[Deck] Faerie Stompy

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Originally Posted by sasa_batora

I used to play NQGw with two maindecked Predators mainly because of Dragon Stompy and Stax. I understand your pain, even though I have not met this beast when playing FS. (Not talking about mws..)

But dont forget that even with all of his shuffling and cantrips, opponent has only two or three of them. And with CotV you make his search engine much worse... SoFI also looks solid against guy, as you can swing through him and then switch the SoFI to blocker. (Not to mention that some of our guys stop Predator all day long: 4+4 Drakes and Efreets are >>> 2 Predators.

In your case I would try to maximize stealing aspect of the deck. Esp. with your SB I dont think that the opponent has some great advantage in Predator, as post side you have 6 ways to steal his Goyfs, Predators and Enforcers. Also imagine Predator equipped with SoFI forcing through Gilded Drake, dealing six and eating CB at the same time..

And the opponent is not going to play Predator before third turn, too. Maybe even turn 4-5 if we count Daze and/or missing land drop from his lands<18. By this time you must land big flier, some chumper for Goyf (Mage/Mite, the latter chumps the Predator too..) and with SoT/Gilded Drake you wait for a target to steal...

Btw, how are you satisfied with Gilded Drakes? I am thinking of them, but there is a problem with them being bigger than half of our creatures... I also dont like giving a creature to my opponent.

And do you find setting Eng. Plague post board on Drakes to be a problem? :eyebrow:

PS: I like the ITEOC thingy more and more. Time to count the number of instants in all the DTB..

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ITEOC has been fine so far, doesn't come in against everybody but is very good against the decks I want help for. The Gilded Drake has also been working fine (but not spectacularly) for me, either providing for (6) steal critters effects or being able to swap 1:1 with the much more vulnerable Sowers. The plan to utilize the Wipe Aways and the Gildeds for silly advantage hasn't panned out yet, but the experiment is definitely a work in progress. If anything gets axed from the SB it will be the Wipe Aways as they don't play well with ITEOC and are rarely a primary inclusion. They haven't been as effective in my other plan either - bouncing a 1cc/2cc permanent that pisses me off but slipped in before CotV. Maybe the correct SB for Evolution Thresh is +3 Gilded, +3 B2B with some painful choices in what to remove, but the deck is a beating... Having it played by good players doesn't help either... This is one of the decks where I would love bring in the entire SB...but what to remove becomes the problem. (6) cards is probably the max, but which (6)? B2Bs + 3 Wipe Away? Wipe + ITEOC obviously doesn't work... ITEOCs + Gildeds? ITEOC + B2B? All 4 Wipe Aways & the 2 extra Crypts (not seriously, as this does nothing to alleviate any of the problems of Predator, Krosan Grip & Counter-Top)? Every Game 1 I have played against this I have lost the die roll, making it much more difficult to land a Chalice at 1 or a Trinket Mage (the only really relevant plays). Without CotV 1 any large creature I put down gets whacked at an inconvenient point in time (often in response to equipping...) as they play as much removal as I play large creatures (pre-equipping) while they have the cantrips & Top to dig. I'm hoping that the testing of Esperzoa goes well & helps push this imbalance back in my favor. In a way, always playing second is good, since it is like running with weights, if I ever get to run without the damn weights, I will be faster & stronger (and happier...).

The Wipe Aways are the attempt to re-use them without a combat trade, but with 3x SOLAS in the deck, I am far less concerned about recursion (except against that damn 4c Thresh deck....). Maybe Jittes in the SB are the answer so as to be able to create an equipment overload after boarding (a la original FS). The Jittes would have the benefit of being removal as well & being an anti-Jitte card obviously.

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Originally Posted by sasa_batora

I agree on all your points about Swords, but I am really dissapointed with my results in the past weeks/months. The deck became very maladroit and due to all those cc5 creatures and cc3+2 equips, it works at the limit of its capacity. Every Wasteland or Sinkhole can ruin our day. I am coming back home. (Although I think that I will lack the inevitability and effectivness of the previous build in the late game..)

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You're absolutely right. Wasteland and Sinkhole are Faerie Stompy's worst nightmares, and I believe this is largely unavoidable. Adding a single wasteable land to the manabase changes nothing. The only ways I've found to dodge this are to keep high land hands or run a four-pack of Pithing Needles between the main and side and drop them turn one naming Wasteland.

Also, a strong play vs. Tempo Thresh if you only have a Tomb or City plus an Island in play, and no land plus Mulldrifter in hand is to evoke the Mulldrifter to find land. It slows down the beats, but it helps ensure you can keep playing Magic.

