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For some reason I ha dthe extreme opposite impression about Punishing Fire vs Lingering Souls. I wonder what's your opinion about Lightning Bolt vs Lingering Souls o_O
EDIT: Also I take that most decks that used to run the card exchanged it for TNN. So.. Deadguy Ale runs it right now?
Fire is definitely better against souls than any other spot removal spell in legacy.
My point wasn't that Lingering Souls is the thing that's keeping Punishing Jund down; simply that it doesn't help.
@aluis
It is certainly fringe, relegated to GWB decks (DMav, DGA, Junk) and some Esper lists. (Unsure, but I'd assume most of them acknowledge Miracles enough to put some number in the deck by now.)
@Punish Foolz
(If we're gonna argue about something trivial) I'll point out that Maelstrom Pulse is better by about 8-9 mana and probably a 10 point health swing or so.
I'm certainly not saying you're supposed to spot remove souls very often. I'm saying that PFire is not meant for this meta and that Souls is a fantastic example of why. Playing the grindy game means you spend 12 mana to remove garbage. Playing with bolt means you just race the guy and screw his tokens. PFire vs. Bolt changes the entire way the deck is meant/able to play; and in the current meta I'd say for the better. Instead of giving the opponent life and forcing the grindy game, you cut the number of turns down.
Jund was a fast beatdown deck that disrupted the opponent. Then Lily and Pfire were evolved into the list as the game became grind fests. IMO, the list will do better when you evolve the list to the meta somewhat.
As long as creatures with toughness 2 or less are being played in legacy, punishing fire is well positioned. Jund can't play a beatdown game in a word with tnn. If it weren't for counter magic, the same could be said for rug delver. And lingering souls makes up almost zero of the meta so it's almost a non factor. The meta right now is delver, stoneforge mystic, deathrite shaman, death and taxes, and miracles. Fire is good against all but miracles. I'd say it's well positioned
While it's certainly a good call to build with Miracles and Delver in mind, to say that they are the meta is... wrong. They are significant players. Contrary to what the linked-to-the-point-of-spam Star City results would have you believe they are not the only players. And if you were to believe otherwise I would call you a liar or delusional. What about Sneak&Show and Storm and Reanimator and Burn and Painter and UR Delver and RUG Delver and Loam and random rogue builds and Lands? Holy shit Lands. At the last Star City I went to I played against "43" Lands and 12 Post before I got my first loss and another "43" Lands later. And I only played against a single Miracles (my first loss). So, don't try to play that decks that don't run bittie creatures are mythical beings. Because the truth is that they can be the format just as easily as Delver variants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Punish Foolz
I for one am running three Punishing Fires and two Lightning Bolts and am fairly happy with the mix.
If you want to take down a tournament, you have to beat the decks that are winning the most. Every round you win, the chances of running into smaller parts of the format go down. It does you no good to beat them just get beaten at the top tables once you reach them
DOM, I'm also running that split. I believe it's the stock build atm.
Top tables like this? http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=7959&d=245815&f=LEQuote:
Originally Posted by Punish Foolz
Again, for every time you have a top 8 that features fourteen Elf decks and a Death and Taxes, you get something like the above.
Phrased another way; what does PFire do for the deck in this meta that Bolt doesn't? Again, I'm playing a deck (Junk) with 11 removal, which is often enough. Why is it going from 13-infinite makes the difference for you?
I don't see why Bolt against the top decks wouldn't do as good. You simply don't need infinite removal against 12-creature decks; and other decks seem readily able to beat these same decks with ~12 or less removal in the main. Why does a deck that should be faster than Junk/Shardless need to go into "lockdown" mode?
Why can Shardless beat TNN decks with a beatdown plan but Jund has to pfire everything off of the board and Lily it? It's a contradiction.
Definately! I kind of want to try out a version with more mass removals as well. Sorta try looking at Shardless BUG and see what's his winning points, and see what could be done here. The SCG list that got first recently has Toxic Deluge MD and an extra one SB. Plus two Golgari Charms. 4 Decays, and surprisingly few counters. But they do have a great weapon from pre-TNN which is Creeping Tar Pit. The GR counterpart is Raging Ravine, which was widely used in Modern, I wonder if anyone has ever tackled it in legacy. Too slow? The good part is that it builds up.
