[OLD] UGr Threshold

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Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund

I don't like playing only 18 lands while wanting to consistently hit as many lands as possible to play and abuse Swans (e.g. hitting the first 5 land drops to then have a backup Bolt (aka. Anc) in case they remove the Swans). I've played 20 lands in my last version and have recently moved down to 19, but my build is also more controlish than Adans so you could possibly also get away with playing 18.



The trick with Conflagerate is that you can discard it to your last copy of Chain of Plasma making it cost only 2 Red mana.
I agree that it is worse than Lightning Storm though as it is close to un-hardcastable whereas Lightning Storm still can be used as a crappy Bolt from time to time.
Adan mainly wants to play Conflagerate over L. Storm because he fears that you might fizzle due to not having enough lands. He has a point here, especially if you're playing against something with Life from the Loam, but as you only have to redirect the last copy of Chain of Plasma to your opponent's dome (17), swing with Swans (13) and then play L. Storm with 5 lands discarded (10, 0), you should always have enough lands as backup to neuter your opponents. As a last resort, you can still kill your opponent the next time you untap with all those additional burn spells you have drawn.

I think the discussion over Swans Thresh should be held in its own thread (here) though, especially since the lists differ from the NQG norm by quite a margin (e.g. 8 burn spells but with Counterbalance).
I'm also promoting cutting Nimble Mongoose because you reach Threshold very slowly (no Predict, you want to save your Burn spells most of the time) leaving only the standard Ug aggro control shell (cantrips/CounterTop/Goyfs etc) in common with NQG.
On the same account, I'm still sold on Daze not having a place in this deck: you want to develop your manabase and at least my list plays out much more controlish than your average NQG/r making the tempo setback quite harsh. Also, I've found that everyone automatically plays around Daze when they see that you're playing something with Cantrips and Blue Duals turning them into a virtual Time Walk even if you don't play them any more.

For reference, here's my list (still fluctuating heavily though):

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/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (19)
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Volcanic Island
    3 Tropical Island
    4 Island

// Creatures (8)
    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Swans of Bryn Argoll

// Cantrips (11)
    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Sensei's Divining Top

// Permission (8)
    4 Counterbalance
    4 Force of Will

// Tempo (5)
    2 Repeal
    3 Fire/Ice

// Burn (9)
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain of Plasma
    1 Lightning Storm

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
    3 Blood Moon
    4 Tormod's Crypt
    4 Pyroclasm
    2 Trygon Predator
    2 Krosan Grip

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You can absolutely play 18 lands with Swan. The only time I have ever played 19 was in a build with 4x Wasteland. 18 is still too high in my oppinion. I also believe 4x Swans is too many. And why the heck are you not running Nimble Mongoose? Effectively you have dropped your beater count to 4 which is way way too low. 11 burn spells?! Holy crap thats a lot. And whats with Repeal? Where would you actually use that card? Its neat but doesn't actually do anything in particular. I'm not necessarily saying that Fire/Ice and repeal are bad, but in Legacy without Goose your going to have a hard time killing someone via any other method than comboing.

Hello guys,

I was reading this thread all along but I couldn't find what I was looking for (or maybe I just passed it through).

Which matchups do you think are bad for UGr Thresh? Anyone in special? I am building a sideboard here and any tips are highly welcome :)

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Originally Posted by Kainan

Hello guys,

I was reading this thread all along but I couldn't find what I was looking for (or maybe I just passed it through).

Which matchups do you think are bad for UGr Thresh? Anyone in special? I am building a sideboard here and any tips are highly welcome :)

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Ichorid and Enchantress, to name two. Tormod's Crypt is decent against Ichorid, and if you expect Enchantress, I would be playing the white splash for Serenity and Gaddock Teeg (Serenity > Teeg is really strong against Enchantress). I've heard that landstill isn't that great of a MU either, but I wouldn't know firsthand.

Oops, that's shitty then, since in my field there are quite a lot Ichorids and Enchantress ^^

I was planning to run the red version, because I have the Volcanic Islands and not the Tundras and because I like the tempo strategy. Nonetheless, if I will auto-lose to those decks, I guess I should run a variant.

Anyway, any tips for making a sideboard plan against those matchups?

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Originally Posted by raharu

Ichorid and Enchantress, to name two. Tormod's Crypt is decent against Ichorid, and if you expect Enchantress, I would be playing the white splash for Serenity and Gaddock Teeg (Serenity > Teeg is really strong against Enchantress). I've heard that landstill isn't that great of a MU either, but I wouldn't know firsthand.

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Trygon Predator rocks against Enchantress and can be played in actually every variant of Thresh since Ug are the basic-colors of Thresh... No need for White here.

Well, but I guess you agree that Serenity is a game-breaker against Enchantress, right? ^^

I am running a Trygon MD and 2 on the sideboard. However, I am still worried about Enchantress and specially Ichorid matchup.

