This deck, or something very similar, has been around for a whileQuote:
Originally Posted by umbowta
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=31842
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This deck, or something very similar, has been around for a whileQuote:
Originally Posted by umbowta
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=31842
True, Gui. Very true. I have always maintained, in quiet discomfort, that "The Gate" makes the mistake of bending it's strategy around making Abyssal Persecutor playable. In other words, it has to run cards that are suboptimal for the meta in order to provide sac outlets for an otherwise unplayable creature. Hollywood rose to that challenge with precision and had some successes too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
Even Hollywood understands, and has admitted, that The Gate is not a good choice right now, however, the initial game plan of the deck remains rooted in sound philosophy. With that said, allow me to offer comfort and a slightly different deck, which has seen recent sucess, to those who would like to continue with monoblack in the meta upheaval through which we are all travelling. Hand disruption coupled with long term card advantage and removal is a valid and versatile strategy. I merely suggest working with it. I never called my version of this deck "The Gate" because I don't run Percy, BB, Confidant, and all of the sac outlets that become unnecessary without Percy in the mix. One can stay true to Hollywood's philosophy without warping the deck around Percy.
Unfortunately, If you look at Doyle's list with some scrutiny, you can also see that the deck has warped itself to making Tombstalker more playable. I personally find fetches to be particularly annoying in mono lists that would otherwise be happily immuned to a potentially gamebreaking early Stifle. I also find Nantuko Shade to be a subpar creature that has been included simply because it helps mask the late game mana excesses caused by lack of card selection and the use of Dark Ritual. No matter, Doyle seems to have solved the problem of Tombstalker with fetchlands and Dark Rit--and then solved the late game uselessness of Dark Rit by incuding Nantuko Shade and Chainers Edict. Diablic Edict would have been the clear choice otherwise.
I'm Mack Doyle, the guy who placed top 8 in the Jace Tourney with the list umbowta is talking about.
The deck is based around the list makochman posted that was on star city. I don't know if I would call it "The Gate", but it runs a pretty similar game plan, just using a slightly different route. If you have any questions about my list, you can direct them at me.
'Grats on the top 8 Mack. My only questions for you are, what did you have to fight through on the way to top 8, and was there ever a time, whether in this tourney or elsewhere, that you wished Chainer's Edict was Diabolic Edict instead?Quote:
Originally Posted by 1337erhosen
[edit]BTW...I did some trading with a guy that went by the name of Mack at Pandemonium Games in Garden City last week tuesday--only about 45 min. away from Ann Arbor. Was that you? If so, you already know what my list looks like.[/edit]
I piloted the deck that mack used to top 8 for a long time, with a few minor changes. I can tell you a few things about the list from when I used it.
It is in fact based off of the list Craig Wostratzky piloted. Though it was discovered that there were a few major problems with his list.
1. Bojuka bog mainboard is amazing is many matchups, but the fact that it comes into play tapped really hurts your tempo and ability to respond to threats soon enough. Coupled with running 4 wastelands, and teh fact that many of your spells required double black to cast, 4 wasteland and 4 bog was just too much. you either mulliganed to death or simply could not cast enough spells at the right time to win the game. 3 of each however, seems to be the magic number.
2. The disk in the mainboard was also just too much. The deck needed to be able to gain board presence with its creatures, not kill them. My list had a disk and a damnation in the main. I actually really like what mack has done by taking all disk out though, and keeping them sideboard. It allows the deck to maintain its tempo and manacurve.
As far as Macks list goes, I can say only what i know about the deck from when we played together and I was piloting it. Anything else, and hes the one to talk to.
Bob is not in there simply because he dies to removal far to often, and can often hurt you far too much. The deck does not have room for top, and therefore does not have room to risk horrendous Bob draws. Phyrexian arena always does the same amount of damage to you, for the same effect, does not die nearly as often to removal, and is playable on turn one off of a rit.
I dont personally like either edict, as I believe targeted removal to be far more useful in this format. I ran smother, which changed to go for the throat when it was released.
my questions to mack are...
1. How did the edicts fair for you in place of the targeted removal i ran? did you ever see a progenitus or emrakul that made the edicts relevant? Did you ever wish that the edicts were targeted removal instead?
2. how was the 3 bog 3 wasteland for you? did those numbers ever force you to mulli or lose tempo that you wish you could have kept?
3. Was your arena ever answered, did it ever hurt you?
4. How did you come to make the decisions to change the deck in the ways that you did? what did you play test against?
Here's a brief tournament report...Quote:
Originally Posted by umbowta
1. Zoo W 2-1. Game 1 I kept a slow hand and he had double Steppe Lynx. I died quickly to burn. Games 2 and 3 are close, but I keep him off creatures and beatdown with Nighthawk and Stalker.
2. Ad Nauseum. L 0-2. Kept a hand with creature hate and no discard G1, lost turn 3. Game 2 mull to 6 and can't race him, despite having 12 discard spells post-board. I believe he was running the Ari Lax list, which is a little more resiliantmto discard.
