So is Blossoming Defense actually good? How many are people playing and what is it replacing?
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So is Blossoming Defense actually good? How many are people playing and what is it replacing?
I've tested it a few weeks, varying from 1-2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberius42
Typically replacing 1 vines tho (2 left)
I've found that the chance of making turn 2 kills are a bit higher with blossom:
- elf + 2 invi + noble (10)
- elf + 2 invi + pendel (10)
- elf + berserk + invi
- elf + 3 invi (13)
- elf + bimmence +invi + fodder cards for GY (11)
- elf + 2 invi+blossom (with 1 mana open for pierce!)
At least twice I won games by having lethal with it, when a vines would have done nothing.
That being said im going back to vines as It just feels way more versatile in a meta with equipments, shadow and what-not. That weighs a bit higher for me right now than being able to save a dude from golgari charm with blossom.
I think it fits the modern shell much better than the legacy shell. :)
Agreed, recently went back to a 3 Vines configuration over a 2/1 split with Blossoming Defense. The Kaladesh newcomer definitely has a spot against a meta that likes its toughness based sweeper effects, but with my shop's last top 4 being me, Belcher, and 2x Eldrazi I just don't see a place for it in the near future. Admittedly Defense has won me 1-2 games where Vines of Vastwood wouldn't have, but on the flipside I've far more often found myself wishing for a Vines to prevent my opponent from equipping Jitte to a beater.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neffy
On a related note, how does everyone here feel about our Eldrazi matchup? I've found it to be about 50/50, but I'm looking for ways to improve that win percentage other than "draw more blighted agents and invigorates". It feels as though their deck attacks from two distinct angles, which are the lock pieces and the sol land aggro. As such, I feel artifact removal tends to get stuck in hand against the double mimic into TKS hands, while hands with faster kills often become too slow or entirely unable to push through lock pieces.
Looking for more sideboard cards against Eldrazi, so far I've tested:
-Propaganda has done what it's supposed to, but the 3 mana is a bit steep. Has anyone had any success with this or Ensnaring Bridge?
-Ceremonious Rejection doesn't quite feel like what we want against a Chalice deck with Cavern
-I embarrassingly found out that Hall of Gemstone doesn't work against Eldrazi, as its mana conversion effect only applies to colored mana. Last rule on the gatherer page http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...ll+of+Gemstone
Untested Considerations:
-Thoughts on Meekstone? I know meat had this in his sideboard at EE5, maybe he or anyone else has some positive experiences with the card that they can share.
-Torpor Orb? Might also have some overlap with the DnT matchup as well, which runs Flickerwisp, Recruiter of the Guard, and Stoneforge Mystic.
I'm currently 7-1 against eldrazi online, where I don't have a meekstone in my board because i didn't want to spend that much on a card i was medium on. I played the meekstone at EE5, and didn't run into a single edrazi deck (though they were everywhere around me). The reason I went with meekstone in the board live was mostly based on my inexperience with the deck, and not being sure what I'm naming with needle. Due to this, I chose to cut the needle for a meekstone....I wouldn't recommend that now.
I obviously have a small sample size, but I'm curious why people struggle with this matchup. I'd saw that I win 20% of my games where I let a chalice on 1 resolve, because it just doesn't matter. Just aggressively mulligan for a blighted agent or inkmoth and protect it. If they have a creature heavy hand, then they can't have much hate. If they draw all their hate, they can't race you.
Vs. Eldrazi, I board in 1 karakas (just as a land), 1 corrupter, 1 k grip, 1 seal of primodrium, 1 force of will, 1 dismember. I typically board out 2 glistener elf and the git probes.
If loading up on Jitte continues to be the plan for eldrazi/grixis delver/etc vs. us, we may have a fun new tool to fight back...
http://mythicspoiler.com/c16/cards/gripofphyresis.jpg
My initial thought is that this is like Teferi's Response or Stonewood Invocation: devastating in the right situation, but probably too narrow for widespread use.
in the world where Wear/Tear, Disenchant and Ancient Grudge are playable that sounds a little too narrow..
If you don't play both White or Red, you can finely Abrupt Decay that away.
Yeah, Null Rod was already a card.
Only Batterskull would really make it playable (if he has not 3untapped...)
Oh yeah, for the very same amount of mana you have Krosan Grip.
very....meh :rolleyes:
How are people sideboarding against Lands? It seems like most of the sideboard is good against them. Right now Im bringing in RiP, Surgical, Absolute Law, and all of the artifact hate. That seems like a lot and I'm not sure what to cut. Is Vines not worth it? I assume we lose the probes. I guess dazes are a little weak.
7-1 seems a bit optimistic, but I'll try out your boarding strategy tonight and see where it gets me. Maybe sans the Karakas, the builds at my shop tend to run lighter on Wastelands/Thorn effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by meat
Yeah, but who doesn't love narrow niche cards? I'm personally very excited for this one, something about stealing Jitte in response to the trigger sounds like a lovely time to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by EJexpresss
Are Grixis Delver builds at your shop actually playing Jitte? That sounds like a matchup from hell, and I do not envy you for having to play against it.
