[Deck] Belcher

Actually i'm running 4 Street Wraith, 2 Grim Monolith and 2 Noxious Revival + the other 52.

/ Lands
1 [U] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Street Wraith

// Spells
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [9E] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
2 [UL] Grim Monolith
2 [NPH] Noxious Revival

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [M10] Pyroclasm
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 2 [LRW] Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor

I can see that most people have moved away from running 2 land, and using dark ritual. I still use two lands, but dark ritual scares me in the deck. What should I replace it with, Street Wraith? I also want to know, if dark ritual leaves, I no longer need mana morphose. What should I replace that with? Here is the list I was going off of, it pritty basic. Thanks.

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens

4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
1 Taiga
1 Bayou

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
3 Tinder Wall
4 mana morphose

I wouldn't run a second land just for access to Dark Ritual, especially when you can just play Pyretic Ritual in its stead. Until someone comes up with a drastically different list, I'd say two colors with 4 flex slots (Manamorphose) is fairly ideal.

@Goldengirl: Why play Grim Monolith instead of Pyretic Ritual? They do the same thing on whichever turn is important, but one adds useful mana and the other does not. I also don't see much reason to play Street Wraith over Gitaxian Probe, seeing as how they do the same thing but one adds to storm while the other does not.

So, replace Dark Ritual with Pyretic Ritual, and take out the mana morphose for street wraith? If yes, do I go down to one Tiaga or stay with 2 land?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thatoneguy

So, replace Dark Ritual with Pyretic Ritual, and take out the mana morphose for street wraith? If yes, do I go down to one Tiaga or stay with 2 land?

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Cut Bayou and Dark Ritual and replace them with Tinder Wall and Pyretic Ritual, the old Manamorphose slot should be the new Chancellor of the Tangle - Street Wraith is awful.

Here's what I played at GP Providence:

4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Rite of Flame
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Land Grant
1 Taiga

4 Xantid Swarm
4 Pyroblast
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Pyroclasm
1 Regrowth

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thefringthing

Here's what I played at GP Providence:

4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Rite of Flame
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Land Grant
1 Taiga

4 Xantid Swarm
4 Pyroblast
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Pyroclasm
1 Regrowth

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Sideboard aside, that is the exact same list I'm running. How'd you do? Good/Bad matchups in this new, exciting metagame of ours?

@Final Fortune: I wouldn't replace spells with non-spells in this deck. Taking out Manamorphose (which adds to storm and fixes mana which is occasionally relevant) with a card that is a slightly better Elvish Spirit Guide makes little sense. If you said to replace Elvish Spirit Guide with it, I'd understand.

Hi all!!! In the actual meta i find terrible problem about how side this deck with the arrival of Mental MIsstep.
I included Noxious revival to minimize it effect but i was meh! Has anybody tested it?

I need advice about how to side in against this MU:

-Black discard
-MUC
-Merfolks

Beside could mental misstep help us? Has anybody teste Gitaxian probe?

For reverence i post my list and SB:

// Lands
1 [U] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Street Wraith

// Spells
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [9E] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
2 [UL] Grim Monolith
2 [NPH] Noxious Revival

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [M10] Pyroclasm
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 2 [LRW] Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor

Help is really needed. Thx!!

I'm amazed that you think Gitaxian Probe even needs to be tested here. There is no reason to play Street Wraith when Gitaxian Probe is not already a four of...

1. It tells you what is in your opponents hand, knowing if they have a Daze or FoW, a Pyroclasm (or some other sideboard hate) or if they have a Hymn they can use if they get one more turn, is invaluable info.

2. It adds to the storm count for 0 mana.

3. It lets you play a 52 card deck same as Street Wraith. (combined with Manamorphose).


It absolutely is an automatic four of as far as I'm concerned. If you can't think of what to cut, I would play it over Street Wraith, since unlike Wraith, it adds to your storm count and tells you your opponent's plan.

Like street wraith is makes mulligan decisions harder. Unlike something like TES you can't spend the first couple turns cantripping and sculpting your hand. We don't have the "oh look, a turn 5 ad nauseam... I guess I win" kind of play. Similarly we can't just peel a time spiral and win. There needs to be a number of cards used to pull off a win.