You can't always draw direct comparisons from BUG to Jund. The fact of the matter is that they're very different decks, and your surprise at the lack of counters indicates you haven't had too much experience with Shardless. Going relatively in order...Quote:
Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos
Shardless lives and breathes off card advantage. If it blows up a few Agents with a Toxic Deluge, it doesn't matter as they'll just flood the board again. Toxic Deluge is great in Jund's board, but by sharp comparison, if we pop a Toxic Deluge and lose our Deathrite or Dark Confidant, it kind of blows outside of scenarios where the opponent flooded the board and we get a fair bit of card advantage out of the mix.
Maxed out Abrupt Decays is for a good bunch of reasons. The most prominent being that, without counters and without basics, Abrupt Decay is often times one of the only available answers available to the deck in response to problematic cards like Blood Moon and therefore must be on-hand as often as possible. Speaking of which, the lack of counters is probably the most straight-forward concept. Cascading into Spell Pierce sucks.
Creeping Tar Pit is tempting, but is also not worthy of consideration. Shardless very rarely gives a damn about their turn one. So, putting a Tar Pit into play tapped on turn one is a very good use of time unless you have a Deathrite Shaman in hand. Also, Shardless generates an absurd amount of mana in the long term. It's simply a matter of drawing more land than you can actually use either naturally or off of things like Ancestral Visions. With that regard, it's almost like a UB Horizon Canopy. Only it dodges Abrupt Decay and Jace and Liliana and eats planeswalkers for breakfast all day every day. We can't make as good of use of off-color totally blockable CIPT manlands that cost four as they can with Creeping Tar Pit. Treetop Village is probably the most viable of the bunch for Jund simply due to its activation cost, but the problem still remains that it doesn't tap for black and comes into play tapped.
I've actually had quite a few matches against Shardless, but I think Shardless is slightly favorable for jund, specially because it doesn't run TNN. It's like one of the few blue decks that stayed similar ever since Legacy Jund became a thing, so I supposed I never noticed much because I've won the match most of the time to start caring. (It's quite awesome when you are able to land Chains of Mephistopheles in this match)
Regarding Toxic Deluge, while I mean it in a list without P.Fire, sort of to make up to it's abscense, being able to hit multiple creatures, I'm pretty sure that if you're in a table situation in which you have DRS, BOB and you're still losing, I don't think you're gonna mind using Toxic Deluge to save your ass.
Jelly, I'm not sure what your intentions were with that link, but I would be fine trading places with any deck in that top 8.
My point was that it featured three Miracles, Storm, Dredge, and three Delver decks that Punishing Fire would only be marginal against.Quote:
Originally Posted by Punish Foolz
But bolt is barely better than fire in this match ups. Fire is better against delver because they are scared to counter it.
It doesn't matter. This is about other shit vs. Punishing Fire suite. Two more Lightning Bolts just happens to be part of that "other shit".Quote:
Originally Posted by Punish Foolz
Also, for the record, Bolt is always relevant. There's a reason you never board it out. There's a reason Thresh looks at all gross power and glory that white and black have to offer and still goes "nah, I'll choose red" for a single card. For all the laughing we do about how the imbalanced the three-for-one ABU cycle is, Lightning Bolt is the card that dares to spit in Ancestral Recall's face. When you're sideboarding against some sort of combo and debating whether or not to cut all or some of your Abrupt Decays or whether they might board this or run that and should you be worried, Lightning Bolt says to kill 'em all. Even if all Bolt ends up doing is ripping off the top and slapping some pile upside the head, it's done its job.
Ok, so if we drop Punishing Fire + Groves, what would be the removal suit?
Something like this: 4 Bolt, 3~4 Decay, 1~2 Diabolic Edict, 1 Golgari Charm?
Toxic Deluge isn't great in this deck as it is in Shardless. We do run more creatures, and creatures are our only win condition. Shardless can use Deluge to wipe the board and play a Jace, the Mind Sculptor next turn that will win the game. So Golgari Charm is the way to go, maindeck-wise.
Lands [23]
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Swamp
1 Forest
Creatures [15]
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
Spells [22]
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Golgari Charm
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sylvan Library
Sideboard [15]
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Duress
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Life from the Loam
This would be my first take on a Non-Fire Jund.
That list is pretty much spot-on for what the stock list would look like. Though I don't know how much I'd value a basic Mountain over a second basic Swamp.
I probably wouldn't play either a Swamp#2 or a Mountain. Though a basic Mountain is pretty good with SB Lavamancers.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
I will try to fit a singleton Thrun in my sideboard, as well. Pretty good against Miracles, after they've used Terminus once or twice.