Elspeth seems best. Tokens that can beat up Lilly, flying Batterskulls, tokens to eat the edict effect, isn't a one-time effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
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Elspeth seems best. Tokens that can beat up Lilly, flying Batterskulls, tokens to eat the edict effect, isn't a one-time effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Elspeth has, without a doubt, the biggest board impact. However, she is a proactive 4 CMC permanent with a difficult mana cost. I believe that if you want to dedicate a slot to a 4 CMC permanent, Restoration has a metagame advantage over Venser for the reasons I listed in my previous post. However, let's not discount the other possibilities such as a 4th Snapcaster Mage, the inclusion of Grim Lavamancer, additional counterspells or removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
I am reluctant to try Lavamancer due to its inherent dissynergy with Snapcaster, on the other hand it's a must answer for BUG and you can deploy it on turn 1... I'm wondering if the Punishing Fires package would be a better fit in that case.
It does come up from time to time, but my experience had been that it usually isn't a problem. Between eating fetches and having your own stuff killed, I usually find that it's not that difficult to keep at least 1 StP or Lightning Bolt in the yard for you to Snapcaster back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgs
I haven't played in a while due to almost selling all my magic.
So fill me in guys, do you still see some esperblade decks around or has shardless BUG finally buried my favorite deck under the ground?
Esper Stoneblade doesn't see much play anymore. Most of those players moved onto the Deathblade deck (take Esper, add green for Deathrite Shaman).Quote:
Originally Posted by AEnesidem
Yeah, blade is far from dead. It's just a slightly different flavor than it used to be
Actually, I've been getting kind of irritated at Deathblade (4-color), and am looking to get back to my EsperBlade list. However, it seems as though no one is playing it. I can't find an updated list or any real discussion on it. This thread has gone UWr as far as I can see. Can someone help me see why? I play UWr Miracle, and imho would prefer that to the UWr (patriot)blade. Heck, I feel like I would rather play UWr Delver than this...
-ABC
Lightning Bolt is more consistent and cheaper than Abrupt Decay against creature decks, and SFM/Clique/flash creatures are better agaisnt control in turn. UW/r Stoneblade is just in a good spot right now for the metagame. All the graveyard hate is relying on DRS, which with 7 1cc removal makes sure there is no disruption to the graveyard for Snapcaster Mage to regain all its advantages. Deathblade relies too much on having DRS alive to fuel its powerful spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
I agree on all points, but other than "it's just in a good spot in the metagame", I haven't heard a reason for PatriotBlade to be played over Esperblade...I'm not arguing for DRS, I'm trying to find an Esper build, or a reason for the UWr build over it that doesn't lack substance.
-ABC
being in a good spot in the metagame is a good enough reason on itself. esperblade obviously isn't that well positioned right now because there are better goodstuff decks out there who outplay it on some levels .Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
the red splash offers better answers to DRS, planeswalkers etc... all of which are highly present in the metagame. i can see the logic behind it and i don't think that argument needs reinforcement. red is better suited for the conditions our metagame presents to us and black isn't.
now, the reason why i stick to esperblade is because i don't have volcanic islands (and find deathblade to be a horrible deck) and because some very strong players here still consistently perform well with the deck here.
Okay, I can settle for that. I still would like to play it again, as I think I'm a stronger player with it than with Deathblade, and while I do have access to red, I am very much a non-red player. I hate it. It's why tonight while I was getting a deck ready and thought I was putting together a Miracles list, I ended up with some bad esperblade build, said screw it, and threw it all back in the box. I like Esper, I've always enjoyed esper, and I guess I'm going to go back through this thread until I find a build I can start from and make my own with a few tweaks here and there.
-ABC
If the metagame presents a lot of decks that are aggro - play the red splash for more removal.
If the metagame presents a lot of decks that are combo - play the black splash for more disruption.
Red also gives you better ways to hate on other blue based decks, which Black lacks outside of spot discards. Even then, black discard can come up short against active Jace, SDT, or Brainstorms.
