[DTW] Bant Survival

@Waikiki: I think using Selkie against Merfolk might be good but only if you don't cut Path to Exile from the board because you will still need the additional removal. That said, the Selkie might actually be better than Survival because it does the same as Survival but quicker: provide CA. I'm more sceptical against CB-based decks. In case of the usual CB Bant it might be worth it because their threats match ours while we got protection from StP via Spellstutter Sprite. Not to mention broken openings of Hierarch into turn 2 Selkie drawing 2 additional cards on turn 3. But giving up what makes our lategame better than theirs, namely Survival? I feel at least uncomfortable with that. Especially against strategies that just dominate us without Survival (read: Natural Order).

Oh, and of course one has to sacrifice his graveyardremoval in the process. Generally speaking there are four kinds of sb cards:

- Anti Combo (MM, Spell Pierce, Canoninst, Teeg...)
- Anti Control (Krosan Grip, Kira, Llawan...Selkie?)
- Anti Creature (Path, Jitte, additional RWM...)
- Anti Graveyard (Faerie Macabree, Crypt, Relic, Grunt...)

Looking back at all the sideboards I played so far it was usually only possible to play enough cards in 3 of these 4 categories. So far I would recommend this for an unknown meta:

(playing 3 SSS and 3 Daze maindeck...giving Daze a try right now)

3x Pierce
1x Canonist
3x Grip
1x Kira
1x Llawan
3x Path
3x Faerie Macabre

Of course one will rarely play in an unknown meta. For example, when I play in southern Germany I'd definitly run the 4th Krosan Grip instead of a Faerie because Dreadstill is #1 DtB over here. I'd really like to try the Selkies, maybe I'll just cut down on 1 Grip (going back to 3) and 2 Faeries to try 3 Selkies. Still, I have doubts about boarding out Survival here, but I guess one can easily replace 3 Daze against CB.

By the way, did I mention why Ethersworn Canonist is good in matchups where you assume the control role? Against storm combo it's quite obvious but especially against Reanimator, dropping Canonist stops them from using Force of Will to back up their combo while you can easily just Force/Spellstutter their Reanimate/Exhume.

Yes I still run3 path to exile in the sideboard. What we could do vs the bant top decks is not to remove survival but to remove the Rhox war monks. Life gain isn't that important as in the aggro matchup. We can match their creatures and our late game becomes stronger and we gain more CA.

Hi all.

Just to introduce myself, I've been a long-time lurker of this thread so it's kind of nice to finally post something. I've been playing survivaldecks, mainly RGBSA, FEB and some BAnt Sur for the last 3-4 years until Iona was released and I switched over to Bant Sur full time.

@ danielcrocker: I've won two tournaments in Sweden and Denmark the last ½-2 months playing bant sur, one with 35 and the other with 25 players. The fact that we don't hear or read about a certain deck t8:ing is not the same thing as the deck not doing so.

@ Waikiki: I actually like the Selkie plan i theory but havn't had a chance to test it out yet. Have you tried it out in testing yet? A consideration on my behalf is that the CB decks in my area are very seldom straight bant. I see alot more variants of "supreme blue", some with NO, some without.. But almost all of them play Firespout and against that strategy Selkie seems strictly worse than RWM. You don't have that problem in your area?

Also, to be frank, latley I havn't had any real problem with Merfolk, which was always my (our) worst match-up. Might have been lucky the last two months but I've lost 1 out of 6 matches if I recall correctly, a few of them being very capable players. I recon I lost more games to them earlier on behalf of playing to restrictive, trying to be smart and play around their disruption which I have since stopped. Thay acctually have very little permission and they can't really handle Goyf or RWM once it hits the table.

Regards

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Originally Posted by Pellenik

Also, to be frank, latley I havn't had any real problem with Merfolk, which was always my (our) worst match-up. Might have been lucky the last two months but I've lost 1 out of 6 matches if I recall correctly, a few of them being very capable players. I recon I lost more games to them earlier on behalf of playing to restrictive, trying to be smart and play around their disruption which I have since stopped. Thay acctually have very little permission and they can't really handle Goyf or RWM once it hits the table.