Unlike street wraith, the probe gets hit by mental misstep. Belcher is one of the few combo decks with as small an amount of one drops as it has in this misstep meta. Adding probe just gives them a target which doesn't need to be there. If in game one you see they have a force of will don't you still have to play pretty much the same game you would otherwise be playing if they didn't have it? That was rhetorical - the answer is yes.

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Originally Posted by evanmartyr

Sideboard aside, that is the exact same list I'm running. How'd you do? Good/Bad matchups in this new, exciting metagame of ours?

@Final Fortune: I wouldn't replace spells with non-spells in this deck. Taking out Manamorphose (which adds to storm and fixes mana which is occasionally relevant) with a card that is a slightly better Elvish Spirit Guide makes little sense. If you said to replace Elvish Spirit Guide with it, I'd understand.

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Mana Morphose is complete garbage, and not running an unconditional, initial mana source in Belcher that synergizes with Chrome Mox is just, well bad. This deck is just 11 threats with the most efficient 49 mana sources available, everything else is just unnecessarily cute shit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Mana Morphose is complete garbage, and not running an unconditional, initial mana source in Belcher that synergizes with Chrome Mox is just, well bad. This deck is just 11 threats with the most efficient 49 mana sources available, everything else is just unnecessarily cute shit.

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I disagree that Manamorphose is "complete garbage". Beyond turn 1, Chancellor of the Tangle is complete garbage. If you want to increase your non-storm hands, be my guest. I have enough problems with 2-3 Spirit Guides in hand that do fuck all with Empty the Warrens, I don't want MORE stormless slots. Manamorphose not only increases your storm count, but also cycles into the goods. I can't count the number of times I have won because of Manamorphose's "draw a card'. And speaking of mana fixing, not only does it fix mana through casting it, but also when imprinted on Chrome Mox it gives you either green or red.

I know where you're coming from wanting more initial mana sources, but it's not an initial mana source beyond turn 1. After that, it's a waste and this deck can't handle that waste. Maybe you're lucky enough to never need more than the first turn, but I often do.

Re: Gitaxian Probe... not a huge fan. Yeah, it cycles, but so often I just look at my opponent's hand and say, wow, I'm fucked. ;) It's a neat card, but it's not the Messiah of Belcher as some people seem to think it is. It also has pretty horrible synergy with Chrome Mox.

@GoldenCid:

Not much you can do in those match-ups. Have you tried testing Pact of Negation vs blue?

Vs. discard, you could try Leyline of Sanctity in the board. More importantly, though, I find vs. a heavy hand disruption deck, you really don't want to mulligan. I know, it sounds fucked up but hear me out. Let's say you mulligan down to five cards looking for a business spell. So, you're on the play, chances are with five cards you can't win; on the draw, they rape your hand of your one business spell, and now you're sitting there with 4 crappy mana cards. Keeping a lackluster 7-card hand seems meh, I agree, but mulling into oblivion and into 2 turns of Duress/ThoughtSeize/Hymn is pretty lame too. At least by not mulling, they leave you with 6 mana spells (if you have no business in hand) and a chance to rip something. I've also been experimenting with Mental Misstep in the board vs discard, but I haven't had many results yet to come to any conclusions. I am sure, though, that mulling down to 4-5 versus a heavy discard deck is not going to advance your chances to win.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MMogg

I disagree that Manamorphose is "complete garbage". Beyond turn 1, Chancellor of the Tangle is complete garbage. If you want to increase your non-storm hands, be my guest. I have enough problems with 2-3 Spirit Guides in hand that do fuck all with Empty the Warrens, I don't want MORE stormless slots. Manamorphose not only increases your storm count, but also cycles into the goods. I can't count the number of times I have won because of Manamorphose's "draw a card'. And speaking of mana fixing, not only does it fix mana through casting it, but also when imprinted on Chrome Mox it gives you either green or red.

I know where you're coming from wanting more initial mana sources, but it's not an initial mana source beyond turn 1. After that, it's a waste and this deck can't handle that waste. Maybe you're lucky enough to never need more than the first turn, but I often do.

Re: Gitaxian Probe... not a huge fan. Yeah, it cycles, but so often I just look at my opponent's hand and say, wow, I'm fucked. ;) It's a neat card, but it's not the Messiah of Belcher as some people seem to think it is. It also has pretty horrible synergy with Chrome Mox.

@GoldenCid:

Not much you can do in those match-ups. Have you tried testing Pact of Negation vs blue?

