Miracle Control

I toyed around with the light hybrid lists with SFM, but I don't really feel like the deck needs it. The clock isn't really an issue for the deck, especially since its a grindy control deck by nature. The clock is significantly faster than older versions. The fact that Entreat can literally come down on an opponent's EOT (via Top) and end the game the following turn, or the turn after that, makes a big difference there.

SFM into Batterskull as a stabilizer is great. I'm just not sure how necessary that is. Between all of the removal and countermagic, along with the chump blockable aggro bodies when necessary, the deck shouldn't have problems stabilizing against most decks. This deck lacks Daze to resolve/protect an early SFM like Blade Control has, and doesn't have enough bodies to reliably carry a Jitte.

This is not to say that SFM/Batterskull isn't a strong combination, because it clearly is. It's fairly easy to sqeeze a 2/1 split into the deck, and the combo has great synergy with Terminus. I'm just not sure how necessary the combo is. And if you're hitting 5 mana to hardcast Batterskull against RUG, chances are you don't actually need Batterskull to win that matchup.

On the other hand, running the 3/1 split of Snapcaster/Clique means you can play Draw-Go much more effectively. This makes Counterspell that much more effective, especially early game. Unless you're in a matchup where sticking Counterbalance ASAP is crucial, you can wait till later on in the game to drop a Counterbalance to avoid tapping out early. I think this strategy (U/W Board Control) benefits alot more from the Draw-Go plan during the early game, than the proactive "resolve a SFM and hope it sticks around long enough to cheat a Batterskull into play" plan.

Regarding Detention Sphere... I think that card is going to be the real deal.

I already run 2 Oblivion Ring, which I wouldn't leave home without, so making the switch is very easy for me. The fact that it pitches to FoW is just so relevant. Not only does upping the blue spell count making the deck run alot smoother, O Rings can be clunky in the early game, where you'd love to be able to pitch them to FoW. Now you can.

The fact that it can Exile multiple permanents is huge. There is very little downside to the effect, considering that the only relevant nonland spells it might hit, that you would also have in play, would be Counterbalance and Angel tokens (in the mirror). Losing your Snapcaster isn't a big deal (though I'm not sure why you'd waste it on their Snapcaster if you also had a Snapcaster in play), there will never be multiple Jace or Clique in play to hit, and you run no other relevant nonland permanents. On the upside, it can be another form of card advantage, can deal with token armies, and is an overall increase to the power level of O Ring.

True, it can be hit by REB, but that comes in postboard. You're running Sphere preboard. Even if you leave it in for postboard games, I'm okay with that vulnerability. Especially considering the upsides everywhere else.

My current list has remained nearly unchanged from the last time I posted here (which was ages ago), but I'm gonna go ahead and list it anyway cause I like doing that.

U/W Control 2k12

Lands (22)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Mishra's Factory

Creatures (4)
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

Spells (34)
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Detention Sphere
4 Terminus

Sideboard (15)
1 Counterbalance
4 Spell Pierce
2 Disenchant
2 Humility
2 Pithing Needle
4 Surgical Extraction

Sure Cage is awesome against any deck based around GY, and it is easily found via trinket mage and enlightened tutor.

@Pherion: Well, I imagine any one playing the cage would remove Snapcaster from his deck

@ Ivanpei: I run more or less the same list, except I run -1 top + 1 counterbalance and -1 Jace (i can't afford the 3rd now) and -1 SFM + 2 Vendillion Clique, and I like to play with 61 card, so Trinket mage is that extra card.

List I'm planning to run next weekend in Ovino (Milán):

1 Entreat the Angels
1 Batterskull
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
1 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

//Sideboard
SB: 3 Counterbalance
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction (maybe 2 Surgical and 1 Relic)
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Terminus
SB: 2 Slots (EE, 4º SFM, Pithing, 3ª Vendilion.....)

Against an unknown metagame, but I guess will consist RUG, Miracles, GW and other tiers mostly, what would be your two SB cards?