Maybe you're in the wrong forum? I don't think Infect has ever played Wear/Tear, Ancient Grudge, or Abrupt Decay. Not to mention that our options for destroying or stopping artifacts have always been good with green/needle effects, but this is the first time we're getting a card that steals equipment at a reasonable cost. Reasonably costed cards with powerful new effects are always worth taking a look at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
'Tis a shame that WOTC decided to stop printing legacy playable equipment. Or a blessing, I dunno.
Rest in Peace and Surgical are both solid ways to disrupt Loam engine. I've had mixed results with Absolute Law, but for now am still on the "board it in" train (all aboard, amirite?). Artifact hate is a bit of a mixed bag, I tend to bring in Nature's Claim as a cheap way to deal with early Explorations/Mox Diamonds/Manabonds, but Krosan Grip often ends up costing too much to properly fit into the game plan. That said, I've heard (but not seen) Lands likes to bring in Chalice against us these days, so you'll probably want to load up on non-1cmc artifact hate if you know that's coming your way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberius42
Please please please please PLEASE keep every copy you have of Vines in. There is just no good way to get around Maze of Ith otherwise, and that card is incredibly difficult to beat without at least 1x Vines in hand. Also the trick with getting around multiple Mazes by using Vines main phase is a handy one, don't forget about that. I tend to go down to 1x Probe, so shave 1-2 copies depending on your build that day. Also down to 1 Daze on the play, 0 on the draw.
Inkmoth is one of your clunkier threats, as it requires a lot of mana to activate and pump so I'd recommend shaving a copy if you can. You can functionally replace it with a Crop Rotation if you have a second copy in the board, as we really don't have to worry about the card disadvantage of getting Crop Rotation countered like we do in other matchups. On that note, bring in the second Wasteland if you have it. Chasm is bad beats.
I think Lands boards in trinnisphere/thorn effects against us.Quote:
Artifact hate is a bit of a mixed bag, I tend to bring in Nature's Claim as a cheap way to deal with early Explorations/Mox Diamonds/Manabonds, but Krosan Grip often ends up costing too much to properly fit into the game plan. That said, I've heard (but not seen) Lands likes to bring in Chalice against us these days, so you'll probably want to load up on non-1cmc artifact hate if you know that's coming your way.
On that note, what does a second wasteland come in against? I've never played with it. Would you recommend it?Quote:
On that note, bring in the second Wasteland if you have it. Chasm is bad beats.
I play a stock U/G build with 4x FoW and Sylvan Library main. My strategy is +2 Surgical, +1-2 Grip, +1 Bog, +1 Crop Rot, +1 Needle, +1 Wasteland, taking out 3x Daze, 3x Probe, and 1-2x Pierce. I'd probably bring in Karakas if I didn't have the 2nd Wasteland (and maybe I should be shaving an Inkmoth for it anyway to have some defense against a quick Marit Lage). I jammed some games against a v. experienced Lands player (boarding 4x Sphere, 2x Chalice, 1x Choke with Molten Vortex main) and won 9/10 (seemed like a crazy fluke to both of us, but if you can counter Crop Rot/Gamble they often have trouble assembling a reasonable defense, and Library is BUSTED in the matchup).Quote:
How are people sideboarding against Lands?
Vines/Blossoming Defense is one of the key cards to protect from Maze (using it on upkeep in response to Port activations is great) -- I play 3 Vines and wouldn't play less than that.
Grixis AND U/R delver. It's made me build other Legacy decks to switch to in order to keep the hate down.Quote:
Are Grixis Delver builds at your shop actually playing Jitte?
Haven't seen Lands play Trinisphere since the days of Dig Through Time Omnitell. Thorn effects are annoying, but just do your best to play through them. I don't think it's worth bringing in artifact hate specifically for them, especially if it's Krosan Grip, as getting to 4 mana against the mana denial strategy is kind of a luxury.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberius42
Second Wasteland is good against Lands, Cloudpost, and... Eldrazi? I'm willing to accept that my experiences aren't normal here, as pretty much everyone else I've talked to has said that a second Wasteland is good against them, but it's never really been a factor in my experience. Try it out for yourself if you're expecting a lot of those decks, at the very least it's going to be strong against the first two. Also consider a second Crop Rotation in the side if you're playing another Wasteland.
Like I said before, I've tryed a 3 wasteland list in order to have another game plan and to improve the eldrazi matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesture
It appeared that the 3rd wasteland came instead of Crop Rotation and that I really missed the card in a lot of games where it would have been a great option, to get a nexus eot mainly.
I now have 2 copies of wasteland maindeck and a crop rotation and I like to see them especially versus Eldrazi.
I'm also trying 2 standstill maindeck. These cards can be incredible in a lot of situations like OTP with glistener T1 and nexus T2 (and if you add invigorate...).