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Originally Posted by sasa_batora

Nice to hear about Gilded Drakes. I am going to try them. Have you thought about some recuring of them? (Or Trinket into Despotic Scepter.. :p)

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This sounds interesting. Running a Despotic Scepter plus three Drakes in the board seems like it could be good. But do you really need all that stealing especially when part of it involves giving your opponent a potentially annoying 3/3 flier? Is this much better than Snakeform shenannigans? Then again, Gilded Drake, Despotic Scepter, and SoLS have amazing synergy, and Scepter has good synergy with Trinket Mage. There have also been times where I've wished I could kill a Serendib (minor point).

I've been happy with four Sowers. Just saying...

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Originally Posted by sasa_batora

@ Esperzoa: Man, I really wish that card to be good. Twelve cc3 flying beaters... um-num!!

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Me too. But he's terrible. He'll probably spend most of his time in your hand, and he doesn't imprint on Chrome Mox. The times where he'd be frustating would seem to outnumber the times where he's useful. Essentially it's a two card combo with minimal payout. If we're going to play combo, we'd be better served running Painter or Dreadnought.

I'd love to hear otherwise, but I don't think testing him is worth the time.

Other random thoughts:

- I've been trying a Relic of Progenitus in the board. So far it's been mediocre. Further testing is needed.

- I highly recommend three Glen-Elendra Archmage. That card is insane vs board control, which is our most troublesome archetype to deal with.

- Blue Blasts are bad. They aren't enough to swing matchups and there's the Chalice at one problem.

- I've been testing Submerge, but have limited data. I'm not sure if I'd rather have Misdirection or Submerge vs. Team America and others. I may run neither.

- Wipe Away seems too hard to cast, and I've never thought we really needed bounce.

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Originally Posted by Kuma

- Blue Blasts are bad. They aren't enough to swing matchups and there's the Chalice at one problem.

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This is not true. Blue Blasts are limited, but for the job they play, they're the best option available. Blue Blasts have implications principally in two match-ups:
Goblins: On the draw, you can't really rely on Chalice at 1. Therefore, you need an alternative answer to their Lackey. This means you side any number of Chalices out for any number of BEBs. It's also a great way to counter Piles, Warbeefs, Matrons and all the other nonsense without having to deal with the CiPTs/Pro-Blue, but the principal reason for its inclusion is that you win the midgame, but to do that, you need to get there without being hit by a Lackey Gang Bang.

Aggro Loam: This here MU means you'll set your Chalice at 2. Each of their threats is a fucking Tank, but that doesn't make 'em any harder to destroy, meaning every card that can stop one of their threats is friggin' huge. Therefore, Blue Elemental Blasts are natural 1-mana answers to anything they do, countering/removing Seismic Assault, Countryside Crusher and being an additional counter for Burning Wish and Devastating Dreams, among others.

There are other match-ups, but those two are the reason I include them on my SB; both are common enough that I'd rather win them convincingly. Also, it can be brought in vs. Burn, where it will help you when you don't find Chalices (which is pretty much the only scenario where you need help anyways), RDW/Sligh (see above), and some combo-decks (if they run something red, it's most certainly better than a random creature).

And they keep Dragon Stompy from having a huge edge when they SB if they get REBs & Shattering Sprees & we get...bupkis? I lost to Dragon Stompy this weekend for that exact reason. I'll probably replace the Wipe Aways in the board with BEBs (again...) and see how they are. The fact that I can board them in against Belcher & some storm combo is also a bonus.

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Originally Posted by scrumdogg

And they keep Dragon Stompy from having a huge edge when they SB if they get REBs & Shattering Sprees & we get...bupkis? I lost to Dragon Stompy this weekend for that exact reason. I'll probably replace the Wipe Aways in the board with BEBs (again...) and see how they are. The fact that I can board them in against Belcher & some storm combo is also a bonus.

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Yeah, and Dragon Stompy. I always forget to mention one of the decks BEB hits; really, it seems like a damn broad SB card to be honest. Whatever is said of Mountains' state in the format, they seem as plentiful as ever.

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

This is not true. Blue Blasts are limited, but for the job they play, they're the best option available. Blue Blasts have implications principally in two match-ups:
Goblins: On the draw, you can't really rely on Chalice at 1. Therefore, you need an alternative answer to their Lackey. This means you side any number of Chalices out for any number of BEBs. It's also a great way to counter Piles, Warbeefs, Matrons and all the other nonsense without having to deal with the CiPTs/Pro-Blue, but the principal reason for its inclusion is that you win the midgame, but to do that, you need to get there without being hit by a Lackey Gang Bang.