Vs. discard, you could try Leyline of Sanctity in the board. More importantly, though, I find vs. a heavy hand disruption deck, you really don't want to mulligan. I know, it sounds fucked up but hear me out. Let's say you mulligan down to five cards looking for a business spell. So, you're on the play, chances are with five cards you can't win; on the draw, they rape your hand of your one business spell, and now you're sitting there with 4 crappy mana cards. Keeping a lackluster 7-card hand seems meh, I agree, but mulling into oblivion and into 2 turns of Duress/ThoughtSeize/Hymn is pretty lame too. At least by not mulling, they leave you with 6 mana spells (if you have no business in hand) and a chance to rip something. I've also been experimenting with Mental Misstep in the board vs discard, but I haven't had many results yet to come to any conclusions. I am sure, though, that mulling down to 4-5 versus a heavy discard deck is not going to advance your chances to win.

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The average multiple SG/Chancellor hands divided by being on the play and being on the draw isn't that bad, and while Chancellor is a terrible top deck, in all honesty so is Manamorphose, but at least drawing Chancellor and Chrome Mox in the oppenning hand is the nut, nut draw. Honestly, I'd rather play Grim Monolith than Manamorphose any day, but I don't think you can pass on another IMS resolving Tinder Walls. And Frankly, you could probably run Crimson Kobolds in that slot and still do fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

The average multiple SG/Chancellor hands divided by being on the play and being on the draw isn't that bad, and while Chancellor is a terrible top deck, in all honesty so is Manamorphose, but at least drawing Chancellor and Chrome Mox in the oppenning hand is the nut, nut draw. Honestly, I'd rather play Grim Monolith than Manamorphose any day, but I don't think you can pass on another IMS resolving Tinder Walls. And Frankly, you could probably run Crimson Kobolds in that slot and still do fine.

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I can see how you would think drawing a card you can't cast and drawing something that cycles would make you think they are both blanks.

I was fairly excited about Gitaxian Probe, and still am. I'll miss the versatility of Manamorphose, but Probe is a fair replacement for a number of reasons. Probe requires no mana investment, while still replacing itself. It can bait Mental Missteps, which is occasionally relevant (about as occasionally as Manamorphose's mana fixing is). And that's about it. I'll have to do some more testing to figure out how often I need the mana fixing, or the ability to have a dual color Chrome Mox, but I suspect that Probe will take at least two slots in the maindeck.

Yeah, not really our fault, but the fact that we're arguing about a single slot in the maindeck and not searching for a new engine is kind of disappointing.

There was a thread on themanadrain.com that was working on a list that ran 4 Pact of Negation for protection and 4 Summone's Pact to act as an additional four copies of ESG. Granted, it got rid of Empty the Warrens in favor of broken Vintage crap, but switching to a much more suicide-ey deck that tries to boost the turn 1 win percentage as high as possible and/or win turn 2 with the Pact triggers on the stack could be fairly fun. I'm not sure if an even more suicide-ey version of belcher is really possible without them going back to the original wording of Mox Diamond, though, but it might be worth brainstorming a bit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slobad23

Like street wraith is makes mulligan decisions harder. Unlike something like TES you can't spend the first couple turns cantripping and sculpting your hand. We don't have the "oh look, a turn 5 ad nauseam... I guess I win" kind of play. Similarly we can't just peel a time spiral and win. There needs to be a number of cards used to pull off a win.

Unlike street wraith, the probe gets hit by mental misstep. Belcher is one of the few combo decks with as small an amount of one drops as it has in this misstep meta. Adding probe just gives them a target which doesn't need to be there. If in game one you see they have a force of will don't you still have to play pretty much the same game you would otherwise be playing if they didn't have it? That was rhetorical - the answer is yes.

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I'm very confused by your post.

1.) Actually, knowing whether your opponent has a FoW or Daze or Pyroclasm in hand, discard, and whether they have a fast hand or a slow hand absolutely impacts how you should play your hand, or when you should go off. If you know they have counters, then you can fairly easily bait their FoW with something like Burning Wish, or you can play around Daze for your key spells. If you know they have no counters, you can go for a much bigger and riskier play. If you know they have Pyroclasm, you know to avoid going for Warrens, that information is huge.

2.) Probe unlike Street Wraith, adds to your Storm count and also gives you valuable info.

