[Deck] bUrg Tempo

i agree with your statements towards TC in this deck, someone asked, so here is the list i will play next weekend:

3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stifle
4 Wasteland
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Spell Snare
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Taiga
4 Nimble Mongoose
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Bitterblossom
SB: 2 Price of Progress
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Fire Covenant


maybe the Loam doesn't make the cut, not sure,
my personal "secret tech" ist Price of Progress, nobody expect it out of a 4 color-Deck and it wins games on the spot against Deathblade, Jund and Aggro Loam.
I hope that this is enough to fight the Delver/TC decks ;)

Well, I was the one who wanted to know :smile:

Your list seems pretty similar to the one I'm planning to play next weekend.

My list is this:

3 DRS
3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
2 True Name Nemesis

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Treasure Cruise
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Forked Bolt

18 lands with Wastes

SB:

2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Force of Will
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction


Would it be better in the MD to replace the 1-of Forked Bolt by the 4th Mongoose?
I don't think I will play the extractions in the board. I am debating over Submerge, Grim Lavamanver and a few other cards.

The Price of Progress plan seems weird, but I kinda like it.

How has it worked out for you?

I really feel that if you're gonna run with the Goose, you can't run Cruise. I can't for the life of me see that ever working out. I, for one, have dropped the Geese for now.

This is my current list:
LANDS [18]:
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

CREATURES [12]:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

INSTANTS [24]:
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce

SORCERIES [8]:
4 Ponder
2 Treasure Cruise

SIDEBOARD [15]:
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Hydroblast
1 Bitterblossom
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage

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I still need to test this out. We still have 8 one drops and Goyf still tops our curve. (in my case, the 4th Goyf is a TNN, because I don't have the 4th Goyf yet)
Another possibility would be is what RUG Delver is doing right now:
4 Delver
4 Goyf
4 Young Pyromancer

Though I feel that might make the curve a bit too high.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DemolitionColorScheme

I really feel that if you're gonna run with the Goose, you can't run Cruise. I can't for the life of me see that ever working out. I, for one, have dropped the Geese for now.

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this is totally a false dilemma. i went 6-2 at scg oakland with a deck maining 3 goose and 2 cruise. i urge you to test them in the same deck. i dont think they ever interfered with eachother to my detriment in all of the 8 rounds, and its happened like once or twice in testing.

i think this is for a few reasons:

(1) cruise gives you 4 cards which will likely end up in youre graveyard. thats over halfway to threshold, and if you have any cards in hand, its pretty easy to top off your yard.

(2) although legacy aggro decks cannot play any cards above 2-3 mana, they dont tend to finish games that quickly. a lot of times when you cruise, youre going to have 10+ cards in your yard already. i had multiple games in oakland (some even in aggro v. aggro matches) where i went through over half my deck.

My testing has actually confirmed your points, Sea.

As my main deck is not set in stone yet, I would be also very interested in your list. Thank you!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sea

this is totally a false dilemma. i went 6-2 at scg oakland with a deck maining 3 goose and 2 cruise. i urge you to test them in the same deck. i dont think they ever interfered with eachother to my detriment in all of the 8 rounds, and its happened like once or twice in testing.

i think this is for a few reasons:

(1) cruise gives you 4 cards which will likely end up in youre graveyard. thats over halfway to threshold, and if you have any cards in hand, its pretty easy to top off your yard.

(2) although legacy aggro decks cannot play any cards above 2-3 mana, they dont tend to finish games that quickly. a lot of times when you cruise, youre going to have 10+ cards in your yard already. i had multiple games in oakland (some even in aggro v. aggro matches) where i went through over half my deck.

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I could maybe get behind 3/4 Goose and 2 Cruise, but running 4 Cruises would seem really awkward to me. However, I'm willing to test it.
I'm curious to see your list then as well.