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Goblins are extinct in my metagame and are on their way out of the metagame at large. Even so, we have FoW to deal with Goblin Lackey. We can also drop a creature turn one to block. I'd rather run something like Propaganda in the sideboard. Goblins doesn't have many ways to deal with Propaganda and it will slow them down enough to get to the mid game. Plus Propaganda is also useful vs EtW tokens and Ichorid Combo. Bottom line is that Goblins isn't a good matchup, and adding three blue blasts isn't going to change the percentages much. Especially if they're siding in Krosan Grip/Shattering Spree.

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

Aggro Loam: This here MU means you'll set your Chalice at 2. Each of their threats is a fucking Tank, but that doesn't make 'em any harder to destroy, meaning every card that can stop one of their threats is friggin' huge. Therefore, Blue Elemental Blasts are natural 1-mana answers to anything they do, countering/removing Seismic Assault, Countryside Crusher and being an additional counter for Burning Wish and Devastating Dreams, among others.

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Blue blasts help against Aggro Loam, but this matchup isn't bad to begin with as long as you play tight. We've got Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus in the sideboard already, and Glen Elendra Archmage can be a bomb depending on their build. We've also got SoFI, Sower of Temptation, and Pestermite to swing tempo. I'm not sure why we need blue blasts on top of this. I'd run extra archmage or relics before blue blasts.

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

There are other match-ups, but those two are the reason I include them on my SB; both are common enough that I'd rather win them convincingly. Also, it can be brought in vs. Burn, where it will help you when you don't find Chalices (which is pretty much the only scenario where you need help anyways), RDW/Sligh (see above), and some combo-decks (if they run something red, it's most certainly better than a random creature).

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Vs. Burn I mull into chalice or Trinket Mage unless I have a hand along the lines of turn one creature plus turn two sword and equip. Blue blasts are a minor band-aid. And we already destroy combo.

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Originally Posted by scrumdogg

And they keep Dragon Stompy from having a huge edge when they SB if they get REBs & Shattering Sprees & we get...bupkis? I lost to Dragon Stompy this weekend for that exact reason. I'll probably replace the Wipe Aways in the board with BEBs (again...) and see how they are. The fact that I can board them in against Belcher & some storm combo is also a bonus.

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Dragon Stompy is like our best matchup. The only deck Dragon Stompy would less like to see than Faerie Stompy is Enchantress. I haven't seen many lists with REB and Shattering Spree in the board, but even if they run those, we're still heavily favored. Their Chalices and moons hardly touch us, we run way more equipment, and our creatures fly over and generally outclass theirs. I don't think I've ever lost a best of three to Dragon Stompy. It hasn't ever really been close. Game one is almost an auto-win, and things don't change much games two and three.

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Originally Posted by Kuma

Goblins are extinct in my metagame and are on their way out of the metagame at large. Even so, we have FoW to deal with Goblin Lackey. We can also drop a creature turn one to block. I'd rather run something like Propaganda in the sideboard. Goblins doesn't have many ways to deal with Propaganda and it will slow them down enough to get to the mid game. Plus Propaganda is also useful vs EtW tokens and Ichorid Combo. Bottom line is that Goblins isn't a good matchup, and adding three blue blasts isn't going to change the percentages much. Especially if they're siding in Krosan Grip/Shattering Spree.

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I beg to differ; as long as Lackey doesn't connect, we're just plain faster than Goblins. If they bring artifact removal in, that means they'll be casting that instead of Goblins so your beaters can take it home, and if they don't, your equipment can control the board. Either way, it's fine by me and our advantage. I haven't lost a match to Goblins in tournaments since...well, adding BEB to the SB. BEB cuts down the one thing we lose to, Lackey on the draw - reduces the need to mulligan for answers and so on. Propaganda is much more limited than BEB in my experience. First of all, vs. Goblins, it doesn't stop them from doing stupid crap with Lackey and dominating the board with SGC, Tinkerer and so on. Vs. anything else, it tends to be a turn that would be better spent playing a creature. Also, Propaganda can be gripped like most of our trumps; BEB has no such problem and thus deals with Lackey just fine. In fact, it's my preferred means of dealing with Lackey as it doesn't care about creature removal.

The sole exception is really Ichorid, so Propaganda hits Goblins and Ichorid, while BEB hits Goblins, Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy, TES, Belcher, Burn, RDW, etc. Propaganda isn't all that good vs. combo either; it stops them from winning via. EtW, sure, but it doesn't inconvenience them going off one bit. BEB can kill Shusher or counter Burning Wish or a Ritual. Also, EE deals with EtW and we already play a number of those. Additional EtW answers just seem redundant. So no Propaganda, BEB is better.

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Originally Posted by Kuma

Blue blasts help against Aggro Loam, but this matchup isn't bad to begin with as long as you play tight. We've got Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus in the sideboard already, and Glen Elendra Archmage can be a bomb depending on their build. We've also got SoFI, Sower of Temptation, and Pestermite to swing tempo. I'm not sure why we need blue blasts on top of this. I'd run extra archmage or relics before blue blasts.