HAHA what more do you want? A deck is good in the meta is a deck that should be played.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
If you want an esperblade list worth playing, this is the list good players have had success with here in Belgium. I have had some success with this deck too:
3 underground sea
3 tundra
1 scrubland
1 karakas
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
2 marsh flats
2 island
1 swamp
1 plains
4 snapcaster mage
4 stoneforge mystic
2 vendilion clique
3 jace, the mind sculptor
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
3 force of will
3 spell pierce
3 lingering souls
4 swords to plowshares
3 thoughtseize
1 inquistition of kozilek
1 batterskull
1 umezawa’s jitte
2 nihil spellbomb
1 surgical extraction
1 sword of feast and famine
2 perish
1 darkblast
1 supreme verdict
1 path to exile
1 force of will
2 duress
2 flusterstorm
1 meddling mage
The guy who piloted this deck to success plays this deck almost exclusively and top 8's almost every event he goes to if i have to believe my friends. It's true that i've never been at an event where he wasn't at the top tables. The list is very streamlined and dropped all the one-of clunkyness. That also means that you have less room for error though as you don't have a big reset button in Supreme verdict or a catch-all in engineered explosives.
The only thing is, i don't really have shardless BUG decks at my local metagame and haven't been to bigger events lately (which are crowded with BUG) so i have no idea how it performs against BUG. I guess it performs ok and has a winning chance because there was quite some BUG present at the event he topped and he is still playing esperblade.
Win another local 14 person event with the list I posted last page.
3-1 Swiss (scooped to Miracles instead of forcing the draw)
Beat:
Round 1 GW Maverick (2-1)
Round 2 Esper Stone Blade (2-0)
Round 3 Tin Fins (:cool:) (2-0)
Round 4 Miracles (1-1) scooped to Top 4
Top 4 Esper Stone Blade (same as round 2) (2-0)
Finals Miracles (2-0) same as Round 4
REB and Bolt are really good against fair strategies. /obv
same here actually. I tried both when I was playing this deck a lot, and venser has always been better then restoration angel, that my testgroup ultimately qualified as a cute card. In the worst case scenario, you can pitch venser to FoW if you have him early, when resto is just awkward until you can brainstorm it away or until can can actually play it. Also, I like the show and tell hate he provides against some variants. For the angel, I only ever used her as a 3/4 beater, flashed in eot to kill random plainswalkers. Sometimes you get to rebuy a clique or a stoneforge effect, and sometimes you block a flipped delver with it (not that it's good in that matchup, but it happened). So in the end, Venser was just more useful overall, more versatile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
What more do you want?Quote:
Originally Posted by ThediscoPower
well when you run red with bolts and grims, you don't really need to attack random planeswalkers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
Sorry to call you out on this, but Venser is much more "awkward" than Restoration Angel. He really only shines against SnT. 4 CMC is unrealistic vs. most non-SnT combos as a line of disruption. As for all the other fair matchups, he is either a very conditional "catch-all" or an over-costed body with a turn 4 tempo effect, which is lousy to say the least. You get to do silly things with him once you manage to pair him up with a Karakas, but that's all very late, narrow, and intensive. Clique is a real threat and has a relevant ability in every matchup, the fact that it couples with Karakas is a bonus and clearly not why we play the card. Take away Clique's ability and legendary status and she is still great in this deck. Flash, Flying, and 3 power for the cost of 3 is key here. Looking back at how you described Restoration Angel, I fail to see how your test group came to its conclusions because it obviously has value in this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThediscoPower
Concerning the RUG matchup, she doesn't only deal with a Delver, but a fully able Mongoose profitably. At 4 CMC she will take away the pressure from 8/12 of their threats which is more than reasonable for its cost. Resto Angel hits a blind spot vs. RUG that they have to FoW/Daze because otherwise, they cannot deal with her 1 for 1 outside of outsizing her with a Goyf or a scarce Dismember. I think she is very relevant to this matchup, or at least, more so than Venser by any means.
@KobeBryan,
You can't exactly take down a Lily or a Jace by digging out a Grim Lavamancer, it is too late at that point. Besides, it's not like Grim Lavamancer, once active, prevented PW's from being fruitful. If your argument here is that Lightning Blade decks packing Grim Lavamancer are already equiped to deal with Planeswalkers consistently, I urge you to reconsider.