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This. Mefolk used to be my #1 worst matchup, but somewhere along the way I figured out how to play against it and I haven't lost to it since. I think that's more a testament to the versatility of this deck than anything changing with Merfolk, though.

Also, I think a lot of the matchup hinges on forcing them to use up their disruption rather than playing around it. Just go ball-out and get in counter wars with them, etc, and then drop a Goyf or War Monk after you're sure they've blown their load.


Speaking of learning how to play against things - has anyone had any testing against the new Doomsday builds that pack Shelldock and Emrakul? This seems almost unwinnable. Like not even FoW and hatebears stop it. It's crazy.

I beat merfolk alot but I also get beaten alot by it. My only 3 losses in madrid where all due to merfolk. Where other tournaments I beaten 3 merfolk players and go straight to a T4 split.

If your meta has more supreme blue then bant counter top I'd suggest sticking Meddling mage maindeck over SSS. Where imo Selkie is still a bigger threat then RWM.

The selkie plan is pure theoretical. I came up with it this weekend and have not been able to test it out in a tournament so far.

@ Majikal: I've had the same experiance, keeping a threatintensive hand and just keep droping threats on to the table works well enough. I also board out the survivalpackage for paths, Llawan, jitte and krosan. Also, I'd like to thank you for the Emrakul sideboard plan, didn't see that one myself but it's absolutely fantastic.

I havn't even seen any lists for this "doomsday" deck you´re writing about, I get the general idea and it seems hard to face. I gueass you don't run gilded drake in your board. I guess 1-off gilded drake would be far from enough though. Of the top of my head it seems we must go for their cantrips first. Given that they use brainstorms and ponder etc to set up their shelldock isles. If you have a list for referance I´d be glad to take a look at it, a link perhaps..?

@ Waikiki: Actually I do run MM over SSS, havn't used them for a while. But it obv dependent of the meta I'm expecting, had a bit more combo and dredge here lately and then I tend to prefer MM. I agree that it's more powerful, absolutely, guess I'm a bit put of by it being more vanurable. We play weekly tournaments here so I'll be sure to test it out this tuesday. I've played them a bit in Selkie Strike in vintage but never in legacy, been wanting to for a while now though :)

Pellenik, they Doomsday into Shelldock Isle, Emrakul, and whatever else they need for the win. Gilded Drake will likely do nothing. Shelldock lets them cast Emrakul without paying it's mana cost, so they'll get the time walk (and he's uncounterable). You'll need to be able to sacrifice 6 permanents, then produce the 1:u: to cast the drake.

Went 5-0-1 for first place in a smallish local tournament tonight. Selkie seemed awesome when it actually hit play. It was actually extremely relevant in matches outside of blue decks, namely Stax. The card advantage is amazing! I think I want at least 3 in the sideboard, if not the full set. I'm not sure what I would cut though. Here's my current sideboard:

4x Spell Pierce
3x Faerie Macabre
2x Path to Exile
2x Cold-Eyed Selkie
1x Gilded Drake
1x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Anyway, here's the breakdown:

Round 1 - Mark playing my Doomsday list. Yikes! I had hoped this wouldn't happen. He destroys me game one through a FoW and a Meddling Mage. I didn't even stand a chance. Game 2 is better, as I see a Karakas in my opening grip along with a bunch of Meddling Mages. No countermagic in sight, but I have an out to Emrakul in hand that can't be Duressed away so I keep. Good call. He goes straight for the throat and Karakas gets there. G3 I get a lot of Spell Pierces and Meddling Mages and just shut down his tutors while countering Doomsdays. I think I've got this one figured out now. I just need more practice to be sure.