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We don't need Blue Elemental Blasts, but the match-up isn't an autowin or anything. They can still just drop turn 2 Seismic Assault and blast your face out. They can drop a bunch of huge fattos, such as Countryside Crushers and Vores. Out of those, BEB answers the ones that are resilient to graveyard removal. Therefore, BEB improves the match-up further. The one thing we don't want to be doing is losing good match-ups. Ensuring that you win your good MUs is just as important as shoring up your bad ones.

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Originally Posted by Kuma

Vs. Burn I mull into chalice or Trinket Mage unless I have a hand along the lines of turn one creature plus turn two sword and equip. Blue blasts are a minor band-aid. And we already destroy combo.

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A hand with BEB, Force, beater and Jitte/SoLS is fine. BEB generally counters 4 points of damage. That means they need two more turns than normal. Also, it can remove Sulfuric Vortex which could otherwise stop our lifegain effects from taking it home. "Minor bandaid" hardly gives them enough credit, especially since we're talking about a one-mana spell that's easy to slip through always.

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Originally Posted by Kuma

Dragon Stompy is like our best matchup. The only deck Dragon Stompy would less like to see than Faerie Stompy is Enchantress. I haven't seen many lists with REB and Shattering Spree in the board, but even if they run those, we're still heavily favored. Their Chalices and moons hardly touch us, we run way more equipment, and our creatures fly over and generally outclass theirs. I don't think I've ever lost a best of three to Dragon Stompy. It hasn't ever really been close. Game one is almost an auto-win, and things don't change much games two and three.

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It's a good match-up, but by no means an autowin. They have that turn 1 Slogger, you don't have Force and that's pretty much all she wrote. Once again, BEB prevents us from losing to a good match-up. Dragon Stompy is very explosive and thus sometimes just wins. BEB cuts that just winning down in size. We do have our share of inconsistencies, let's not try to deny that.

That means we need to increase the amount of hands we can keep in any given match-up and BEB does that vs. a bunch of good, or decent matches. Basically, it serves to help us not lose to bad hands when we shouldn't be losing, and pre-empts a bunch of unnecessary mulligans. Also, it's worth noting that many of the aforementioned MUs bring in a large number of red artifact removal...and it just so happens BEB can be used to deal with it.

Sure, it only counters one copy of Spree or Grudge once, but that generally means they can only kill one target of their choice instead of two targets, meaning that the Chalice/Redundant Piece of Equipment is still around and they're still dead.

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

I beg to differ; as long as Lackey doesn't connect, we're just plain faster than Goblins. If they bring artifact removal in, that means they'll be casting that instead of Goblins so your beaters can take it home, and if they don't, your equipment can control the board. Either way, it's fine by me and our advantage. I haven't lost a match to Goblins in tournaments since...well, adding BEB to the SB. BEB cuts down the one thing we lose to, Lackey on the draw - reduces the need to mulligan for answers and so on.

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Lackey on the draw is a huge problem, and BEB definitely helps with that. What's often a bigger problem is Rishadan Port and Wasteland. We're not faster than Goblins if they Waste or Port our Tombs and Cities. Pithing Needles stop Vial, Seige-Gang Commander, Ports, Tinkerers and Wastelands.

It's a little more complicated than "don't let Lackey hit you" but you probably knew that. Still, you are right that BEB is a good solution to the biggest/second biggest problem in the matchup. I just don't think the matchup is that relevant anymore. I doubt there'll be more than two or three Goblins players day two of the Grand Prix.

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

Propaganda is much more limited than BEB in my experience. First of all, vs. Goblins, it doesn't stop them from doing stupid crap with Lackey and dominating the board with SGC, Tinkerer and so on.

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Propaganda is a ball-buster against Goblins. They need SGC to win if you drop one early. It deals with Piledriver, since he'll almost never be bigger than a 3/2. Lackey can drop all the creatures it wants provided none of them are named SGC with a Propaganda on the board.

The other thing Propaganda has going for it is that you don't need it early to do damage control. If BEB is at its best stopping early Lackeys, then it gets worse as the game goes on.

Truthfully, I think they're both sub-par choices, and I don't run either.

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

Vs. anything else, it tends to be a turn that would be better spent playing a creature. Also, Propaganda can be gripped like most of our trumps; BEB has no such problem and thus deals with Lackey just fine. In fact, it's my preferred means of dealing with Lackey as it doesn't care about creature removal.

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I'd probably rather drop Propaganda than a creature vs. Belcher, Ichorid, Elves, and random Aggro.