For you to have more info, here is my current sideboard:

2 Trygon Predator
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Loaming Shaman
2 Hydroblast
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm

Predator is there against Enchantress and Affinity mainly.
Crypt is there for GY hate.
Shaman is there for Ichorid and further GY hate in case it's needed.
Hydroblast against Dragon Stompy and Gobs.
Pithing Needle hits Aether Vial and other activated abilities I may encounter.
Finally, Pyroclasm against aggro, Ichorid and, why not, Enchantress.

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Originally Posted by Kainan

Anyway, any tips for making a sideboard plan against those matchups?

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In addition to Trygon Predator (which is good against a variety of decks), you have access to Tranquil Domain (which is specifically good for hating Enchantress). Crypt is basically your only hate for Ichorid, unless you want to bring in narrow cards like Heap Doll or Night Soil or something. Against both Enchantress and Ichorid, Engineered Explosives is a decent option to have. However, it's difficult to tell you exactly how/what to side without seeing your maindeck.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Kainan

For you to have more info, here is my current sideboard:

2 Trygon Predator
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Loaming Shaman
2 Hydroblast
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm

Predator is there against Enchantress and Affinity mainly.
Crypt is there for GY hate.
Shaman is there for Ichorid and further GY hate in case it's needed.
Hydroblast against Dragon Stompy and Gobs.
Pithing Needle hits Aether Vial and other activated abilities I may encounter.
Finally, Pyroclasm against aggro, Ichorid and, why not, Enchantress.

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Your sideboard doesn't look very focused at all. If Ichorid and Enchantress are genuine concerns, I would suggest:

3 Tranquil Domain
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Hydroblast
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pyroclasm

Or, if your field is more diverse, you could consider just giving up on a specific negative matchup (like Ichorid for example, which is very difficult for Thresh to win), and just focus on improving the matchups that are winnable.

Oh, indeed. Sorry. Here is my MD:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Trygon Predator

4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Rushing River

2 Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard (again):

2 Trygon Predator
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Loaming Shaman
2 Hydroblast
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm

EDIT:

If I am giving up the Ichorid matchup, then I will not run Thresh, hehe. My metagame, while varied, has a lot of Ichorids running rampant. Maybe I just a better idea to drop Thresh and run something else (I don't want this tho) :(

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Originally Posted by Kainan

Oh, indeed. Sorry. Here is my MD:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Trygon Predator

4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Rushing River

2 Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard (again):

2 Trygon Predator
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Loaming Shaman
2 Hydroblast
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm

EDIT:

If I am giving up the Ichorid matchup, then I will not run Thresh, hehe. My metagame, while varied, has a lot of Ichorids running rampant. Maybe I just a better idea to drop Thresh and run something else (I don't want this tho) :(

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Then play NQG/b with Extirpate + Yixlid Jailer ftw.

Hey guys,

Well, finally UGr Thresh, even in my metagame, which is quite hard to actually manage to win with TempoThresh. Nonetheless, I finished 2nd and I am very happy. It's quite incredible how this deck can just win, even when you are almost defeated. The list I used is the one posted above. I won a Bayou Black Bordered :P

I only lost to a weird UGB Control deck, but because I had no luck finiding a red mana source.

Anyway, I won 2-0 vs UG Thresh. I won 2-0 vs Angel Stompy. Won 2-0 vs Faerie Stompie. Won 2-1 vs Goblins. Lost 1-2 to the afore mentioned control deck. Won 2-0 vs 43land (actually, was 30 something lands).

The best card: Stifle. Honour mention to Spell Snare.

The worst card: Maybe, in this metagame, Rushing River.

Funny thing of the day: I used FoW only 3 times in 6 rounds. Funny... Actually one guys asked me if I actually run FoW :(

Well, I hope you have the same luck and success I had with the deck too!

Yup, I've seen your list on Legacy-France; this random Trygon Predator maindecked looks quite hot to me. :)

I was playing something mora akin to the "original" Canadian Thresh, but I'll try it with the 2/3 Flyer which prolly appears to be a really nice choice in the metagame.
The weird control deck was a Tog variant methinks...

Oh, and actually, my sb's looking like that :
3 Null Rod
4 Trygon Predator
4 Pyroclasm
4 Leyline on Singularity

The Leylines are awesome at stopping Empty the damend Warrens and Zombie Tokens. And they're Blue, bonus. :) But the Aggro Loam matchup isn't all that good... =\ Well, congratulations for your second place, especially while sailing across a rough field at Magic Corporation.

And I would like to add : Spell Snare is a truly golden card. Winning Goyfs war before they happen and countering that Survival or anything is really nice; at 1 mana the card is costed perfect for the deck... Hell, while testing it did buy me games against Stax variants (Wg or Wr) in the form of countering the critical CotV set at 1. So, maybe Stifle does mess actually with people mana, and coupled with Wastelands they sure are über cool, but Spell Snare kinda reads "U : Counter target bomb. Don't lose life or any other cards."

Just some thoughts, sorry if it's not organized very well...

Why Null Rod?

Is there an abundance of Affinity?