2-1, 2-1

Round 2 - Zach playing UW Tempo/Ninja thing. Normally he ruins me with Mother of Runes and Spellstutter Sprites, but game 1 he mulls to five and gets stuck on one land while I get a balls-to-the-wall aggro hand. He scoops and we go to sideboards. I bring in Selkies, more removal, and Kira, siding out Rhox War Monk because they're a little mana intensive, and I really don't need the life against this deck. Good call, apparently. He actually has a really good hand this game, but I draw removal for his Mothers, and a double-exalted Kira goes to town while his Mistblade Shinobi sadly watches. He finally gets Mother of Runes active and starts blocking with Spellstutter Sprite, seemingly stabilizing at 2 life, but I draw Cold-Eyed Selkie ftw.

2-0, 4-1

Round 3 - Jose playing Stax. He plays turn 1 Wasteland like a pro, so I fetch a basic and play Noble Hierarch. On his turn he plays Chalice for 1, and I look down at my now-useless hand full of Brainstorms and Ponder. Oh well, I start beating him down with Noble Hierarch, while he keeps drawing land and the wrong lock pieces. I pretend to be mana screwed and finally play my third land a few turns into the game, hoping to bait an Armageddon. He does, and I drop one of my sandbagged lands and play Survival, and very shortly after that I ruin him with Iona on white. G2 was very similar, only with more Spell Pierce and Selkie action.

2-0, 6-1

Round 4 - Shane playing Burn. Turn 3 Iona both games. Game, set, match.

2-0, 8-1

Top 4, Round 1 - Justin with Belcher. I mull into FoW, Rhox War Monk, Survival, two lands and Meddling mage. Nice hand! I play Misty Rainforest and pass the turn. He plays Lotus Petal so he doesn't have to discard and passes back to me. I drop Meddling Mage naming Empty the Warrens, and then I show him FoW and he scoops. Game 2 I mull to five and see bullshit. I am quite confident that I am going to lose, and he goes off turn one with Belcher. But to my great pleasure the second card he reveals is Taiga! Ouch, I'm at 18. I play Noble Hierarch and proceed to beat him to death with an exalted Tarmogoyf after blowing up his Belcher with a Pridemage. To be fair, this guy has the worst luck playing any kind of combo deck against me. He once whiffed on Ad Nauseam against me while he was at 20 life, literally finding zero mana sources and killing himself with 2-drops and the second Ad Nauseam.

2-0, 10-1

Top 4, Round 2 - Zach with Ninjas again. We draw and split the prize.

10-1-1

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Originally Posted by majikal

Speaking of learning how to play against things - has anyone had any testing against the new Doomsday builds that pack Shelldock and Emrakul? This seems almost unwinnable. Like not even FoW and hatebears stop it. It's crazy.

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I've only tested game one, but it's about 10/90 in their favor.

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Originally Posted by Kuma

I've only tested game one, but it's about 10/90 in their favor.

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Yeah, Game 1 seems almost like an auto-loss. :\

Games 2 and 3 are not quite as bad becaue you can bring in more hate. It's still heavily in their favor, however, and you have to make sure your hand contains at least 2 counterspells. If you can get Meddling Mage on Mystical Tutor, things get infinitely easier.

The problem that I'm seeing, though, is that the hate that is good against the Storm win is useless against the Shelldock win, and vice versa, so you just need to go permission-heavy and leave out things like Ethersworn Canonist.

Exactly what list are we talking about? Seems to be that MM on Doomsday should be good aswell.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=242014 Doomsday deck primer.

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Originally Posted by Waikiki

Exactly what list are we talking about? Seems to be that MM on Doomsday should be good aswell.

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MM on DD seems pretty good. Then the deck looks a little like ANT without Ad Nauseum+Infernal Tutor, making it a little easier to disrupt despite them having FoW.

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Originally Posted by Waikiki

Exactly what list are we talking about? Seems to be that MM on Doomsday should be good aswell.