I don't feel like the pros of Grim make up for his cons. "Beating Deathrite Shamans" isn't all that relevant for a deck packing 7-8 1CMC removal spells and 3-4 Snapcasters. DRS is a non-issue for this deck, and that is in part why it is so successful.
Keep in mind that you are also running 4 bolts with 4 snaps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
That was implied when I specified a Lightning Blade deck packing Grim Lavamancer.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
To reiterate what I was trying to get across: No, 4 Snaps and 4 Bolts aren't enough to consistently handle Planeswalkers. And I don't believe Grim Lavamancer relieves us of that concern while Restoration Angel potentially does.
Obviously I'm on the Grim Lavamancer side here, so here are some arguments for it.
- Killing Deathrite Shamans is very relevant, especially for a deck that's heavily based upon Snapcaster Mage. Sure LightningBlade decks pack 7+ removal spells, but having to use one on DRS means one less to hit their next threat.
- With the rise of th Grixis Pyromancer and Elves decks becoming more prevalent, a recurring way to deal with X/2's becomes even more important.
- While Planeswalkers still get to get to get a use, against an active Lavamancer, most aren't going to stick around long either.
- In this deck, there aren't really that many spells we actually want to cast on T1 (unlike Esper with it's hand disruption). Sure, you have removal spells you -could- cast, but most of the time you have a turn or two to cast them anyways, especially if you're wanting to play around Daze. Lavamancer fills that role of giving us a proactive T1 play.
-From my experience, I haven't had any shortage of removal against decks with DRS while playing only 3 Bolts and 4 StP. I originally played 4 Bolts and 2 Grims but I found that I had too much removal, therefore too many situational cards against specific matchups that I already deem favorable. Converting extra removal into direct damage is a very poor use of my cards when my goal is to take control of the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
-I agree with you that Lavamancer would shine against Pyromancer decks. However, I am not convinced that he is needed as an integral component of our deck, not even against Pyromancer decks.
-It is true that Grim Lavamancer helps against PWs in general and is more effective than a lot of creatures against PWs once active also. For that particular purpose, though, I don't think Lavamancer is good enough compared to any flash creature. If it is true that this deck has enough removal to consistently deal with aggro strategies without Grim, then his slot has to be compared with other cards that accomplish a similar purpose. For example, Restoration Angel has similar abilities against aggro decks, better proactive qualities, and answer's PWs better as well.
Let's not discount the fact that alongside Bolts and StP, Grim Lavamancer adds to the amount of dead cards we play against non-creature decks. Averaging 11 removal spells is extreme when you could mitigate your losses with cards like Izzet Charm that have a relevant dual purpose compared to cards like Grim and Bolt where dealing direct damage is mostly irrelevant for our general strategy.
-I don't think it is necessary for this deck to have proactive T1 plays because it is essentially a reactive control deck. Casting Grim on T1 is a luxury I can rarely afford if I want to steadily cast a T4 Jace. Leaving mana open for any piece of removal, a counterspell, or simply using a Ponder during my first turn is usually a better play against half the decks in the format. Activating a Grim Lavamancer on T2 can be difficult, simply wrong, or flat out impossible. Attacking with Grim is also grossly underwhelming.
:cool:
Some good observations from both sides, but this argument doesn't make sense to me. Grim Lavamancer and Restoration Angel do not compete for slots. Truth be told, I love Grim and I think he's one of the most powerful creatures in the format. That said, I'd argue that the reason Restoration Angel is good is because it does not compete for slots with anything.
I like the idea of playing 2 Grim Lavamancer, 2 Vendilion Clique, and 3 Snapcaster Mage with Riptide Laboratory. Riptide Lab protects Grim from removal, and lets you fog a tarmogoyf for multiple turns while looking for an answer. Also, Grim is a lightning rod for removal against many decks, which means they will have less removal for your Stoneforge Mystic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
But I also like the idea of playing Lightning Bolt instead of Grim. I hate it when my Grim Lavamancer dies while summoning sick, unable to handle an important threat (Stoneforge, Confidant, Delver...). In such a case, Lightning Bolt is just better.