On the other hand, I don't like 2 CB+3 SFM main. I feel it is like not having a clear plan in your games. Sometimes you go to the CB+Top lock, sometimes SFM... The deck tries to do everything, and it is often halfway.

I like the SFMs, each player has their own playstyle so it's fine. But one thing is certain, please play 4 tops. It's the most important card in this deck. I find that Sensei gets Forced very often and extra copies are pretty easy to shuffle away so 4 is almost always the right number, even if you run Trinkets.

I would run the 2nd Entreat the angels. 2 is the number, as you won't see the single copy as much as you would like to . Also, why the single engineered explosives in the MB? You can't search for it, so run both together, MB or SB, but both of them.

Another thing I'd like to point: why instead of 3 SFM for 1 package and 2 CB, don't you run 3 CB and 2 SFM? I never have problems with those 2 copies. I also think that's the correct number if you want a hybrid list.
And don't think running the hybrid list is like not having clear which your plan is. You are playing miracles, and you have 3 cards for other kind of win-condition. But I think if you don't feel comfortable you shouldn't run her and play only miracles, trying to win with Jace or angels.

What about running 2 wastelands?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

But one thing is certain, please play 4 tops. It's the most important card in this deck. I find that Sensei gets Forced very often and extra copies are pretty easy to shuffle away so 4 is almost always the right number, even if you run Trinkets.

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This. Top is by far the most important card in the deck. I'd run eight if they let me.

I also think you need access to 2 ORings between MD and sideboard (S&T, Jaces and Counterbalances, though there's an argument to be made for running Vindicate if you're already splashing black. ORing is better against Show and Tell, Vindicates are better as removal and can deal with annoying special lands such as Ruins, Stronghold and a Karakas that's keeping Thrun or Teeg alive) and at least 4 gy-hate slots, preferably 5 if you actually want to beat good dredge players (those that don't recur all their Ichorids into Terminus when they already have 4-6 power in zombies on board).

re best GY hate, I think the newly spoiled rest in peace is a serious contender. Let's compare it to surgical for a moment.


vs reanimator
pros : definitive answer, no exhume shenanigans
cons : eats daze and pierce more easily, no element of surprise (mitigated by discard + expectations of any sensible opponent), sorcery play always somewhat risky in such a fast MU, cuts off SCM into pierce / CS (on S&T)
overall : surgical is still better, but not by much

vs dredge
pros : more radical answer, doesn't need two copies or SCM to seal the deal
cons : can come down too late or be discarded more easily, dredge can still potentially recover if they handle the card
overall : slight edge to RiP I think

vs storm
pros : makes cabal rituals significantly worse, completely cuts off the PiF plan, doesn't give 2 virtual free storm copies (this is actually a significant issue with surgical)
cons : no element of surprise (again mitigated by discard + expectations of any sensible opponent), sorcery play always somewhat risky in such a fast MU, cuts off SCM into pierce / CS, useless in multiples
overall : about even?

vs show & tell decks (and other decks focused on a specific combo for that matter)
pros : none
cons : doesn't cut off combo pieces once you countered the 1st
overall : RiP is completely useless whereas surgical, while not the best hate is a decent card in this MU

vs RUG
pros : makes 2/3 of their threats basically irrelevant, RUG might not have an out to the card and even if it does it means a huge tempo loss (mana + they now have to rebuild their GY)
cons : none
overall : you wouldn't side in surgical whereas RiP is great here


I've deliberately excluded blade control, maverick and the mirror, since I wouldn't side either surgical or RiP against them. The fact that RiP is great against RUG which is the most played deck right now is really the selling point for me. And it does this while still being very decent as a traditionnal GY hate card.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

Md:

3 SFM
1 Batterskull
2 Snapcaster
2 Entreat
3 Jace TMS

4 FOW
2 Cspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterbalance
4 STP
4 Terminus

4 Brainstorm
4 Top

4 Strand
4 Scalding
1 Mesa
4 Tundra
1 Glacial Fortress
3 Factory
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas

SB Still variable but for now it has cliques, flusterstorms and surgicals.

Just remember to board out SFM against rug since they will be bringing grudge in.

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Thanks! nice list there. I have been maindecking 2 cliques as well due to my metagame of omniscience and sneak show -.-

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maëlig

re best GY hate, I think the newly spoiled rest in peace is a serious contender. Let's compare it to surgical for a moment.


vs reanimator
pros : definitive answer, no exhume shenanigans
cons : eats daze and pierce more easily, no element of surprise (mitigated by discard + expectations of any sensible opponent), sorcery play always somewhat risky in such a fast MU, cuts off SCM into pierce / CS (on S&T)
overall : surgical is still better, but not by much

vs dredge
pros : more radical answer, doesn't need two copies or SCM to seal the deal
cons : can come down too late or be discarded more easily, dredge can still potentially recover if they handle the card
overall : slight edge to RiP I think

vs storm
pros : makes cabal rituals significantly worse, completely cuts of the PiF plan, doesn't give 2 virtual free storm copies (this is actually a significant issue with surgical)
cons : no element of surprise (again mitigated by discard + expectations of any sensible opponent), sorcery play always somewhat risky in such a fast MU, cuts off SCM into pierce / CS, useless in multiples
overall : about even?

vs show & tell decks (and other decks focused on a specific combo for that matter)
pros : none
cons : doesn't cut off combo pieces once you countered the 1st
overall : RiP is completely useless whereas surgical, while not the best hate is a decent card in this MU

vs RUG
pros : makes 2/3 of their threats basically irrelevant, RUG might not have an out to the card and even if it does it means a huge tempo loss (mana + they now have to rebuild their GY)
cons : none
overall : you wouldn't side in surgical whereas RiP is great here


I've deliberately excluded blade control, maverick and the mirror, since I wouldn't side either surgical or RiP against them. The fact that RiP is great against RUG which is the most played deck right now is really the selling point for me. And it does this while still being very decent as a traditionnal GY hate card.

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Rest in Peace is an amazing card for a deck like ours. It makes me even want to run the one of Enlightened Tutor to get Moat / Humility / ORing against some of these decks. Since I don't believe Miracle should be running Snapcaster anyways (at most 1), it shouldn't affect how the deck runs. I absolutely love this card. I'm going to probably side 1-2.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maëlig

re best GY hate, I think the newly spoiled rest in peace is a serious contender. Let's compare it to surgical for a moment...

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I will play four of them in my SB and see how the flow. REBs, Pierces and FOW will have to do until it gets online.
BS will also come in handy to put it back on top when facing discard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jessenator

Rest in Peace is an amazing card for a deck like ours. It makes me even want to run the one of Enlightened Tutor to get Moat / Humility / ORing against some of these decks. Since I don't believe Miracle should be running Snapcaster anyways (at most 1), it shouldn't affect how the deck runs. I absolutely love this card. I'm going to probably side 1-2.

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Now that most of us are finding that the hybrid version of the deck flexible and resilient, the next step is to talk about is E tutor could be a good inclusion main deck.

Pros:
- works great with Counterbalance ( main deck we have 1,2,3,5CC )
- lets you play less counterbalance main deck
- finds you what you need when you need it
- let's you play more silver bullets in the side board


Cons:
- it's not blue
- it's cadre disadvantage

So post board I have been having a lot of problems with RUG Delver. My MD is pretty much a stock hybrid list.

My sideboard looks like this:
3 REB
3 Relic
1 Terminus
1 Banishing Stroke
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Humility
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm

I side out 3 FoW, 1 Spell Pierce, and 1 Jace for 3 Relics, 1 Terminus, and 1 Stroke. The person i've been testing with sides in 2 Vortex, 2 REB, 1 Grudge, 1 Null Rod.

I've been looking into 3 Counterbalance in the side against them, which I know is good. Has that been enough for people?

Looking over the last StarCity tournament in LA and UW Control topped it. What do some of you think of the list? I like it but I'm not a pro (and far from it) and I would like some insight from some of you that are.