I will test a 2 Cruise,3 Mongeese build,too....maybe next week ;)

the idea of Price of Progress came up when i was playin the U/R thresh Version from the Eternal Weekend last Year. In Some MatchUps the Card is bonkers. if you have it in your hand, just change the gameplan to go for a long game and if they tap out Price of Progress, GG, I've won against DeathBlade when he resolved a hardcast Batterskull, PoP for 10, gg

It fits really good in the more controlish role, where you want the game to go a bit longer,

i think its not a problem with your own manabase, because you want to operate on 2 mana anyways

I ended up 10-5 at GPNJ with 4-Color Delver using the following list:

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 True-Name Nemesis

Spells:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Treasure Cruise
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Fire/Ice

Lands:
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Grafidgger's Cage
2 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam
1 Bitterblossom
1 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Null Rod
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Notion Theif

Day 1:
U/R Delver 2-0 win
MUD 2-1 win
Jeskai Stoneblade 2-1 win
Sneak and Show 2-1 win
Jeskai Delver 2-0 win
Elves 1-2 loss (Complete misplay cost me game 3)
RUG Delver 2-1 win
U/G Infect 2-0 win
Turbo Depths 0-2 Loss

Day 2
Death and Taxes 0-2 loss
BUG Delver 2-1 win
BUG Delver 2-1 win
Sneak and Show 1-2 loss
Sneak and Show 1-2 loss
Jeskai Stoneblade 2-1 win

At this point I am looking for ideas to shore up Sneak and Show and Death and Taxes. Sideboard cards I didn't like were Notion thief, Life from the Loam, Sulfur Elemental. Cards from the main I didn't like were really only Daze sometimes.

U can play more Red Blasts in your Board against SneakShow and Dread of Night against D/T, a Darkblast might be worth it, did u never miss the Stifles? of Course you didnt play against Miracles...hmmm

@Grizzlybeer: I really like your List, i would rather play a third decay instead of fire/ice (don't see any advantage over decay here). As we mentioned before, Stifle is not a total necessary card in this deck because all we want is to deploy threads on turn 1+2 and then disrupt our opponents with removal and countermagic.
Honestly, we dont have mana left for an eventual Stifle during the early turns, i would rather start the game really proactive and then start to play reacitve.
This all depends on how our opponent interacts with us of course.

But your sideboard looks really...well i dont want to say random but too many 1-offs for my taste.
stoneforge mystic and young pyromancer were one of the most played creatures during the weekend, lets concentrate on them by increasing mass removal (2 golgari charm + 1 forked bolt in the sideboard) and more artifact hate (2 ancient grudge, decay is also fine but i really dont like to decay a germ token)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sawatarix

@Grizzlybeer: I really like your List, i would rather play a third decay instead of fire/ice (don't see any advantage over decay here). As we mentioned before, Stifle is not a total necessary card in this deck because all we want is to deploy threads on turn 1+2 and then disrupt our opponents with removal and countermagic.
Honestly, we dont have mana left for an eventual Stifle during the early turns, i would rather start the game really proactive and then start to play reacitve.
This all depends on how our opponent interacts with us of course.

But your sideboard looks really...well i dont want to say random but too many 1-offs for my taste.
stoneforge mystic and young pyromancer were one of the most played creatures during the weekend, lets concentrate on them by increasing mass removal (2 golgari charm + 1 forked bolt in the sideboard) and more artifact hate (2 ancient grudge, decay is also fine but i really dont like to decay a germ token)

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Between 4 bolts, 2 decay , 1 fire main and another decay , 2 charm, 1 grudge, 1 null rod in the board I didn't lose a single match to stone forge/pyro decks.

I do like the idea of dread of night to help with dnt. As for SnT the problem is I have no way of stopping the combo if they resolve defense grid. So I lost one game fighting over it. I was thinking of adding either 2 thoughtseize or 2 diabolic edict. I plan on testing both.

Against Sneak Show i would board as following (with your list):

+1 ancient gruedge
+1 hydroblast
+1 Hydroblast
+1 FLusterstorm
+1 Vendillion Clique
+1 Notion Thief

-1 True Name Nemesis
-1 Tarmogoyf
-4 Lightning Bolt

what about increasing the number of countermagic in your sideboard, at least +2 pyroblast because its just too good against most of the field.
When i first played this deck back after grand prix strassbourg i played 3 thoughtseize to combat ANT and it worked out. we have to choose either flusterstorm or thoughtseize for our sideboard i guess.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sawatarix

Against Sneak Show i would board as following (with your list):

+1 ancient gruedge
+1 hydroblast
+1 Hydroblast
+1 FLusterstorm
+1 Vendillion Clique
+1 Notion Thief

-1 True Name Nemesis
-1 Tarmogoyf
-4 Lightning Bolt

what about increasing the number of countermagic in your sideboard, at least +2 pyroblast because its just too good against most of the field.
When i first played this deck back after grand prix strassbourg i played 3 thoughtseize to combat ANT and it worked out. we have to choose either flusterstorm or thoughtseize for our sideboard i guess.