Yeah, Prop can be gripped, but that's Goblins' only answer. And they'll probably need to answer it.

I won't argue that Propaganda is better for dealing with early Lackey, but there are other things to consider.

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

The sole exception is really Ichorid, so Propaganda hits Goblins and Ichorid, while BEB hits Goblins, Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy, TES, Belcher, Burn, RDW, etc. Propaganda isn't all that good vs. combo either; it stops them from winning via. EtW, sure, but it doesn't inconvenience them going off one bit. BEB can kill Shusher or counter Burning Wish or a Ritual. Also, EE deals with EtW and we already play a number of those. Additional EtW answers just seem redundant. So no Propaganda, BEB is better.

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Propaganda hits Belcher, Ichorid, Elves, and random Aggro. It also has uses against TES, but I usually don't board them in since that's overkill.

BEB hits Aggro Loam, Burn, and Belcher. It's unreliable against TES, plus Chalice at one is our best play against them. We eat them alive anyway.

RDW, seriously? Then again, I mentioned Elves...

I'd probably rather hit Ichorid than Dragon Stompy, TES, Belcher, and Burn put together. Propaganda takes Ichorid from unfavorable to favorable, while BEB is marginal in each of those matchups. Also, Ichorid is probably about as prevalent as Dragon Stompy, Belcher, and Burn put together.

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

It's a good match-up, but by no means an autowin. They have that turn 1 Slogger, you don't have Force and that's pretty much all she wrote. Once again, BEB prevents us from losing to a good match-up. Dragon Stompy is very explosive and thus sometimes just wins. BEB cuts that just winning down in size. We do have our share of inconsistencies, let's not try to deny that.

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We don't need the help against Dragon Stompy. I've played with Dragon Stompy in dozens of tournaments, and Faerie Stompy is favored like 75/25, minimum. Blue Blasts are overkill.

Our odds of having a turn one FoW are way better than their odds of a turn one Slogger.

Dragon Stompy only "just wins" with an unanswered turn one Slogger, stupid Pit-Dragon tricks, or with an early moon. We can easily answer a turn one Slogger or Pit-Dragon without BEB, moons don't affect us much, and they're the first thing the Dragon Stompy player is boarding out.

What it really comes down to is sideboard slots. I could run BEB for Goblins, Aggro Loam, and Burn, or I could run extra copies of Pithing Needle and Glen-Elendra Archmage for Landstill, Rock, and control. I think those decks are bigger problems.

Umezawa's Jitte is also great against Goblins, Burn, Dragon Stompy, and anything running Jitte while helping our awful Zoo matchup.

Submerge is great vs. Team America, Thresh, Eva Green, and some Dreadstill lists.

I think either of those are better than two BEB as well.

My sideboard right now is:

1 Sower of Temptation
3 Pithing Needle (4th is in the main)
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus (might become Crypt number two)
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Glen-Elendra Archmage
3 Back to Basics
2 Umezawa's Jitte/Submerge

@ Kuma:

Yeah, you got a point with Wastelnad and especially Port. This is where Goblins gain huge tempo boost (assuming they have Lackey/Vial, but even just Warchief and his manacost reducing + haste can make trouble), which can be crucial. I always find it problematic to board against them, becasue we need to many unsynergistic cards, like CotV@1+Needle+EE+Blast.

I dont like that matchup. We need this:


________________________
Hydrokinesis :3: :u: :u:

Instant

Rather than pay H-kynesis
manacost, you may remove
a blue card from your hand
from the game.

Hydrokinesis deals three
damage divided as you
choose amongst any
number of target non-blue
non-flying creatures.

"Damn the damned dam!"
Ibfp Halfheart, last words.
________________________

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Originally Posted by sasa_batora

@ Kuma:

Yeah, you got a point with Wastelnad and especially Port. This is where Goblins gain huge tempo boost (assuming they have Lackey/Vial, but even just Warchief and his manacost reducing + haste can make trouble), which can be crucial. I always find it problematic to board against them, becasue we need to many unsynergistic cards, like CotV@1+Needle+EE+Blast.

I dont like that matchup.

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Vs Goblins, I board out the Chalices if I'm on the draw. Once they've dropped a Lackey or Vial, Chalice becomes nearly useless.

My boarding strategy is as follows:

If I'm on the draw, -4 Mulldrifter, -4 Chalice of the Void, +3 Pithing Needle, +1 Engineered Explosives, +2 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 Sower, +1 Glen-Elendra Archmage.

On the play, -4 Mulldrifter, +2 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 Pithing Needle/Sower, +1 Engineered Explosives.

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Originally Posted by sasa_batora

@ We need this:


________________________
Hydrokinesis :3: :u: :u:

Instant

Rather than pay H-kynesis
manacost, you may remove
a blue card from your hand
from the game.