Here is the list I'm currently testing on Cockatrice, and assembling IRL:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Restoration Angel
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Ponder
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Redirect
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Wear // Tear
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Blood Moon
On another note, I wonder if UWr Stoneblade could incorporate 2-3 Stifle + 3-4 Wasteland, like Next Level Threshold used to do. Here is an example NLT decklist: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...1&iddeck=68590
The idea is that Stifle lets you slow down your opponent while you ramp up to big threats. It's awesome when you have a Batterskull or Jace in play against an opponent still on 2 lands... You also gets free wins against opponents keeping hands with little hands.
Instead of bolting / piercing their turn 1 play, you can simply Stifle their first land. Instead of snaring their T2 play, you can Stifle their second land. Stifle is another one-drop you can use to control the early game, and survive until the mid-late game... I also like how flexible this kind of strategy can be: one game, you play like a control deck, and the next, you Stifle/Waste and play a fast threat while they stumble on mana.
Of course, stifling our opponent's mana is usually not the best idea in a control deck, where you want a long game. It's usually reserved to tempo decks... But I still wonder how a "Next Level Stoneblade" would far :) It would be kind of a mix between Patriot Delver and classical Blade Control.
Yeah, but once we go down the stifle/waste road, we then have to ask "well, why not play daze? Or delver? Or green for tarmogoyf to end the game quicker?"
I'm sure there are dozens of posts that argue this point better, but I just wanted to chime in. (Aside: I love stifle... just in my Thresh deck, though)
I know, it was my reaction too when I first read about NLT. I was wondering why I should play that instead of RUG Delver, since it seemed weird to play Stifle/Waste with no Delver, no Mongoose, no Daze...Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
But NLT is actually pretty cool. I finished 5th out of around 25 people last weekend with a NLT list very similar to the one I linked in my previous post (I think I went -1 Ooze -1 Lavamancer + 1 goyf +1 Snapcaster), ending up 4-1 after losing to a friend playing Miracles. I finished 3rd out of 45 people 2 months ago with a NLT list I brewed 2 hours before the tournament (including 1 Intuition, 2 Young Pyromancer, and a small Punishing Grove package...), losing in the last round to EsperBlade after making tons of mistake (like forgetting my Ancient Grudge in the GY to answer his Batterskull).
I don't know if it's due to the surprise factor or if I was just lucky... But I think there is something there. People just don't expect the land-destruction package from Stoneblade. We might not need 4 Waste and 4 Stifle, but 3 Waste 2 Stifle might be enough to add that little "gotcha" factor. Note that can even flash Stifle back with Snapcaster Mage, if your mana denial plan is working. You could also get them with Stifle G1, and have them play around it G2 while you play like a standard blade list, slowing them down.
The reason I wanted to talk about porting NLT to an UWr Blade List, is that NLT depends too much on the GY IMO: Snapcaster Mage, Grim Lavamancer, Tarmogoyf, Scavenging Ooze, Life From The Loam in some builds, Punishing Fire in some other builds... Going for UWr Blade would be less GY-dependant. Another problem of the deck, is that it's hard to handle big creatures, like Knight of the Reliquary or Tombstalker. Your only answers to Knight G1 is to race them or kill it with E.E. on 3. Post-side, you have Submerge, but it's still hard to deal with. If we play Next Level Blade, we could answer big creatures with Swords to Plowshares instead.
But blade creatures are slower (SFM, Clique, Venser, Resto) and aren't meant for beat down purposes like NLT. That's the main problem: stifle/tempo is only potent with a clock. Thresh thrives on cheap, powerful threats that kill in the early game if left unblocked and are unblocked because early development is being hindered by the rest of the deck. It's a wonderful synergy.
If you try to shoehorn in different cards from different decks you get train wrecks like Grixis or UWR Delver
This version caught my eye:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...4&iddeck=85616
It's eschewing maindeck FoWs for the Punishing Fires package. It also has 2 Vensers. I think with early counters like Pierce and CS as well as Vensers+Cliques it can be decent against S&T even without FoWs. Against other grindy control/midrange decks exclusion of FoW doesn't really hurt you (less card disadvantage) and the maindeck seems weak against probably only Storm without FoWs.