3. UGW Countertop/Dreadstill. W 2-0. His deck had a lot of concepts put into one deck, and he couldn't keep pace with my threats and discard. He never landed a Dreadnaught, and my Bogs helped a lot against his Crucible of Worlds and Tarmogoyf.
4. Mono White Death and Taxes. W 2-1. He gets a few vials going game 1 and recursion through Sword of Light and Shadow and Flickerwisp messing with my combat got him there. Game 2 I double hymn and he runs out of gas quickly. Game 3 was close, but he punts when he plays a second copy of Mangara of the Corondor with 1 already on the field. Needless to say he wasn't happy about that loss.
5. GBw Rock. D 1-1-1. I draw more disruption G1, and Tombstalker flew over his Goyf. G2 lost to lots of discard and Eternal Witness recursion. Game three ends in a tie, with me almost getting there, but him drawing removal in time to stall until time. This match-up was not very fun to play, as the decks basically rip each other apart.
6. Bant Tempo. W 2-1. Played against my friend Joel in this round. Game 1 his deck runs as planned and he keeps me off important spells with spell pierce and daze. Game 2 I land an early Arena and am able so slow the game down enough to ride card advantage to victory. Game 3 Was very close, but late-game I top-decked double Gatekeeper to get there.
Top 8: MUD Stompy: L 0-2. This match was kind of emberassing. Game 1 he plays turn 2 Wurmcoil Engine, which is pretty nuts against my deck. He followed up with a turn 3 Welder and got destroyed by recurring Wurms. I didn't really have any board for this match-up other than disk, so I threw those in hoping they wouldn't be too slow. Turns out they were after I play a land and my opponent plays turn 1 Lodestone Golem, turn 2 Lodestone Golem.
In response to your questions, Umbowta, I never once during the tournament flashed back Chainer's edict. It's pretty new to the deck, so it's still being tested, but I think it's the right card against tribal match-ups, where card advantage is really important. Where I would want the Instant speed would be against Sneak Attack decks, as well as decks where I'm on the offensive. In the future I will probably play some mixture of the 2 edicts.
I have never been to pandemonium, so I don't think I'm the person you're referring to with whom you traded.
To answer Spooky's questions:
1. I never missed targeted removal. There was only 1 situation where it would have been relevant, but it's not worth opting for targeted removal when so often it's nice to have edict, especially in the Ann Arbor meta where there's always a few sneak attack players.
2. I decided a week or two before the tournament that 3 bog maindeck was the right number, because against decks where you need tempo, the bog is just a dead card. I'm not sure whether 3 or 4 Wasteland is the right call, but running 3 on Saturday I can say I never ran into mana problems using 3.
3. Arena was nuts for me all day. It was answered once or twice by Quasali Pridemage, but every time it stuck I had a hand up in the game. I lost to it's life loss once, but I would say that it'd definitely filling the role of Dark Confidant in this list, so you will die to it every once in a while. This deck also runs Jitte, which is pretty sweet against aggro as well as lifegain to offset arena.
4. To be honest I put the deck together 3 weeks before Jace-a-Thon, so I didn't have a ton of time to test. I upped the important creatures to 4 a piece, mostly because I was always happy to see more gatekeepers and more nighthawks. I tested against what my friends had built, so mostly counter-top, tempo bant, enchantress, dragon stompy, and affinity. In the future I'm going to test tribal match-ups more, as well as try to improve the ANT and MUD win %
Lastly, a comment on Nantuko Shade. I was very conflicted on the Shade going into the Saturday tournament. Early game, he's at his worst, because you are forced to choose between making him have a relevant power and toughness and playing more spells. However, late game he is quite nice to be able to finish an opponent off and make use of drawn Dark Rits. The other time you want him is against combo, where he's your best option to race them after disrupting their hand.
Besides running Dark Confidant, there aren't a lot of choice when it comes to 2 cc black creatures that are efficient. I'm debating testing Hand of Honor right now. I don't know that Shade needs to be replaced, but I would like to try to find something better. Let me know if you have any suggestions.
Grimclaw Bats is a potential Shade replacement. His positives are obviously the easier casting cost, which makes a huge difference in a deck running Wasteland, and evasion. Other than that, there's tons of 3/3's for 2 in black with weird drawbacks like Wretched Anurid and Rotting Giant.
I actually think I'm going to run the jump knight from Coldsnap, Stromgald Crusader. Gaining flying is a huge plus over the Shade, and protection from white is just randomly awesome against a ton of decksQuote:
Originally Posted by Greenpoe
how about adding another win condition? i know its kinda out of concept to the deck but... how about running a painter grind combo to the list? i've been reading post from different sites to and i didn't see anyone tried a build with the gate deck.. if we can't kill them with aggro we can take them by surprise with a combo. i'm also aware that one possible combo with the gate is hexmage depths combo. any thoughts about it? i'm just opening my thoughts on it and how we can improve this deck... thanks everyone!