Hydrokinesis deals three
damage divided as you
choose amongst any
number of target non-blue
non-flying creatures.

"Damn the damned dam!"
Ibfp Halfheart, last words.
________________________

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:laugh:

Yeah, vs. Goblins I'd run blue Pyrokinesis in a heartbeat.

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Originally Posted by sasa_batora

But many Goblin players will play REBs, Swords to Plows, Weirdings, etc, so we can use CotV. And it is also good once we destroy Vial via EE. I dont know, maybe just one-of as a Trinket target after we control situation a bit...?

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I keep one Chalice in. I think that's the correct boarding, ultimately. That's also why I had 3 BEBs on my SB - that means I can bring 3 in and leave that one Chalice. I wouldn't even really want the 4th that often.

Does anyone have any thoughts on playing the Threshold and Landstill matches? They've been tough games for me lately, and I've been wondering if maybe I'm doing something wrong.

Here's what I've got:

The longer you wait to play Chalice at one versus Thresh, the weaker it becomes. It's excellent turn one on the play, but by turn four it's lost most of its punch. In the midgame you're probably better off trinketing up a Crypt/Relic or going for a Chalice at two to hit Smother/Daze/Tarmogoyf/Bob/Edict/Counterbalance/Chain of Plasma. However, vs. most red lists you'll probably want the Chalice at one even in the midgame.

It really sucks dealing with a 4/5 goyf when your biggest creature is 4/3. It's not that hard for goyf to be that size or bigger since we run a lot of creatures and artifacts. This is why I board in the fourth Sower and a Relic of Progenitus. The only other options we have are FoW and Chalice at two, the latter of which doesn't usually come down quick enough.

Glen-Elendra Archmage isn't worth it against Thresh unless they're running around eight removal spells. Even then I don't know what to cut for it.

It's usually best to risk being Dazed, unless it's easily avoidable. It's rarely worth imprinting a threat on a Chrome Mox to avoid the chance of a threat being Dazed. It's also usually not worth losing a City of Traitors to avoid Daze unless you have a hand full of land.

Trygon Predator also really sucks. Having four Sowers is really good against Thresh.

If you're playing against Thresh with Wastelands, you should probably board in a Needle or two and drop them early naming Wasteland. High mana hands are better than usual here. If I only have an Island and a double-colorless land for mana, I'll evoke my Mulldrifters early to try to hit more land. Nothing has lost me games here like having a Tomb/City wasted with no replacement in hand.

Landstill requires dramatic sideboarding. My usual is something like -2 SoFI -3 Sower, -3 Chalice of the Void, -1 Serendib Efreet, +3 Pithing Needle, +3 Glen-Elendra Archmage, +3 Back to Basics, +1 Relic of Progenitus (if they run goyf). The Pithing Needles are amazing. I'd run six or seven if I could.

Remember, you can break Standstills during cleanup with Pestermite to force them to discard some of the cards they draw.

Don't overextend. Deed and EE will screw you if you're not careful.

Mulldrifter's CMC can be a huge advantage here. I'd still evoke them early if you need mana to avoid Wasteland.

Back to Basics isn't that great against two and most three colored lists.

Any other pearls of wisdom from those experienced in these matchups? Am I wrong about any of these points?

Here's how I play vs. Thresh:
-Use Chalice at 1 to draw counter
-Needle Top
-Mage for another Chalice, drop at 2 if possible (1 is ok too)
-Other than that, just fast beats, manage lifetotals carefully and determine who is the aggressor in any given scenario and play accordingly. Generally, you'd prefer to be attacking early on, but sometimes you need to be blocking a Goyf until you can achieve control.
-Pestermite in hand means you'll probably want to try to set up a race. Sower is better in control-game, but of course swings races too; playing a more controlling role when you have one does mean you're like to get to resolve it though.
-Equipment is good. Makes everything in your deck kick everything of theirs' ass. Leading with equipment is often a fine play as it may make them waste counters.
-Playing around Daze is worth it on a case-by-case basis, depending on your hand (mostly the number of threats and the amount of mana). By and large though, it's more efficient to just play straight into it.
-Try to spend your mana efficiently; ultimately, this match usually comes down to who's faster and optimizing your mana consumption goes a long way towards that. Avoid giving up the attrition war though. Some of their hands are very removal-heavy and make for a longish game and it pays to be prepared for both.