Actually, there was 2 tournament in a row when some guy not playing Legacy until then smashed the field to pieces with an Affinity (Springleaf Drum version); he won duals with an extended deck, that was somewhat confusing...

But Null Rod is also nice to stop the Artefact Mana of fast combo decks, and like, against generic Storm (or Belcher :p which get fucked by Null Rod but hey) that kills with EtW, I board out Bolts and some Fire/Ice to get Rods and Leyline. Shutting off the Petals, Moxes and LEDs is sometimes just what you need in order to win.
And it's quite the beating against those weird people playing Affinity, sure.

That being said, any advices on a better card for this slot ? I'm open, I'll not eat you guys :)

I'll post my maindeck, if you don't mind :

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// NAME : [T1.5] Thrash
// CREATOR : frolll (magic-ville.com)
// FORMAT : Classic
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
2 Serendib Efreet
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
SB: 4 Trygon Predator
SB: 4 Leyline of Singularity
SB: 4 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Null Rod

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Enjoy and discuss =)

Chalice would be able to shut of artifact mana for zero. It would take out Moxen, Petals, and LED's a full two turns before Null Rod.

I'd drop the Efreets for some bounce spells or even maindeck Pithing Needles (depends on the metagame).

Those two slots are normally spent for metagame cards, so if you can let us know what's your metagame (roughly) then that would help us to give you some useful tips :)

Well, thanks a lot for the input guys, but now, I go get some much needed sleep...
Chalice of the Void has the downfall of not being castable at more than 0... And it's kinda like Leyline, if you don't have it in your opening 7, it's not that great. But that deserves test. ;)

The meta is a non-meta if I may say this that way... Lots of "budget aggro" an "casual combo"; the Efreet were there mainly because the are in fact Blue so they pitch to FoW and sometimes the additionnal clock is nice (or just the Flying aspect of things). I know it was a Rushing River and a Wipe Away in the firsts lists, but these ones missed punch to me. Affinity is quite high, Ichorid too, since I suppose it's cheap. They're is not all that much of Wastelands, so the manabase kinda works, even if it does look terrible. :p

That's it for now.

Next "main" concern : Is Counterbalance something to run or not (either in the md or sb) ?

I always say "no" to Counterbalance in UGr Thresh. However, some lists do run Counterbalance and have some success, but normally you'll see more TempoThresh winning a tournament than a UGr CB-Top ones.

If your meta is full of aggro decks and Ichorid, I would run EE maindeck or even Werebear. If you think you can win aggro decks without EE, then drop these and go for Echoing Truth for Ichorid matchup. Dredge is a nearly impossible matchup for UGr: We do not have a clock faster than they have, counters do nothing, burn sucks, Stifle generally sucks too. The deck is useless against them. Echoing Truth can help in this matchup maindeck and prepare a good sideboard strategy.

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Originally Posted by Kainan

I always say "no" to Counterbalance in UGr Thresh. However, some lists do run Counterbalance and have some success, but normally you'll see more TempoThresh winning a tournament than a UGr CB-Top ones.

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That is because there is no reason to run UGr "CBalance" Thresh over UGw or UGb "CBalance" Thresh since it has got nothing superior to UGw or UGb so far. This may change with the inclusion of the random "Topdeck -> I win"-combo Swans of Bryn Argoll + Chain of Plasma (+Lightning Storm/Conflagrate).

MoonThresh might be a exception, but due to the fact that it is a very situational metagame choice that needs a lot of setup from Turn 1 on, I won't count that.

It may win some games, but since UWb Cunning Landstill is becoming more and more popular than the 4color variants, I would not run MoonThresh anymore.

Ichoid is indeed a bad matchup. The only way to fix this is running a playset of Leyline of the Void in the SB, but that means you are wasting 4 slots just to beat 1 matchup.

But whatever, there's no deck that can beat everything.

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Originally Posted by frolll

The meta is a non-meta if I may say this that way... Lots of "budget aggro" an "casual combo"

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That doesn't sound anything like the tournament scene in Belgium. If you get tired playing against such decks, you can always head over to Antwerp on tuesday evenings. Anyway, chalice is far too narrow and only useful in match-ups that are already in your favour. If you want to play the tempo version with stifle, wasteland and spell snare, play without counterbalance. Otherwise, use it.

I tested the swans version (almost exactly Adan's list) yesterday against goblins, white thres, dragon stompy and aggro-loam and so far I like it. I also found the mongoose underwhelming though. I'm thinking of adding black to the list to add confidant instead of mongoose. The mana base would then be:
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground sea
2 [A] Island (1)

The black splash would also allow to sideboard jailer/extirpate instead of crypt. So what is the opinion about this?

Taliking about small semi-private events in Brussels and Wallonie... Well, I know in Flanders it's much more competitive. ;) Maybe I'll travel all the way to Antwerp someday, but not anytime soon, sadly...


I'll test the Swans build, since having a combo finish as an out against Zooish decks seems really really strong. And I just let go of the Counterbalance idea, since I don't want to run Moon Thresh nor Ugw ones. Thanks for advice, people. =)