Pinoy ka tsong? Im using the hexmage depths combo and it is doing good. Ive tested it and the problem im having is against jace -countertop variants..:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by DuewiNixj03
What have you cut for it? Could you post your Deck List? I'm not sure about what to cut to integrate depths combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lichking616
@Lichking616 Yep pare! yup i know that the combo will most likely be used in our deck is hexmage depths combo.. but what im trying to do is we should atleast try to put another win condition besides beatdown.. i'm currently playtesting my build and so far and it works good for me, also with counter top variants.. but my over all analysis with it is a thorough playtest should be done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lichking616
1x ShriekmawQuote:
Originally Posted by Kyubi9
4x Dark Confidant
3x Vampire Hexmage
3x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
3x Abyssal Persecutor
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Innocent Blood
2x Duress
2x Beseech the Queen
1x Grim Discovery
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Erratic Portal
2x Go for the Throat
10x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Dark Depths
1x Tomb of Urami
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
3x Llanowar Wastes
3x Wasteland
any suggestion? violent reaction? :-)
Lichking616, I'm wondering the purpose of these cards in your list:
2 Beseech the Queen (I think this card is too slow for the format. And with Dark Confidant you should be able to find enough threats without using precious time and mana for tutoring them)
1 Erratic Portal (I don't get this. Expensive to cast, and the ability is pretty useless in my opinion)
1 Tomb of Urami (5/5 flying creature with the price of all your lands isn't worth it in my opinion)
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse (with (maybe a little more) spot removal you should be able to get rid of enemy flying creatures anyway, and only 1 of these is kind of random...)
3 Llanowar Wastes (what do you need green for anyway? And if it's a budget thing, then don't bother. But if you really really want green splash, then use Bayou & Verdant Catacombs and add Crop Rotation/Worldly Tutor/Living Wish for easier tutoring of Hexmagedepths parts. But I wouldn't splash anyway...)
Despite the Hexmagedepths add-on, I wouldn't forget the basic principals of the Gate deck. My main objective would still be to get card advantage with Dark Confidant and discard and make the opponent play creatures and then wipe them out. I still think that Hexmagedepths add-on is a bit on the win-more area, but I might still playtest it if I have time.
If I would be testing this variation, I would start with something like this:
4 Depths
12 Swamp
3 Urborg
3 Wasteland (mostly for opposing wastelands)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper
4 Nighthawk
3 Persecutor
4 Hexmage
4 Hymn
4 Duress
3 Go for the Throat
3 Innocent Blood
2 Jitte
3 Cabal Therapy
Omnis List looks more straight and I'll playtest it for a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni
I don't think to add the combo is win-more. It fits the Gate for two reasons. We dont have to splash and it makes the Gate more explosive. Why not playing two Win Conditions?
@ omni:
1) I used beseech the queen because there isn't any other viable tutor in black..if there is, kindly suggest a card viable for the meta..
2) Erratic portal is a tech card used either:
a) To remove abyssal persecutor; or
b) To reuse the ability of gatekeeper of malakir or shriekmaw
3) I used llanowar wastes because my sideboard includes krosan grip..only for those pesky enchantments and artifacts.
4) Tomb of Urami & shizo - just a tech card..you may or may not include it..
The deck list you posted is the deck list I used before. Honestly, to have 4-ofs of the hexmage-depths combo most of the time is a dead card if you dont have a tutor on the list.
And omni, judging from the way you make your decklist...it seems you dont realize that you are prone to mana screw...its not a good list.
Kyubi9:
I'm already playing 3 win conditions (Persecutor, Vampire Nighthawk, Bitterblossom and Jitte), I dont need anymore, especially when it makes the deck more inconsisted imo. If the opponent StoPs/Paths/bounces/sacs Marit Lage, I have wasted 1 land, 1 creature and probably a turn. I prefer more straightforward approach on the deck. I realize that if Marit Lage sticks, it's a great opportunity to steal the game, but I still wouldn't count on it...
Lichking616:
It may not be a good list, but it's a list that I would start working with (from the basics), if I were to play the added combo. But I will most likely stick with my basic The Gate list because it's much more consistent, and I still think that Hexmagedepths is a win-more... Your list is just as or at least almost as prone to manascrew as my list, because of the great amount of Wastelands played in the format.
And that's pretty much it for my part considering the Hexmagedepths add-on. For now, I don't even think it belongs to The Gate.
So, I tested Omnis List (-1Depths, +1Swamp) against different Decks (RB Gobbos, UB Merfolk, GWB Rock, UBR Affinity) and I have to say the Combo sucks in The Gate!!!
It was inconsistent and there is no way to protect it. It's not worth it to think about it anymore.
So back to the roots and back to Bitterblossom.
I can't but agree. I don't get why the urge to change the deck entirely. I can accept that you want to take bitterblossom and try different kill conditions, but adding stuff like Beseech the Queen, Shierkmaw, Eratic Portal and Grim Discovery is counter productive.
You don't go and add a lot of new stuff and playtest, you'll never know which part made the deck better or worse. People should stick to the core, and modify things slowly, as the need is seen. As some people are saying right now, the meta is so diverse that anything reasonable might be able to put results, and The Gate, with a versatile discard outlet and reasonable midrange speed, should do fine the way it is as well.
Seriously. It's not too hard to see a bunch of good MU's for The Gate floating around right now. It's just hard to identify which will be the most common MU, so we can't really metagame for it.