Vs. Landstill:
-First turn creature if at all possible; getting a beater in play and keeping it there blanks their Standstills.
-Against white variants, play aggressively and try to knock 'em out before you have to worry about Humilities and the like.
-Pestermite should usually be saved for their Standstills (respond with Pestermite; it can potentially force them to break their own Still), but occasionally you have a chance to make a tempo play on their land or an accelerated turn of your own; when you do, take it.
-Mulldrifter should rarely be evoked as you'd prefer the extra "card" that tends to force an answer to lower manacost almost always. This is especially true vs. EE and Deed.
-Chalice is a good bait, although if you can cast it for 2, it'll have very real value too. In tempo-hands, Chalice can be an invaluable StP/Brainstorm-killer.
-Against non-BG builds, Needle should almost always name EE. Against BG builds, you'll rarely want early Needles and instead want to wait for a sitiuation where they need to cast EE, or have cast Deed and name whichever is in play/going to be played.
-Try to sneak an equipment into play if at all possible; it'll remove the need to overcommit into mass removal. Of course, if their mass removal of choice is Deed, this is a mootish point. Still, the fact that your equipment generates card advantage whenever you hit the opponent lessens the impact of getting your board wiped.


Even with perfect play, you'll lose your share of games though. The decks are on top of the format for a reason. Much of the time though, you should be able to pull it out especially against the 2-3colour versions (and against 4+c versions, you have B2B) by forcing them to answer your medium threats and forcing a big one through. Remember Wakefield - it's not the first fatto that gets you, it's the last. Play accordingly, assume your first plays to get answered, but place some value in them so they force an answer. Then resolve your Sowers, Mulldrifters, Trinket Mages, the cards that put you in a winning position.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

Here's how I play vs. Thresh:
-Use Chalice at 1 to draw counter

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So if they counter it we should let it go? I've been assuming that a Force or Daze on an early Chalice means that they've got a hand full of one-costers, so I often Force back. I think you're right that Chalice at one is better as counter bait.

I think it's way more important against Dreadstill. It's probably worth Forcing back there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

-Needle Top

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This is something else I haven't been doing. I've been relying on Chalice to stop Top and boarding out my Needles if they don't play Wasteland. I guess it's a good call if you have an extra Needle, but wouldn't it be better to have a Relic or Crypt post-board? Provided they aren't playing Wasteland. What do you do about Wasteland?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

-Mage for another Chalice, drop at 2 if possible (1 is ok too)

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I agree with this if they don't have a goyf or goyfs on the table. If they do, you should consider getting Relic or Crypt. "Ok" is exactly how I feel about a midgame Chalice at one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

-Other than that, just fast beats, manage lifetotals carefully and determine who is the aggressor in any given scenario and play accordingly. Generally, you'd prefer to be attacking early on, but sometimes you need to be blocking a Goyf until you can achieve control.

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This is one of the few things Serendib is good for. I think I've been guilty of playing a little too aggressively against Thresh, and I've been trying to be a little more defensive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

-Pestermite in hand means you'll probably want to try to set up a race. Sower is better in control-game, but of course swings races too; playing a more controlling role when you have one does mean you're like to get to resolve it though.

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Agreed, but I think you sell Sower short. He's amazing vs. Threshold, IMO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

-Equipment is good. Makes everything in your deck kick everything of theirs' ass. Leading with equipment is often a fine play as it may make them waste counters.

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I'll have to try leading with equipment more often. Maybe I should board in my two Jitte's vs. Thresh.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

-Playing around Daze is worth it on a case-by-case basis, depending on your hand (mostly the number of threats and the amount of mana). By and large though, it's more efficient to just play straight into it.

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Completely agree.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

-Try to spend your mana efficiently; ultimately, this match usually comes down to who's faster and optimizing your mana consumption goes a long way towards that. Avoid giving up the attrition war though. Some of their hands are very removal-heavy and make for a longish game and it pays to be prepared for both.

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Point taken. Play slowly and efficiently vs. Thresh. However, I think a large part of my problem is that most Thresh lists in my meta main Trygon Predator and/or run lots of removal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

Vs. Landstill:
-First turn creature if at all possible; getting a beater in play and keeping it there blanks their Standstills.

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Sounds good. I really don't know how to play against Landstill, since it's almost non-existent in my meta.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

-Against white variants, play aggressively and try to knock 'em out before you have to worry about Humilities and the like.

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Sounds like running all the equipment possible is a good idea here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

-Pestermite should usually be saved for their Standstills (respond with Pestermite; it can potentially force them to break their own Still), but occasionally you have a chance to make a tempo play on their land or an accelerated turn of your own; when you do, take it.

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Take my opinion for what you will, but a tempo play on their land sounds really weak vs. Landstill. You're overcomitting to the board to tap a land. I'd do it if Pestermite was my only beater, but it seems weak otherwise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

-Mulldrifter should rarely be evoked as you'd prefer the extra "card" that tends to force an answer to lower manacost almost always. This is especially true vs. EE and Deed.