They actually act like Sylvan #2 and #3 but they are also blue, which is good for our Force of Will which are a little bit weak in the deck because you often has to discard a card you'd like to keep, like brainstorm, pierce or agent.
Basically my list is :
8 fetchs
3 tropical island
1 forest
4 nexus
2 wasteland
1 pendelhaven
4 agent
4 glistener
4 noble
2 standstill
1 sylvan library
3 daze
3 fow
2 spell pierce
4 brainstorm
3 gitaxian probe
1 become immense
4 invigorate
3 Vines
2 berserk
1 crop rotation
yes, I thought I was still in the Commander 16 spoiler threadQuote:
Originally Posted by Jesture
3-1 a mini-12man last saturday. I did arranged a split to my fellow teammate to assure him 1st place, I'll get 2nd and we split prizes : ). I did however lost the practice game vs him (ANT 2-1)
Won over ANT (2-0), Grixis Delver (2-0), DNT (2-1)
1 maindecked FLUSTERSTORM is key in my 1st 2 matches, sideboarding 2 more is huge especially vs Grixis tempo, where they carry multiple spot removals.
3 STPs was also key in my DnT matchup.. alongside 2 crop rotations... as I was able to replace wasted inkys... and 2 times I was able to trick a thalia and a revoker via a crop rotated pendel on my glistener.
I was also able to lure him to attacking me. I had a lone glistener,trops, forest (hand crop/stp/invi).. He had 4 manas and a revoker.. he played jitte, equipped and in response I crop rotated my forest to a Sav for an STPkill. Next turn it was over. It was such a major bluff for him to make a decisive play. It was still the right decision for him, I just had better answers.
I would be looking still for a spot removal 2cc.. A resolved prelate will be huge vs us. Im not a fan of dismember in my current built, as I tend to abuse sylvan everytime it lands. Im running 3 probes too.
You keep/bring in Sylvan against D&T? What's the logic there (legitimate question as I'm still learning)? I have it main, and board it out against all heavy creature-based decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by poxy14
Fair decks will load up on hate versus our crits.. so I think sylvan is very necessary here vs dnt.. bug variants.. eldrazis..tempos.. I think the only time I board out my sylvan is against superfast combos as we always avoid to tap out. Versus creature heavy decks, our best chance would be via inkys and blighteds... you stick 1 and protect them... with sylvan you can just have 1 important opening, and you can abuse it several times to execute the impt W.. via loading up on pumps or permissions..or via drawing our much needed creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by meat
Gotta say I'm not a fan of boarding in Sylvan Library against any creature decks that pressure life total while limiting our plays (DnT, Eldrazi Stompy, any sort of delver.) Against these decks we're being constricted by the number of cards we can play in a turn, not by raw card count. Having extra pump spells against a Thalia or a Chalice on one isn't necessarily a bad thing, but at the cost of 4 life per card I'd rather have something else in that card slot. Same goes for if we're just using Library as a 1G Mirri's Guile to filter our draws, just doesn't feel impactful enough to earn its spot.
I'm in agreement with Jesture. I actually only like Sylvan against the slow grindy decks, and fast combo decks. While casting it on turn 2 vs. a combo deck might not be ideal, once the first round of fighting our permission vs their relevant cards, it lets us reload faster than they can. It also allows us to hide relevant cards on top with a brainstorm in hand in a pinch.
I left it in against Grixis Delver, as I felt like they went the control route versus me (thought them with a turn 1 delver or DRS plays totally different than them without it on turn 1), but I would cut it against UR delver, as I find it far more aggressive.
I agree with Poxy. I always board in or keep in the Sylvan against DT. It has never been an issue to me.
DT kan outvalue you fast, while clocking you (cutting out nobles with 1 revoker and beat fx), but I tend to experience that it is not a racing game.
Rather its about me sticking a dude (typically blighted or inky) and keeping him safe while my opponent tries to get jitte online as fast as possible, while stalling with Thalia og waste/port.
Having the sylvan lets you have improved card selecting and card advantage if you want it. Force of will is a dead card, and daze and pierce maybe just as much (Sfm activation, cavern, vial G1) so finding your valuable sideboard cards are important. With the new Prelate making Brainstorms worse, sylvan can come in very handy to "cantrip".
Also, their STPs give us life for sylvan to draw us more cards.
EDIT: i mostly keep in sylvan too, but bring it out vs. rug, burn, ur decks, reanimator and sometimes storm. Being just too slow.
I agree with Neffy :)
I think it's play/draw dependent vs. Eldrazi, where T1 Elf, T2 Library is a busted start on the play, but doesn't match up well against a T1 Chalice if you're on the draw. (Landing Library T2 on the draw can sometimes get there, but often too slow if their T3 is Smasher/TKS). You get a bit of the same issue vs. DnT (if they play Thalia before you play Library, it can put you too far behind), but they're not as fast so the card selection is more valuable. I could see taking it out on the draw there too if your board has lots of other relevant cards, but I would keep it in myself.
I only take it out against aggressive bolt decks (not grixis which generally tries to grind you out g2-3) and the fastest of combo decks.