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Meddling Mage on Doomsday is decent, but it doesn't stop them from tutoring up a bounce spell and going off anyway. That has been the case every time I've named Doomsday. If you name M. Tutor, you keep them from getting both more win conditions and removal for your hate. So you can sandbag some Spell Pierces and FoW and just beat them down with Meddling Mage. Also it's a good choice to keep them from just storming ftw, since they can't tutor for whatever piece they may need to go off.

To get this straight in the first place: what's the fundamental turn of that deck regarding the Emrakul as well as the storm combo win? Depending on that Meddling Mage + Spellstutter Sprite backup for any kind of bounce/tutor might cut it.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

To get this straight in the first place: what's the fundamental turn of that deck regarding the Emrakul as well as the storm combo win? Depending on that Meddling Mage + Spellstutter Sprite backup for any kind of bounce/tutor might cut it.

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The deck hopes to cast Doomsday on turn 1 or 2 into Shelldock on the following turn, Emrakul the turn after. It can also Doomsday on turns 2-4 and storm off (or technically turn one, but it's rare), only requiring 1BBBU to manage that.

MM on Doomsday still leaves Mystical/LDV into Show and Tell + Emrakul, so if you drop that MM on Doomsday, you need to have an Emrakul answer in hand (or survivalable)

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Originally Posted by Lego

The deck hopes to cast Doomsday on turn 1 or 2 into Shelldock on the following turn, Emrakul the turn after. It can also Doomsday on turns 2-4 and storm off (or technically turn one, but it's rare), only requiring 1BBBU to manage that.

MM on Doomsday still leaves Mystical/LDV into Show and Tell + Emrakul, so if you drop that MM on Doomsday, you need to have an Emrakul answer in hand (or survivalable)

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Gilded Drake is a great answer. So is just more counters (Daze and Spell Pierce). I've never played the MU, so I don't want to call it either way, but it doesn't look too difficult. Maybe more than one Gilded Drake is the best option right now with all of the Reanimator and large creature frenzy.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

Gilded Drake is a great answer. So is just more counters (Daze and Spell Pierce). I've never played the MU, so I don't want to call it either way, but it doesn't look too difficult. Maybe more than one Gilded Drake is the best option right now with all of the Reanimator and large creature frenzy.

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Gilded Drake doesn't work, because they get the Time Walk when they flip Emrakul with Shelldock. You never get a chance to cast it unless you have >6 permanents in play. Even then, they can build a pile that kills you the turn they attack with Emrakul, so it's kind of a moot point. :\

I still feel like attacking their tutors is the best way to go.

Here's the list I lost to on Wednesday, piloted by pulpfiction:

4 Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Doomsday
2 Thoughtseize
2 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Wipe Away
1 Meditate
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Cabal Ritual
1 Emrakul

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Shelldock

Sideboard

3 Pithing Needle
2 Infernal Tutor
2 Krosan Grip
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Reverent Silence
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Sadistic Sacrament

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Originally Posted by majikal

Gilded Drake doesn't work, because they get the Time Walk when they flip Emrakul with Shelldock. You never get a chance to cast it unless you have >6 permanents in play. Even then, they can build a pile that kills you the turn they attack with Emrakul, so it's kind of a moot point. :\

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Damn, that is true. I forgot those lands actually let you cast the card.

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4 Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Doomsday
2 Thoughtseize
2 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Wipe Away
1 Meditate
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Cabal Ritual
1 Emrakul

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Shelldock

Sideboard

3 Pithing Needle
2 Infernal Tutor
2 Krosan Grip
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Reverent Silence
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Sadistic Sacrament

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Wow that looks pretty amazing. The first list I looked at didn't look this good at all.

Anyway, I think Needles could come in handy in the sideboard. Get one of them down on Isle and then you can focus on beating the Storm engine. Still that looks tough.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

Anyway, I think Needles could come in handy in the sideboard. Get one of them down on Isle and then you can focus on beating the Storm engine. Still that looks tough.

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This version is much more combo-focused, and lacks the S&T out. Normally, Needle on Isle loses to Show and Tell. It also loses to a Doomsday stack with any bounce spells in it.