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Ideally yes, but how do you avoid getting wasted out of the game?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

-Chalice is a good bait, although if you can cast it for 2, it'll have very real value too. In tempo-hands, Chalice can be an invaluable StP/Brainstorm-killer.

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I've found Chalice at one to be more counterproductive than anything. It shuts off your Needles to stop cantrips and StP. Chalice at two has real value, but it's too easy for them to get rid of it if they need to. I wouldn't leave more than one Chalice in post-board and even that seems iffy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

-Against non-BG builds, Needle should almost always name EE. Against BG builds, you'll rarely want early Needles and instead want to wait for a sitiuation where they need to cast EE, or have cast Deed and name whichever is in play/going to be played.

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Sounds like a good idea. At the very least, you'll force BG builds to blow Deed when they don't want to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

-Try to sneak an equipment into play if at all possible; it'll remove the need to overcommit into mass removal. Of course, if their mass removal of choice is Deed, this is a mootish point. Still, the fact that your equipment generates card advantage whenever you hit the opponent lessens the impact of getting your board wiped.

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The problem with this is that EE at three blows up most/all of your equipment too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

Even with perfect play, you'll lose your share of games though. The decks are on top of the format for a reason. Much of the time though, you should be able to pull it out especially against the 2-3colour versions (and against 4+c versions, you have B2B) by forcing them to answer your medium threats and forcing a big one through. Remember Wakefield - it's not the first fatto that gets you, it's the last. Play accordingly, assume your first plays to get answered, but place some value in them so they force an answer. Then resolve your Sowers, Mulldrifters, Trinket Mages, the cards that put you in a winning position.

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Of course. I don't expect to be better than 50/50 vs either of those decks, but I want to play against them as best as I can. The big problem I have vs both decks is Wasteland. How do you deal with Wasteland, Eldariel?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kuma

Of course. I don't expect to be better than 50/50 vs either of those decks, but I want to play against them as best as I can. The big problem I have vs both decks is Wasteland. How do you deal with Wasteland, Eldariel?

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Usually? I let them. If Landstill wastelands you (most modern builds cut Wasteland), it's a turn more for you to beat down before their big card come in and it allows you to make good out of your excess lands. Sometimes I fetch a Mox with Trinket Mage and if playing against Wastelands, I avoid blowing up my own Cities and may use Sea Drake to set up a basic board where I can play the non-basics and use them immediately guaranteeing mana for few turns.

Mostly though, once you draw some cards, you'll welcome every Wasteland they throw your way as you've got excess lands anyways. Of course, you'll want to try to set the pace of the game; if you keep playing threats, every Wasteland is going to cost them a notable amount of life. Obviously you'll lead with an Island if you don't have Chalice at 1 (and against Landstill, regardless of the scenario).


Overall though, my experience is that once you hit with SoFI, resolve a Mulldrifter or even just play a few turns, you'll have drawn a land or two more than you tend to need and thus I rarely worry about Waste as I can simply draw out of it rather consistently. That said, a two-lander may provoke me to Needle Waste but I don't recall actually making that play in the last months even once. It still produces them mana; treat opponent's Wastes as tempo plays for you, since that's what they ultimately are; they usually give up a turn to try to...accomplish little (as you only play only Islands, they can't cut you off blue and thus can only try to go after your total mana production and eventually you'll have enough blue to ignore them).

So, has any one passed judgment on Esperoza? I tried maxing Seat of the Synod and adding an 11th U land, and it seemed a little clunky all things considered. The card feels like a 2 card combo a lot of the time, and it heavily drains resources under non-ideal situations.

Any one else having similar findings?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

So, has any one passed judgment on Esperoza? I tried maxing Seat of the Synod and adding an 11th U land, and it seemed a little clunky all things considered. The card feels like a 2 card combo a lot of the time, and it heavily drains resources under non-ideal situations.

Any one else having similar findings?

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I think you're pretty much dead on. This was the same conclusion I came to after reading the card. It's nice to know someone arrived at the same place with testing to back it up.

Well, Esperosa functions as nice proxy for Sea Drake. That's about it.

Though to be fair, Sea Drake costs you a ton of tempo in all but the much revered first turn Chrome Mox + Ancient Tomb play as well. Otherwise, you just gave up two land drops and are slowed down a lot by playing the card early.

Atleast with Esperosa, if it get's StPed right away, it didn't really have much of a drawback. Can't say the same about Sea Drake.

I don't think it's "hopeless," it's just resource intensive. Considering Faerie Stompy is often a "boom or bust" kind of deck, and Pestermite isn't that great, explosiveness in place of consistency isn't the worst idea.

Seat of the Synod turning Esperoza into an under costed Waterspout Djinn is kind of sweet.