Edit: Apparently Caleb wrote about this deck in his last article..
No FoWs anywhere in the 75? No thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgs
I think p fire is unnecessary. We have white, so why not play a board wipe instead?
To pressure planeswalkers constantly, beat players who don't over extend to the board, have pseudo card advantage, have reach when switched to aggro mode?
Although I agree that not having FoW in the whole 75 looks shaky.
Perhaps my meta is very different from everyone else's but the amount of Walker's I have seen since DRS has contiously dropped off to the point where I genuinely don't remember the last time I saw one played against me.
Touching on another topic, if combo as a whole as at a low in your meta dropping force from your 75 isn't honestly that terrible. FoW is only valuable to save you until you stabalize. BUG is a perfect example of a deck that has acknowledged what I said at least in part and has consistenly ran a low FoW count and clearly done well for it.
As for the Stifle/Waste argument... I could see Stifle still being utilized because it hits a number of valuable targets accross the format. SnT targets are near limitless. Storm has the obvious and also its fetches (which can really suck for the storm player). SFM mirrors get alot easier when there SFM's are basically squires or they can't bounce the Batterskull. Honestly, I think the only decks where packing stifle would be bad is in a true tempo matchup.
Lastly, on the topic of Mancer, while he is good, unless you face a format chock full of Mongeese and Goyf, there is probably better options. It is super hard to keep him powered up.
Meddling mage is so hard to name against a combo deck.
What do you guys normally go for against (game 2). on turn 2 when you see nothing yet from them.
1. reanimator - i've been naming entomb
2. omni tell - show and tell
3. sneak show - show and tell (though i'm starting to believe sneak attack is the better choice since we can't deal with a sneak attack on the board with this deck, but we have ways to still answer show and tell
4. belcher - i usually name Empty the warrens
5. tes - ad nauseum
6. ant - ad nauseum
1. If they have no plays seems fine. If they binned a fatty already, name whichever reanimte spell you cant deal with.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
2. Im not sure if this is right. I think Enter the Infinite might be better. They don't need Show and tell to win (Dream halls), but they do need Enter the infinite to win unless they use their 1 of emmy.
3. Yup. Depends what other hate you have though. I think Sneak is actually better most of the time though. Flusterstorm, REB, Dsphere, venser, supreme verdict, etc all can answer a show while not much stops sneak.
4. Depends on your other hate again. Desphere, ee, etc could stop empty.
5. Bad idea. TES only has 1 AdN and probably only casts it, at the most, in 20% of the games they win. Name Burning wish or Infernal Tutor. Usually name wish unless your in topdeck mode for some reason since usually with the tutor they have to go all in and your countermagic can do more. Wish gets PiF, and things that kill/bounce your mage as well as wincons.
6. Again, that wont work well. Name infernal tutor. Like TES they only have 1 AdN, name the thing that finds AdN OR PiF OR Tendrils OR ways to kill MM.
It's true though, MM is hard. Against U based combo I have found players almost always do whatever countermagic they can to stop MM from resolving because it is a terrifying card from their perspective. They are not 100% sure what your going to name and they don't want it to be a card they have/need. Also against U based decks, if you have a lot of permission, naming FoW so they cant protect their combo without using cards you can play around is also not a bad idea.
Wait, what? He's terrible against Mongoose and Goyf. In a deck that's chock full of spells, small creatures, and fetch lands, I haven't had much of a problem keeping him active. Really, if you can get 2-3 activations out of him (assuming you're killing creatures with him) before he dies, that's more than enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by nodahero
Against storm combo it all depends on what they have and what you have. Your go-to should be naming either Burning Wish or Infernal Tutor (not everyone plays Wish). However, when I have a hand of taxing counters I'll occasionally name Dark Ritual. It's also occsionally correct to name Thoughtseize/Therapy/Silence, but these cases are few and far between.
From the Storm side of things, if you name Ad Nauseam or Tendrils, it's about as hard to beat as a Daze.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
Don't forget to name their Black Lotus!
Greetings
I actually don't think enter the infinite will work that well. They can easily cunning wish for Call and then go off with emrukhal.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect