Miracle Control

I expect the RIP version to run into trouble in mirrors after the M14 rule change. The ability to pressure an opposing Jace will become much more significant, and RIP/Helm seems least able to do it. Miracles isn't popular enough for that to kill the version, but it is a downside.




Although immediately after posting that, I realized that the punishing fire version won't be able to pressure a Jace either with RIP in play. So maybe it balances out.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

They are in the same bucket in the context that PFire doesn't interact with any of these combo decks. We could create another bucket and put Aluren in there, since PFire interacts with that combo... somewhat. Under that context, these PFires could have been O-Ring, or extra counterspell.

My prediction is that Miracle will split into 3 versions:
1. Rip-Helm
2. PFire
3. non-PFire, includes Snapcaster

We either hate the graveyard utilization or join it, no in-between. If a version of Miracle doesn't utilize Rip or PFire or Snapcaster, it's bound to fail, in my humble speculation.

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I agree. After playtesting a bunch with Punishing Miracles I am confident that people will adopt it as a viable strategy for U/W control. In my experience (and as has been mentioned above) the combo matchups have been a little more difficult but BGx matchups have improved substantially. I have yet to playtest against Deathblade very much, and I am saddened to see that lists are taking out the Confidants for maindeck Geists as it makes things more difficult, but on the whole I expect PFires to be effective against Esper lists as well.

To combat the combo matchups I am considering putting a couple Spell Pierces in the maindeck again. Storm combo is actually not that bad a matchup for the PFires list. The most difficult combo matchup are the Show and Tell variants, which are almost unbeatable game 1. Post board my Punishing Miracles list has the following for Show and Tell:

4x Counterbalance
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Surgical Extraction

I think that should be enough to put the matchup on even ground for the Miracles player, if not in our advantage slightly.

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Originally Posted by blacknapkins

I agree. After playtesting a bunch with Punishing Miracles I am confident that people will adopt it as a viable strategy for U/W control. In my experience (and as has been mentioned above) the combo matchups have been a little more difficult but BGx matchups have improved substantially. I have yet to playtest against Deathblade very much, and I am saddened to see that lists are taking out the Confidants for maindeck Geists as it makes things more difficult, but on the whole I expect PFires to be effective against Esper lists as well.

To combat the combo matchups I am considering putting a couple Spell Pierces in the maindeck again. Storm combo is actually not that bad a matchup for the PFires list. The most difficult combo matchup are the Show and Tell variants, which are almost unbeatable game 1. Post board my Punishing Miracles list has the following for Show and Tell:

4x Counterbalance
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Surgical Extraction

I think that should be enough to put the matchup on even ground for the Miracles player, if not in our advantage slightly.

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I've been able to dominate combo with my list - http://www.berzerk.org/legacy-uwr-pu...g-miracles.jpg

EDIT: except sneak attack

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Originally Posted by sauce

I've been able to dominate combo with my list - http://www.berzerk.org/legacy-uwr-pu...g-miracles.jpg

EDIT: except sneak attack

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I'm highly suspicious of that manabase. Seems to me like you're missing out on one of the big reasons to play this deck (lots of basics), and casting UU spells on time seems highly suspect.

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

I'm highly suspicious of that manabase. Seems to me like you're missing out on one of the big reasons to play this deck (lots of basics), and casting UU spells on time seems highly suspect.

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the deck has 8 fetchlands which all fetch U plus 4 duals that tap for U and 3 basics that tap for U. it actually has one more U source in colonnade if needed.
I have not had a bad draw with the deck where I kept a hand that was not going to cast CB in my hand on t2. plus you have top etc.
I am not saying the manabase is not suspect but it works, just give it a try.

sauce, that may seem like a lot, but it is significantly less blue than non-punishing fire builds run. I don't blame alphastryk for questioning it. I played four matches with kaosjr's punishing list and found the manabase frightening.

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Originally Posted by oarsman

sauce, that may seem like a lot, but it is significantly less blue than non-punishing fire builds run. I don't blame alphastryk for questioning it. I played four matches with kaosjr's punishing list and found the manabase frightening.

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im not denying it's worse than the UWr (for red blasts in sb) list, but i may have been luckier than normal. I just find it okay to draw the groves early since it only hurts vs combo where you dont get to plate turn 2 cb.
EDIT:
also I changed -1 karakas +1 c.colonnade from kaosjr's list as well as some other cards like going up to 4 JTMS

The manabase in my version definitely plays out differently than others. I find myself playing basics early to stabilize and then their wastelands don't really matter once you jam your jace with the first non basic of the match. Alternatively you can just run out non basics since most wasteland decks can't punish you very much mana wise outside of RUG which isn't very popular ATM.

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Originally Posted by kaosjr

The manabase in my version definitely plays out differently than others. I find myself playing basics early to stabilize and then their wastelands don't really matter once you jam your jace with the first non basic of the match. Alternatively you can just run out non basics since most wasteland decks can't punish you very much mana wise outside of RUG which isn't very popular ATM.

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Yeah, all the lands that don't make blue scare me against combo. I have 4 and I've been losing enough hands to Karakas, Plains, etc. not making UU on time, and you have 3 more UU spells and 1 less U land, along with colonnade that doesn't make U right away. Maybe there's less combo in your metagame, so it might be fine there.

I have definitely found that wasteland decks can punish you pretty hard if you stumble at all - I'm likely to run into some combination of DnT, Goblins, Maverick, and Loam at least twice every week, but maybe my LGS just has a disproportionate number of wastelands?

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

Yeah, all the lands that don't make blue scare me against combo. I have 4 and I've been losing enough hands to Karakas, Plains, etc. not making UU on time. Maybe there's less combo in your metagame, so it might be fine there.

I have definitely found that wasteland decks can punish you pretty hard if you stumble at all - I'm likely to run into some combination of DnT, Goblins, Maverick, and Loam at least twice every week, but maybe my LGS just has a disproportionate number of wastelands?

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I would play Reanimator or AggroLoam w/ CoTV main in that meta.

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Originally Posted by sauce

I would play Reanimator or AggroLoam w/ CoTV main in that meta.

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Playing Loam mirrors sounds absolutely miserable. I've been doing just fine with a RIP Miracles list, so I see no reason to change it up.

part of this deck power is its mana base stability and another part is Blood Moon (way better than Back to Basics, because it shuts off even new lands and new fetchlands)

so aggressivity (sidely, at least) on Lands is definitly something that has been proven succesfully with this deck, and it's part of its power.

Punishing Fire doesn't allow you to be any aggressive on that side. To me, a huge loss. If PWs are all that problem (and they are) we should start playing some Pithing Needle

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Originally Posted by Poron

part of this deck power is its mana base stability and another part is Blood Moon (way better than Back to Basics, because it shuts off even new lands and new fetchlands)

so aggressivity (sidely, at least) on Lands is definitly something that has been proven succesfully with this deck, and it's part of its power.

Punishing Fire doesn't allow you to be any aggressive on that side. To me, a huge loss. If PWs are all that problem (and they are) we should start playing some Pithing Needle

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You're going to want to use that pithing needle on yourself when opponent plays Bob or Delver though. Plus Abrupt decay is a card.

matter of strategies.

Against BUG I only work to resolve a single Blood Moon, from that point, the first sweeper is gg (I play 6)
The last problem with that deck is Liliana and Jace. Leyline of Sanctity helps a lot thought is definitly not enough

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Originally Posted by Poron

matter of strategies.

Against BUG I only work to resolve a single Blood Moon, from that point, the first sweeper is gg (I play 6)
The last problem with that deck is Liliana and Jace. Leyline of Sanctity helps a lot thought is definitly not enough

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all those problems are solved by playing punishing fire (vs BUG)

A card that gets totally screwed by anything that takes the graveyard and by the most common land ever: Wasteland

Tarmogoyf would still be 4/5 5/6 because of the lack of Rest in Peace.

I can't get myself comfortable with Punishing Fire in Miracle

- mana base totally screwed
- a whole, very reliable strategy, Blood Moon, screwed
- Moongose+Goyfs pops back up as threaths differently than against RiP lists.

Punishing Fire is good in decks that want to use themselves the graveyard. Snapcaster Mage based ones or Jund that packs lot of Moongose/Goyfs.
PF is also perfect in aggro Loam because they abuse of the graveyard and they can recover their Burnillows from Wastelands.

We can't and we don't use the graveyard at all. Rather our strongest WC resides on a grave-hate card.

I'm not sure why everyone is so terrified of wasteland. Just bait them into wasting some other land like tundra or karakas. If they're saving their waste for you're grove then you're also perfectly fine with that as well.

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Originally Posted by kaosjr

I'm not sure why everyone is so terrified of wasteland. Just bait them into wasting some other land like tundra or karakas. If they're saving their waste for you're grove then you're also perfectly fine with that as well.

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Also, play enough lands, I only lost to wasteland when it was 3-4, never lost to 1-2 with this deck.

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Originally Posted by Poron

We can't and we don't use the graveyard at all. Rather our strongest WC resides on a grave-hate card.

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If you can just stop being self-centered for one second, and then correct your English sentence to: I can't and I don't use the graveyard at all. Rather my strongest WC resides on a grave-hate card. You name is not we, you don't stand for We.

Because apparently, if you learn to read, other people have done quite well and wrote tournament reports when they have RiP in the SB, or none at all.

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Originally Posted by kaosjr

I'm not sure why everyone is so terrified of wasteland. Just bait them into wasting some other land like tundra or karakas. If they're saving their waste for you're grove then you're also perfectly fine with that as well.

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First off, if you don't have a healthy respect for Wasteland in a 3 color list with no land recursion, I'm not sure you should be taken seriously by me or anyone else. Also, if they are playing Jund and its past turn 3, I'd say they aren't gonna take your Tundra bait seriously...unless they have the same misguided lack of respect for the card as well. Or they're stupid.

One more thing, if you are fine with them hitting your Grove, How do you plan on dealing with the Lilianas they resolve?

-ABC

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

First off, if you don't have a healthy respect for Wasteland in a 3 color list with no land recursion, I'm not sure you should be taken seriously by me or anyone else. Also, if they are playing Jund and its past turn 3, I'd say they aren't gonna take your Tundra bait seriously...unless they have the same misguided lack of respect for the card as well. Or they're stupid.

One more thing, if you are fine with them hitting your Grove, How do you plan on dealing with the Lilianas they resolve?

-ABC

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Btw, there are other ways to trigger PFire, plow their dude, they gain life with DRS, batterskull, jitte.
Just saying, you can get PFire back sometimes w/o grove.

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

Yeah, all the lands that don't make blue scare me against combo. I have 4 and I've been losing enough hands to Karakas, Plains, etc. not making UU on time, and you have 3 more UU spells and 1 less U land, along with colonnade that doesn't make U right away. Maybe there's less combo in your metagame, so it might be fine there.

I have definitely found that wasteland decks can punish you pretty hard if you stumble at all - I'm likely to run into some combination of DnT, Goblins, Maverick, and Loam at least twice every week, but maybe my LGS just has a disproportionate number of wastelands?

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I played in a local tournament recently and the Punishing Fires were amazing every time I saw them. I played against Jund, Traditional Reanimator and 2x Deathblade decks. Against Jund I won games off of the board control of PFire alone, despite my opponent's attempts to wasteland me out of the game (one game she hit me with 3 wastelands by turn 10 or so). The 2-3 Lilianna of the Veil she resolved were all burned out of the game by PFire in a matter of a couple turns.

The PFires were again amazing against Deathblade. Both opponents stopped playing any burnable creatures (which is quite a few in that deck) once they saw I had access to repeatable removal. One of my opponent's, before I had played a PFire, thought he was clear to play a Jace. He brainstormed with Jace, and passed the turn. I played a Grove of the Burnwillows, burned Jace with a Fire from my hand, brought it back with the Grove and killed Jace. He had only one turn before I had cleaned up the board again.

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Originally Posted by sauce

Btw, there are other ways to trigger PFire, plow their dude, they gain life with DRS, batterskull, jitte.
Just saying, you can get PFire back sometimes w/o grove.

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I agree with you, but you don't want to just go tossing away a Grove to a Waste because there are sometimes other (albeit less effective, and some are just bad) ways to get back a burn spell that's crap on it's own...If anything, Punishing Grove combo should be the one in the sb, not the Rest in Peace.

-ABC

EDIT::: BTW, please don't construe this by thinking I am saying the combo is bad; it's not. It's just only really good in a couple matches. However, outside of the few matches it's good against, non-recurring L. Bolts can be just as good/better than the combo.

Again, if they're not wastelanding your other lands as they wait for a grove you are perfectly fine with that. Also this means you are keeping your karakas around as well. Even if they immediately waste your grove you are getting an extra use out of your fire.

Here is a video of me playing Punishing Miracles vs Junk Maverick. You can kind of see how wastelands work here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8zJj2NRQvg
Also, you can see how games go when you do not draw Terminus after going through about a 1/3rd of your deck :-)

Does anyone happen to have a video of miracles vs jund?

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Originally Posted by sauce

Here is a video of me playing Punishing Miracles vs Junk Maverick. You can kind of see how wastelands work here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8zJj2NRQvg
Also, you can see how games go when you do not draw Terminus after going through about a 1/3rd of your deck :-)

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I'll admit that I might be biased, but I didn't really see the Punishing Fires doing much work at all in any of these games. The only game that it might have helped was the first, but between Wastelands on your R sources and KotR quickly growing too large, it never really had a chance to get going. What won you the last two games was good old fashioned Miracles Terminus/Jace/Swords action (with Taigo helping a bit).

In the first game, I did notice that you missed an opportunity to get Jace down earlier on a little more favorable board. Around 2:50, you could have Punishing Fire'd the KotR. He then would have protected with Mom, allowing you to untap, Jace-bounce the KotR, and be able to untap with Jace in play. This is slightly better because you then would have been able to bounce the KotR again and kill the Mom with the Punishing Fire once he goes to protect. Your draws weren't great, but that might have taken some of the earlier pressure away.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I'll admit that I might be biased, but I didn't really see the Punishing Fires doing much work at all in any of these games. The only game that it might have helped was the first, but between Wastelands on your R sources and KotR quickly growing too large, it never really had a chance to get going. What won you the last two games was good old fashioned Miracles Terminus/Jace/Swords action (with Taigo helping a bit).

In the first game, I did notice that you missed an opportunity to get Jace down earlier on a little more favorable board. Around 2:50, you could have Punishing Fire'd the KotR. He then would have protected with Mom, allowing you to untap, Jace-bounce the KotR, and be able to untap with Jace in play. This is slightly better because you then would have been able to bounce the KotR again and kill the Mom with the Punishing Fire once he goes to protect. Your draws weren't great, but that might have taken some of the earlier pressure away.

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part of the game, you dont always draw pfires/grove just like you dont always draw rip/helm. multiples of pfire is better than multiple of rip imo unless you're actually setting up the combo.
i think grove/pfires is overall a better combo against the current metagame than rip/helm. obv rip/helm win instantly and it's a different type of combo, i just feel like giving pfires a good test is worth it for me.

Hey I am building a list and was trying to think outside of the box and get some new things in there also I am new to miracles so I need some constructive criticism on helping me build it here is my list right now

Artifact (4)
4xSensei's Divining Top

Enchantment (3)
3xCounterbalance

Instant (21)
4xBrainstorm
3xDaze
4xForce of Will
3xSpell Pierce
3xStifle
4xSwords to Plowshares

Planeswalker (3)
3xJace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorcery (7)
3xEntreat the Angels
4xTerminus

Land (22)
2xArid Mesa
4xFlooded Strand
3xIsland
1xKarakas
2xPlains
2xScalding Tarn
4xTundra
4xWasteland

I added waste and stifle to punish their mana; and with those and spell pierce I feel daze becomes better also helps in non fair match-up with an alternate casting cost but still is in the 2 cmc counter slot that counterspell was in.

So any suggestions tips ect would be appreciated thanks.

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Originally Posted by Moose8583

Hey I am building a list and was trying to think outside of the box and get some new things in there also I am new to miracles so I need some constructive criticism on helping me build it here is my list right now

Artifact (4)
4xSensei's Divining Top

Enchantment (3)
3xCounterbalance

Instant (21)
4xBrainstorm
3xDaze
4xForce of Will
3xSpell Pierce
3xStifle
4xSwords to Plowshares

Planeswalker (3)
3xJace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorcery (7)
3xEntreat the Angels
4xTerminus

Land (22)
2xArid Mesa
4xFlooded Strand
3xIsland
1xKarakas
2xPlains
2xScalding Tarn
4xTundra
4xWasteland

I added waste and stifle to punish their mana; and with those and spell pierce I feel daze becomes better also helps in non fair match-up with an alternate casting cost but still is in the 2 cmc counter slot that counterspell was in.

So any suggestions tips ect would be appreciated thanks.

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suggestion: play a proven list. look at lists that are either doing well at scg or have been talked about by people of credibility in this thread.
definitely do not go building your own list when you're not familiar/experienced with miracles.
miracles is not trying to play the tempo game so cards like wasteland, daze and stifle have no place in this deck.

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Originally Posted by sauce

suggestion: play a proven list. look at lists that are either doing well at scg or have been talked about by people of credibility in this thread.
definitely do not go building your own list when you're not familiar/experienced with miracles.
miracles is not trying to play the tempo game so cards like wasteland, daze and stifle have no place in this deck.

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That makes since thanks.

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Originally Posted by sauce

suggestion: play a proven list. look at lists that are either doing well at scg or have been talked about by people of credibility in this thread.
definitely do not go building your own list when you're not familiar/experienced with miracles.
miracles is not trying to play the tempo game so cards like wasteland, daze and stifle have no place in this deck.

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Also I took out the 4 waste, 3 stifle, 3 daze for; 1 island, 1 plains, 2 counterspell, 4 ponder, 2 elspeth

seem good? because that makes it more of a stock list because and do you have any other advise?

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Originally Posted by Moose8583

Also I took out the 4 waste, 3 stifle, 3 daze for; 1 island, 1 plains, 2 counterspell, 4 ponder, 2 elspeth

seem good? because that makes it more of a stock list because and do you have any other advise?

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you don't need 4 ponders in this deck, max i would say is probably 1, even then it's not very good.
elspeth is okay if you expect a lot of mirrors or midrange.

check out my current list, this is punishing miracles (based heavily on kaosjr's list)
http://www.berzerk.org/legacy-uwr-pu...g-miracles.jpg

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Originally Posted by sauce

you don't need 4 ponders in this deck, max i would say is probably 1, even then it's not very good.
elspeth is okay if you expect a lot of mirrors or midrange.

check out my current list, this is punishing miracles (based heavily on kaosjr's list)
http://www.berzerk.org/legacy-uwr-pu...g-miracles.jpg

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Thanks very much for your help man.

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Originally Posted by sauce

you don't need 4 ponders in this deck, max i would say is probably 1, even then it's not very good.
elspeth is okay if you expect a lot of mirrors or midrange.

check out my current list, this is punishing miracles (based heavily on kaosjr's list)
http://www.berzerk.org/legacy-uwr-pu...g-miracles.jpg

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just curious why run punishing fire from a mana base stand point, the regular U/W miracles has a rock solid mana base and do the positives out weigh the negatives because I have a punishing Maverick list and I run 3 and 3 like you do but I have KotR to find groves but I have had hands with 2 p-fires and no way to cast them or have 3 groves opening hand and have to mulligan because I added the Punishing package

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Originally Posted by Moose8583

just curious why run punishing fire from a mana base stand point, the regular U/W miracles has a rock solid mana base and do the positives out weigh the negatives because I have a punishing Maverick list and I run 3 and 3 like you do but I have KotR to find groves but I have had hands with 2 p-fires and no way to cast them or have 3 groves opening hand and have to mulligan because I added the Punishing package

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mana base is indisputably worse with groves, but it's not a big issue w/ 4 brainstorms and 4 sensei's divining tops. often times p.fires/grove does not come into play at all.
for example, i played a 4 round legacy tournament yesterday and only had pfires/grove one game out of 4 matches. it's great when you draw it or when you set it up, but its not like you must have both.

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Originally Posted by sauce

mana base is indisputably worse with groves, but it's not a big issue w/ 4 brainstorms and 4 sensei's divining tops. often times p.fires/grove does not come into play at all.
for example, i played a 4 round legacy tournament yesterday and only had pfires/grove one game out of 4 matches. it's great when you draw it or when you set it up, but its not like you must have both.

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Are there match ups or times when machine gunning p-fire is just the greatest thing because it would take :r::r::r::2: to cast it twice and one need to be a grove which is pretty late and I feel like it would be best against some aggro variant but that would come late and a miracled terminus just seem better

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moose8583

Are there match ups or times when machine gunning p-fire is just the greatest thing because it would take :r::r::r::2: to cast it twice and one need to be a grove which is pretty late and I feel like it would be best against some aggro variant but that would come late and a miracled terminus just seem better

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in my experience that only happens very late game vs decks like maverick and/or bug if it ever happens.
grove really shines in the BUG matchups and to pressure annoying planeswalkers for this deck like liliana.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sauce

in my experience that only happens very late game vs decks like maverick and/or bug if it ever happens.
grove really shines in the BUG matchups and to pressure annoying planeswalkers for this deck like liliana.

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Ok that makes since.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sauce

Here is a video of me playing Punishing Miracles vs Junk Maverick. You can kind of see how wastelands work here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8zJj2NRQvg
Also, you can see how games go when you do not draw Terminus after going through about a 1/3rd of your deck :-)

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Interesting you used this video to show the deck.

All this video really showed was that Punishing fire did nothing and Jace wins games on an empty board.

You are right about 1 or 2 Wastelands not being a problem for the deck though I don't think that is a reason to run Punishing Fire and risk the mana base. Just because you COULD have cast Punishing Fire in these games does not mean it SHOULD be in the deck. Also this game does not show what happens when you have the punishing fire and you don't have the land for it or when those extra red sources stop you being able to cast other spells.