact heavy build of MUC, such as Deep Blue, Thirst is a damn good card. The biggest difference is that most of these artifact heavy lists play very differently from the standard MUC archtype, and, as such, need to be evaluated differently.
You dig 1 card deep with each casting of Think Twice. That's not much better than a cantrip.Quote:
Originally Posted by jthanatos
One of the main reasons you even want to play additional draw spells is to dig for answers. Thirst will let you dig 3 cards deep at instant speed. This is often the difference between losing and winning if you desperately need a Spell Snare, or a Force of Will to counter a critical spell during your opponent's turn.
You're being too narrow minded and black/white here. There is no reason to run a deck composed almost entirely of artifacts to make use of Thirst. All you need is around 10-15 and your deck can run it adequately.Quote:
I will, however, openly admit that in an artifact heavy build of MUC, such as Deep Blue, Thirst is a damn good card. The biggest difference is that most of these artifact heavy lists play very differently from the standard MUC archtype, and, as such, need to be evaluated differently.
The most important thing to realize here, is that a 5 mana double cantrip is absolutely NOT worth running in any kind of control deck. So please stop bringing up the terrible Think Twice.
Actually, I don't get why you're arguing about Card Advantage per draw spell. There are just a couple that do anything good in terms of Card advantage <= 3 mana.
Jace Beleren: Possible draw 3.
Scrying Sheets: Dismissed as too much work to just draw lands, but it does draw alot of them over the course of the game.
Remora: WAY better in vintage, people don't play enough spells to make it worthwhile.
Predict:Given peoples high land count in MUC, I don't really get why this isn't played more.
Meditate:Could be useful.
Tfk: Debateable...
All of that was off a simple card search. My favorites have got to be predict, and a singleton jace.
Here's a list abusing them:
1 Academy Ruins
20 Island
1 Jace Beleren
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Rainbow Efreet
4 Force of Will
4 Rune Snag
1 Powder Keg
2 Disrupt
4 Counterspell
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Plague Boiler
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Back to Basics
3 Predict
Since you're running predict, brainstorm no longer needs fetches (if you ever did, why is deckcheck showing almost every t8 MUC deck having fetches?) becuase for 3 mana you get +1 Card advantage and kill a card you don't want to see off of brainstorm.
I think that's what he and I are trying to say. Thirst for Knowledge requires too many MD artifacts to be worth it. 10-15 is a lot of artifacts. I can't even imagine a blue deck with 15 artifacts unless it was Vintage, which is why Thirst for Knowledge is banned there.Quote:
You're being too narrow minded and black/white here. There is no reason to run a deck composed almost entirely of artifacts to make use of Thirst. All you need is around 10-15 and your deck can run it adequately.