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I just started looking at specific deck lists for this archetype, could you guys help me understand when a certain build is more desirable?
I'm specifically looking at the white splash versus a straight BUG core, as well as when you'd want a heavy 4-of build for the most part, versus a build with a bunch of 1-of's and 2's and 3's of certain cards.
I'm completely inexperienced with how the builds look, so any help would be great!
The deck has a quite high velocity so you prefer having different bombs in 1-2 ofs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dat_Gentleman
White splash generally skips on discard (and combo match-up) main while hymn based lists generally don't splash. I've seen people mix things though.
Hello, gentleman.
There are few ways to build this deck and the variant you want should be the one you fancy first and the one that suits your meta after. Some players like to have a significant amount of similarly functioning one-offs, others like to maximize the amount of same cards and so on.
As for the versions themselves, currently there is a version with discard spells main board and another version without them. The first one is built to have a decent pre-board game versus a huge variety of decks while the later is focused on beating any fair deck since game one and beat other archetypes post-sideboard. Understandably, "Anti-Fair" version has a much better game versus the fair decks than the discard version, while the later is a little more flexible.
Usually, white sideboard is used to compensate the lack of answers to non-fair decks main board while the version with discard settles with BUG colours.
I have tried the white sideboard once but none of the white cards were used, so I went back to the regular one. Nevertheless, if meta calls for it, white splash can be worth it. Anyway, LarsLeif and LeJay should elaborate on this one.
As for the regular side, it is a good way to re-configure your deck post board when discard is quite often less necessary (usually, discard gets cut in addition to FoW's). Since you do not need Meddling Mages as much when you have discard, there is less reason to run white. Also, despite I have sided the lonesome Hymn to Touarch out every time so far, it has won me some game ones, thus I have decided to keep it, but I might replace it with a third Thoughtseize if I went to an unknown meta, though.
I am not planning on building the deck in the near future (unfortunately, as Shardless is sweet). I was mainly curious as to what metas favor which builds, what unique effects are common in each, and when I should expect a given deck/how to recognize differences. So, mainly from an opposing standpoint. Thanks for all the info! That was very detailed and helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by DOM
Hey played a 80 man turnament with shardless, went 4-2(officially 3-3) before I dropped because I lost the first round vs burn, so there was no chance left for top 8 sadly.
1 round 1-2 vs burn
2 round 2-0 vs Bug delver
3 round 2-1 vs DnT
4 round 1-0 vs DnT
5 round 0-2 vs Elves
6 round 2-1 vs DnT
My list
Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard
Creatures:14
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Spells:24
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will
2 Dig Through Time
Lands:22
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
Sideboard:15
1 Scrubland
2 Thoughtseize
2 Containment Priest
3 Meddling Mage
1 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Massacre
1 Force of Will
The Dtts were super strong, also tasigur and the deluge.
Im not fully convinced about the TNN main, thinking about adding a ooze instead.
This best thing about this list is it ability to find answers for almost everything once you get into the midgame, even the 1offs are pretty easy to find and bring a lot of value. I'm also thinking about adding a flusterstorm and a karakas to the board.
I'm surprised people are only playing one Jace, has it been under performing? I currently only own two, but would go to three if I had the third. DTT replaces the third nicely at the moment, though.
I'm also surprised people are playing three Visions. I can see it being tempting to cut as you generally don't want to see one later in the game, but it's so integral to the decks plan.
@Dissection
Jace is good as a two-off, but three is one too many. Jace is rather slow and you do not want to have multiples in your hand.
Usually the lists with less than two Jaces run more than one Dig Through Time, so basically you either have 2 Jaces and 0-1 DTT or 2 DTTs and 0-1 Jace. I personally am not fond of many delve cards in this deck, thus I have settled with 2 Jace - 1 DTT split (list in the previous page), though both options seem valid. More DTTs is probably a better pick whilst fighting Young Pyromancer decks, so it is meta dependent.
Ancestral Vision is integral to the deck's plan indeed, but you do not want to have multiples early in the game either. Sure, you can just suspend them all but such investment gives nothing until they can be cast. For this reason I have settled with a 3 AV / 1 Sylvan Library split. Sylvan Library is not a bad top-deck, is a decent cascade and helps to set cascades or just filters your draws, pretty solid if you ask me. I am also keeping a 2nd Library in side for the slower grindy matchups, i.e. Lands, Jund, Death and Taxes, Miracles, Mirror, etc. It is so much fun to have 3 Strixes, 2 Libraries, 2 Jaces and 2 Nihil Spellbombs in addition to all the usual suspects post-board. Now that is a grind fest!
@nossirag
I am not sure about TNN, but Scooze is unsuitable for this deck, in my opinion. You do not have a lot of green mana and usually need all the mana you can get anyway. DRS is better than Scooze in most cases as it nets you 2 lives, not just 1, and is more versatile overall (mana, damage, life gain).
Toxic Deluge is legit indeed, but is Tasigur really worth a slot?