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I actually brought in 2 Golgari charm to hit sneak attack/blood moon as well.

Why not simplify the list a bit to get it out of it's own way early on?

I was looking at a RUG Canadian replacement with Nimble Mongoose giving way to Deathrite Shaman and it occurred to me that if you only run black for Deathrite Shaman the list is nearly as stream-lined as RUG Canadian. It's Abrupt Decay's double non-blue casting cost that causes problems, particularly against other lists that are looking to deny mana early on.

How about:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Treasure Cruise
2 Spell Pierce/Forked Bolt/Pyroblast

3 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

Why not simplify the list a bit to get it out of it's own way early on?

I was looking at a RUG Canadian replacement with Nimble Mongoose giving way to Deathrite Shaman and it occurred to me that if you only run black for Deathrite Shaman the list is nearly as stream-lined as RUG Canadian. It's Abrupt Decay's double non-blue casting cost that causes problems, particularly against other lists that are looking to deny mana early on.

How about:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Treasure Cruise
2 Spell Pierce/Forked Bolt/Pyroblast

3 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

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Your mana base is the same regardless, so why not run decay? Gives you answers counterbalance, jitte, goyf.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grizzlybeer

Your mana base is the same regardless, so why not run decay? Gives you answers counterbalance, jitte, goyf.

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It was just a suggestion based on how the list looked. One card stands out as clunky given everything else the list is trying to do. Deathrite Shaman is not clunky because it lands for either green or black and it doesn't constrain the fetch choices as much as Abrupt Decay does. Forked Bolt is not clunky because it deals with all the early threats that might arise and it can also go to the face as a finisher if it's drawn later on.

Abrupt Decay is the only spell in the list that makes you want to keep two lands untapped during the opponent's turn. It's the only spell that uses more than a single splash color in the casting cost. It's the only spell in the list where an early opposing Wasteland can keep you from casting it until it is irrelevant. Goyf can occasionally be problematic in this regard but it doesn't constrain the fetch choices as much as decay does.

Maybe Abrupt Decay in the sideboard for when you know it is required? So that when you need the 1cc removal game 1 it's there and when you need the utility of taking out something like Counterbalance or Goyf in game 2 and on you can put it in?

Absolutely, back in January this year i replaced abrupt decay with 2 Dismember because of both colour requirement and casting cost in general (1 instead of 2)

worked out for me but not having the luxury to destroy permanents like Jitte,Counterbalance and Aether Vial could also bite your ass.
In the current metagame without that many wastelands i would prefer abrupt decay for sure.
But finally its up to you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sawatarix

Absolutely, back in January this year i replaced abrupt decay with 2 Dismember because of both colour requirement and casting cost in general (1 instead of 2)

worked out for me but not having the luxury to destroy permanents like Jitte,Counterbalance and Aether Vial could also bite your ass.
In the current metagame without that many wastelands i would prefer abrupt decay for sure.
But finally its up to you.

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So the question is: how different is bUrg Tempo than RUG Canadian? Is the disruption enough less that you can't just play past the opponent's threats and disruption the way that RUG Canadian does?

I see a 3 card difference basically. RUG goes 18 lands and bUrg goes 19, so that's one less disruption piece, and then the other 2 pieces are basically Fire//Ice or Forked Bolt in RUG vs the 2 Abrupt Decay in bUrg.

My experience with BUG Delver and RUG Canadian tells me that 2cc vs 1cc on removal is a pretty big difference early on. It's a DRS or Mom that lives on the other side for an extra turn and causes problems down the road. It's an Elf that survives long enough to be joined by several others until the hit parade shows up.

In this meta is bUrg Tempo actually gaining much by waiting an extra turn to remove in return for the ability to remove more obnoxious stuff down the road?

I guess the ultimate question is whether or not bUrg can disrupt fast enough to go on the RUG plan or whether it's going to be forced into more of a mid-range plan too often to make that work?

Hey folks,
I am back and wanted to say sorry that I have not updated the primer for months.

One big reason is that I do not have any ideas to push bUrg into a deck to beat. I do not believe bUrg to be one of the best decks in the meta right now.

That is why I will handle the primer over to those who are willing to come up with an innovation.

Is there any one who wants to have the primer and update it and take care of this thread?

Please PM me.

Hey,
As u mentioned you have contact to the developers of this deck, do you have new test lists of the group of german players around? maybe we can work with their new ideas