2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
Creatures [4]

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Planeswalkers [3]

4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Vedalken Shackles
Spells [30]

2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Fortress
5 Island
1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
Lands [23]

SIDEBOARD
1 Counterbalance
1 Disenchant
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Land Tax
1 Moat
3 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Terminus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vendilion Clique

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fujairah

SIDEBOARD
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Land Tax
3 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

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I would guess the Red splash helps against Show and Tell. Single Land Tax is interesting, I wonder how it actually worked out?

Honestly, splashing a tropical island (2 if you care about wasteland) and running Life from the Loam is way stronger than land tax in my experience. Has anybody played Life from the Loam in this deck? I've been using it forever and it's pretty absurd. If you have a fetchland + top you can see 6 cards a turn while getting a million lands.

Also, please stop posting lists with one sentence of, "What do you think of this?" This has been happening about twice a page now. It's not particularly helpful if you don't even put in a little bit about your thoughts/comments on a list. At the very least you can write a few sentences to say, "I'm not sure about this choice/I like X decision/etc."

Quote:

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Looking over the last StarCity tournament in LA and UW Control topped it. What do some of you think of the list? I like it but I'm not a pro (and far from it) and I would like some insight from some of you that are.

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7 2cc spells for the Counterbalance curve, really? I remember when I was working on Counterbalance in U/W Control years ago and people telling me it was horrible because I couldn't run the 14+ 2cc spells that Threshold Counterbalance decks had to make the curve work. I always try to maintain 10-12 in all of my lists with Counterbalance. But 7? Heh.

Also, the 1/1 split on O Ring and Shackles seems pretty dumb. 1-of's that serve completely different functions, even if they are removal, with no way to tutor for them preboard makes no sense at all. I could understand if there was a 1-of MD E Tutor, but I don't see one in the list you posted. There is 1 in the SB, but that doesn't do anything game 1.

In the matchups where Counterbalance plays a critical role - what cards does the deck want to answer that cost 2 cmc?

Instead, let's think about what the LA metagame was expected to be:
RUG
Maverick
Miracles
Show & Tell
Tribal (Elves, Gob, Merf)
Stoneblade
EDIT: Belcher

Out of these, Counterbalance is good against RUG, Maverick (to less than stellar degree), Miracles, Show & Tell, Stoneblade, and Elves (from the tribals).

Against RUG, CB @ 1 wins the game. All the 2 drops are Goyfs, which are answered by StP and Terminus.
Against Maverick, Terminus and endless StP should handle the deck.
Against Miracles, 1 and 4 cmc are the most important.
Against Show & Tell, 1 and 3 are important.
Against Stoneblade, 1 and 2 is important.
Against Elves, 1 is important.
EDIT: Against Belcher, you want Force of Will and Spell Pierce.

Can you please point to where the overabundance of 2-drops is critical for the CB/top engine to answer?
I can't spot it.

Comparing a deck's construction from this year to one from years gone by is a fruitless effort. Different metagames, different decks, and different new cards all change the role Counterbalance plays in the format. A deck like Counterbalance is especially sensitive to meta-shifts and often render it useless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by learntolove6

So post board I have been having a lot of problems with RUG Delver. My MD is pretty much a stock hybrid list.

My sideboard looks like this:
3 REB
3 Relic
1 Terminus
1 Banishing Stroke
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Humility
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm

I side out 3 FoW, 1 Spell Pierce, and 1 Jace for 3 Relics, 1 Terminus, and 1 Stroke. The person i've been testing with sides in 2 Vortex, 2 REB, 1 Grudge, 1 Null Rod.

I've been looking into 3 Counterbalance in the side against them, which I know is good. Has that been enough for people?

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CB is definitely great against them, I would try to fit it in the SB if you don't play it MD. From your list I would also side in REB (vs delver and counters) and oblivion ring (a big tempo sink, but the only answer to vortex that's not otherwise dead).

That's not true at all. I've played with Intuition for a long time and have never been unhappy with it :) Intuition is incredibly powerful.

I hope I am not late to the party, but I am just curious how you combat the mirror match. Do you just hope to draw better against yout opponent, or are there cards to help out between the Main and Board to help when you play against a similar deck?