What happened while you played against Death and Taxes and Elves? D&T should be fairly favorable post sideboard and Elves are not that bad either, I would say.
Thanks for pointing out the flaws with playing ooze, Ive never tried it, maybe the burn loss still gets me ^^. Im still on the fence what to play in this slot, maybe I move back to Strix ...trial and error.Quote:
@nossirag
I am not sure about TNN, but Scooze is unsuitable for this deck, in my opinion. You do not have a lot of green mana and usually need all the mana you can get anyway. DRS is better than Scooze in most cases as it nets you 2 lives, not just 1, and is more versatile overall (mana, damage, life gain).
Toxic Deluge is legit indeed, but is Tasigur really worth a slot?
What happened while you played against Death and Taxes and Elves? D&T should be fairly favorable post sideboard and Elves are not that bad either, I would say.
Tasigur was so awesome, useful every time. Often I had something like 3 mana and was able to cast a "tasigoyf" and an abrupt decay for example. If I would play less than 2 DTT, which I wouldnt because its so awesome, I would probably play 2 Tasigurs, but 3 delve spells feels about right for me at the moment.
What do you mean by what happened against DnT?... won all 3 DnT matchups, just lost vs Burn and Elves.
vs Elves, yes, but if they are able to finish you turn 3 (vs Hymn taking Glimpse + Elf) and turn 4/5 (vs Hymn taking glimpse + Elf and a Force) there is not much one can do, I also did not find any containment priest...
This deck feels very hard to beat by "fair decks" once you stabilize on 3 mana. The DnT player (top8 in the previous 2 tournaments) I played in round 4 couldnt believe how much card draw/selection for finding answers this deck has to offer, its ridicilous.
Pardon, I saw 1-0 and my brain stopped working for a while...
And do you use Tasigur's ability often?
no worries :)Quote:
Originally Posted by DOM
Not often, but in the stuations I used the abilitiy I was pretty glad that I had it for extra value and it won me at least 1 game. It feels to me similar to other cards in legacy were you could settle for another card, but the particular card is overall, looking at all possible situations one can run in, just better. ( in this case for example gurmag angler or to some extend Tombstalker) The few situations were you can draw value out of it is worth having it, especially in this midrangy deck - you win the topdeck wars just because you have the ability to topdeck more cards and select more stuff.
If that makes sense to you.
Michael Raverman made top 8 at the SCG Invitational with Shardless his list is below. Couple things I do not like about it like no basic lands for blood moon or burn match ups and no 4th Ancestral Visions. It does have the white splash for Meddling Mage though.
Dig Through Time instead of the 2nd Jace seems interesting.
Disfigure seems like it would pretty good for Delver match ups where you need to kill Delver and Stoneforge or Dark Confidant.
Shardless Sultai
Michael Braverman
5th Place at StarCityGames.com Invitational on 3/27/2015
Legacy
Creatures (14)
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
Planeswalkers (3)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (22)
2 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
Spells (21)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
3 Ancestral Vision
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
Sideboard
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Meddling Mage
3 Disfigure
1 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Duress
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
Still on the Lejay build since it is good for my local meta. Haven't run it in a big event yet but that might change this weekend.
@Burn
Been relying fetching for basics and drawing Tarmogoyf/Tasigur to win this one since there are less burn decks in my local meta but back when there was 5 or 6 burn decks in my local meta I ran 1-2 Jitte in the sideboard. Burn can't let you connect with a Jitte equiped creature unless they have Vortex out. Jitte is good in other creature match ups like Elves and against Delver decks.
@Lands
If you really really want to beat lands there is Telmin Performance for the instant win against Lands if you can get to 5 lands resolve it and don't get waste locked. Not useful outside of the lands match up unfortunately. Leyline of the Void might be a better bet since it is useful in other match ups.
@Liliana
Necessary as an answer to creatures like True-Name and Tasigur. Also pressures combo decks with the discard.
@Post
You want meddling mage to name Primeval Titan. Most builds of post have Cavern of Souls to push their Titan through against counter spells. Null Rod is great against their Expedition Maps and Sensei's Tops. Thoughtseize is good to bring in because it can take Prime Time, Wurmcoil or Eldrazi. You need to beat them down quickly before they can get an Eldrazi. You want to keep some decays to destroy needle on wasteland or their top in response to their fetch.
@Tasigur
I like Tasigur the 4 mana ability came up a few times to generate advantage in longer games.
@4 Wasteland
Turn 1 Deathrite followed by wasteland is nice and wastelands are actually good versus burn to wasteland yourself vs Price but 4 wasteland is not very good against Delver decks with Wasteland Stifle where more colored sources would be better.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...Reference.html
Gerry Thompson's take on Shardless unfortunately a premium article. He doesn't think a white splash like Lejay is doing is worth it.
Didn't do so well last weekend lost to Storm, Death and Taxes and Esper Control. Beat dark maverick and BUG Delver.
With the white splash do you play Null Rod or Meddling Mage on turn 2 against storm with Force of Will in hand?
I played the Meddling Mage naming Infernal Tutor and my opponent ritualed into adnausuem which I forced and he had enough mana and a petal to play past in flames after that flashing back all rituals and playing Adnausuem and drawing into the tendrils since I had the mage on infernal tutor.
Versus Death and Taxes Brimaz is quite the annoyance with Karakas. Tasigur is pretty bad versus Karakas. Lost me the game twice once against Death and Taxes and again against Esper Control with Karakas bouncing Tasigur. Dunno if I want to try Tombstalker or go back to the 3rd Lili.
Vulnerability to Karakas plus field of expertize being a mere beatstick, that is already fulfilled by Tarmogoyf, make me think twice before adding Tasi to the deck each time such idea occurs to me. Consequently, I have never had him in sleeves, but nossirag, on the other hand, did and was pleased with the card.
Regarding Rod vs MM, did you know your opponents hand? If not, I would probably lead with Rod (because it hits slightly more cards in the dark), although it's a pretty marginal difference between the two I think. In your specific case it sounds like you where just unlucky, usually the storm player don't have AN, PiF and mana to cast all of them without tutoring for LED or C.Ritual or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirika
@DOM
Tasigur has been good in 3 long games so far where I was able to activate his ability at least once. Tasigur got bounced by Karakas 4 times so far and 3 times it was game losing. Probably cutting him though.
@LarsLeif
Did not know my storm opponents hand. Played Shaman turn 1. His turn 1 he cracked a fetch got island played Ponder. Turn 2 played the mage on infernal tutor his turn 2 he cracked another fetch and went nuts with rituals into ad nasuem which I forced and he played petal past in flames into replay rituals + ad nausuem.
Lejay make top 4 in MkM series Rome yesterday, with shardless bug. I followed him later in the tournament.
GG Lejay (that first round vs Lands :eek:)
there are any coverage of MKM series legacy ?Quote:
Originally Posted by ORDAL
https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/MKMSe...ain.php?tag=20Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancestral
or
http://www.twitch.tv/mtgquality
I just hope LeJay's adventures will not be untold.
On a slightly unrelated topic, to those who attended this MCM event: were there any side events? What was the overall tournament experience like? I intend to attend the tournament in London on summer, but I would very much prefer the possibility to play Legacy each day (side events) to playing Standard, Modern and skipping Vintage day entirely (I could borrow stuff for Standard and Modern, but Vintage sees no play in my area and country, actually).
Anyway, I 3-1'd a tournament again, losing to Tin Fins (0-2) and beating Mono Red Emrakul Stompy (2-0), Affinity (2-1) and GB Nic Fit (2-0). So far I have lost three times to Tin Fins and only won one game (not a whole round). Any advises for taming this beast?
Here's my 75 prior sideboarding:
Main board:
Creatures - 14
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
Instants - 12
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
1 Dig Through Time
Sorceries - 7
1 Hymn To Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize
3 Ancestral Vision
Planeswalkers - 4
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Enchantments - 1
1 Sylvan Library
Lands - 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp
Sideboard - 15
2x Pithing Needle
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Duress
2x Golgari Charm
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sylvan Library
1x Baleful Strix
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Force of Will
And that is how MB looks post-board:
Creatures - 14
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
Instants - 11
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Dig Through Time
Sorceries - 5
1 Hymn To Tourach
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
Planeswalkers - 2
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Enchantments - 2
2 Sylvan Library
Artifacts - 4
2 Pithing Needle
2 Nihil Spellbomb
Lands - 22
~
Seems legit on paper but my opponent manages to win nonetheless. Post-board he usually goes for the Doomsday finish, but Surgical Extraction is decent even then and Nihil Spellbomb works as a cantrip at worst and negates his reanimation route if he happens to leave that package in.
This and Goblin Stompy are my worst matchups so far and I would really like to improve my odds versus Tin Fins.
I have considered In the Eye of Chaos, but I realised that it does not go well with Force of Wills. On the other hand, it does its job quite well and I can just keep my FoW's in hand until this enchantment gets bounced with Chain of Vapor :/
Went 3-1 this past weekend.
Tried out the Gerry T list but cut 3 badseize for the 4th Force and 4th Visions and cut Dig for Sylvan Library. Kept the board the same.
Don't really like thoughtseize outside of the combo match up.
Beat Storm, MUD and BUG Delver and lost to Slivers.
Slivers if they open with Vial just comes out too quick to deal with unless you have Deluge. Crystaline turns off your targeted removal and Galerider makes them fly over your blockers. They have enough lords they get too big to block quickly unless you have a big goyf. Not to many people play slivers though.
Disfigure was nice to have in the BUG Delver match and turn 2 Arcane Lab of deathrite shaman was pretty awesome versus Storm but I think I might go back to the white splash for board. Hymm to Torach main deck has been pretty good in both the BUG Delver and Mud matches.