3.) If the Mental Misstep Probe instead of Tinder Wall, or Rite of Flame or Grim Monolith, GOOD. That's what you want them to do.


Gitaxian Probe is a fantastic addition to Belcher. We should be playing it as a four of.

I skimmed over this forum starting when people added Gitaxian Probe to the deck. I'm getting a lot of mixed reviews between that, Street Wraith, and Manamorphose, aka the cantrips cyclers of the deck. I've extensively tested this deck since I got a playset of LEDs last week. Here is my opinion on each of these cards:

Gitaxian Probe: It's a free cantrip, look at your opponent's hand if you're clear to beat off, and add 1 to the storm count. Instant 4-of.

Manamorphose: I've never understood this card's placement in this archetype, especially with the release of Street Wraith and 1-land belcher. Not only is it a conditional cycle card (you need two mana in the pool to filter through it), it doesn't add anything to the pool, which is what everyone wants in this deck. Sure it gives color versatility, but when this deck turned into 1-land belcher, it lost black, so the color change isn't needed anymore. I cut this very shortly after I noticed it didn't do anything useful.

Street Wraith: Like Gitaxian Probe, it's a free cantrip, except it doesn't add to the spell count. This way, though, it can't be countered like how G Probe is weak to Mental Misstep. Most people won't look into these differences that much, but I felt like I needed to say that. Having free deck thinners like this will make 1st and 2nd turn kills a lot more consistent, and I wasn't happy with just 4 cantrips in the deck. So, I need to make room for this guy.

After many goldfishes, I noticed about 2 or 3 of the 50 or so times I ran into color issues pertaining to Tinder Wall. This is primarily a red deck, and not having the Elvish Spirit Guide or Land Grant for the Tiaga can make this deck very awkward if I need to start with Tinder Wall. Plus, I wanted to keep down my 1cc to Rite of Flame and G Probe, since turn 0 counterspells need to be at a minimum. I tried a few times replacing TW with Street Wraith, just to test my prediction of the 8 cantrip consistency.

This is where the die hard Manamorphose fans call me a hypocrite. All I have to say is try this build out a few times, and maybe you'll at least see where I'm coming from when I say that Manamorphose doesn't actually do anything, especially when more of your cards are red and you don't need to fix yourself on certain colors anymore:

4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Rite of Flame
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Seething Song
4x Land Grant

4x Burning Wish
4x Goblin Charbelcher
3x Empty the Warrens

4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Street Wraith

1x Taiga

Street Wraith doesn't add to your storm count. Manamorphose does.

Street Wraith doesn't fix your mana (which you admit is sometimes relevent). Manamorphose does.

You can Chrome Mox a Manamorphose to be able to produce both green and red. You would never want to Chrome Mox a Street Wraith to produce black.

Street Wraith costs two life. Manamorphose doesn't. This is sometimes relevent especially since we added Probe and especially against hyperaggressive decks like burn or sligh.

If Manamorphose doesn't do anything, Street Wraith does even less. I personally think Cantrips are invaluable to this deck, to increase the probability of you getting into your key mana producers and your win conditions, but Manamorphose does that just as well as Street Wraith and has many other useful functions on top of that.

I don't see any good reason to play Street Wraith over Manamorphose. I think Gitaxian Probe is an automatic four of in every list. I think 95% of lists should also play Manamorphose. After that, if you can find the room for Street Wraith, by all means, play that as well.

Who cares about your cantrips getting countered? Worry about your Rite of Flames, Seething Songs, Burning Wishes, and Charbelchers getting countered, not your cantrips. Your opponent has better things to counter than your cantrips.

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Originally Posted by oblivion4560

Plus, I wanted to keep down my 1cc to Rite of Flame and G Probe, since turn 0 counterspells need to be at a minimum. I tried a few times replacing TW with Street Wraith, just to test my prediction of the 8 cantrip consistency.

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So now every time they draw a Mental Misstep, one of your best Rituals is a complete blank? That seems like a huge mistake.

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

I can see how you would think drawing a card you can't cast and drawing something that cycles would make you think they are both blanks.

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If you're relying on Manamorphose cycling into a key spell to win on turn 1 or turn 2 then you're playing Belcher completely wrong, and if you're top decking after having your first threat countered they're both pretty bad draws. The deck wants cards that consistently produce mana, not cards that add unnecessary variance.