why Powder Keg main? its too slow to be an all-purpose wrath effect... and only 16 land is crazy!! any reason why you dropped the count so low?
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why Powder Keg main? its too slow to be an all-purpose wrath effect... and only 16 land is crazy!! any reason why you dropped the count so low?
Powder Keg is a solution against Zoo, and Goyfs =P
...landcount is lower, because there is no need to reach 3RR for something like Slogger, but I feel that it's too low, and I know it's somewhat crazy... ...like I said, it's still a test
YawG
If you want a better agro matchup than don't cut slogger... the thing rocks the agro matchup
Also, no wonder you find the deck is slow... you play less land AND miss out on seething song, and simian spirit guide, well there goes your explosive opening...
I play 4 SSG... I never said, that this deck is slow... I just try to make it more constant without losing against Aggro...
...and Seething Song (which can be a deaddraw in the lategame) and Slogger (which randomly fucks up wit Hellbent) are the cards, what makes this deck inconstant imo
YawG
Hail Sourcers! At last I'm done with the friggin military service:D ..Back for some stomping.
Yawg have you tried that list of yours? Is it working?
Lodestone Golem seems awful to me guys..I totally agree with overseer's points. Plus that 0-2cc spells will cost 3cc nevertheless with Trinisphere and Lodestone down I think. Trinisphere is more than enough and Lodestone could even do more harm to DS than to the opponent's deck. It's also boltable and disenchant-able, I'd rather play Covetous Dragon than this.
Kazuul is interesting, and he is even better mid-lategame, blocking quite effectively a non-flying horde. Even if DS's philosophy is to be THE aggro deck (it's really aggro-control imho)..hell lets admit that we need blocking capacity too. Kaz also deals well with Goyfs, isn't that important? He doesn't let the opponent outnumber our creatures, and our explosive creatures can gain the advantage after that again, turning the tide in our favor once more if things are bad. Kazuul could steal a certain victory for the opponent, who practically won't be able to attack in many cases. Kazuul can't be bolted or firespouted and he hits for 5. I think he deserves at least one sideboard slot for playtesting. Slogger's excellent but 4 shots aren't always enough. To start with, I'll test 3 Sloggers and 1 Kazuul main and let you know.
It's working, but it works better when you play -1 Powder Keg, +1 Mountain...
but I'm still testing...
I feel that Powder Keg is the weakest card in the deck, but I don't know if 4 FTK and 3 Jitte is enough to fight against Aggro/Zoo...
...maybe I kick all 3 Powder Kegs for 2 Mountains and 1 SoLaS... I'll see
YawG
I like Powder Keg..in the sideboard! As a matter of fact I prefer using 2 Powder Kegs a lot more than using 2 Pyroclasms sb. They are slower but more purposeful. Add 3 Pyrokinesis there and you get the job done.
Any thoughts on Rolling Earthquake in the board? Just curious to hear what the verdict may be. It hits flyers AND non-flyers, gets around chalice, (assuming you pay at least 1 for X, obviously) and provides a means for killing things that are out of pyrokinesis/firespout range. (i.e. Tombstalkers and other 5/5 flyers, big fatty goyfs, etc...) I'd be interested to hear the pros and cons, as others may see them. I'm currently testing 3 pyrokinesis, 2 'quakes. I could even cut a few other slots in the board, to add in a couple of firespouts, if need be. Here's my current board:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Rolling Earthquake
3 Boil
3 Anarchy
I'd cut a crypt and an Anarchy for 2 Firespouts, if I was determined to run this deck vs. lots of aggro.
seething song can always pump RPD for 5 in the late game, I never hate drawing it
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chubu!
In the 2008 championships T8, the DS player did use 2 rolling earthquakes, so it has a history of being a legit SB card. In fearies mu, i've found volcanic fallout to be better though.
Hey guys, Dream Halls is gaining a lot of steam. how do you guys feel about our mu. I know I posted that I beat them in my tournie report, but I actually feel it's a bad mu for us. that's one more to go along with gobs, enchantress, some survival, sui black, can thresh, eva green, MUC, and eskimo (am i missing any?) . :P
I'm thinking bout putting some REB in my side for show and tell. what are you guys doing?
anyone heard of Spitebellows?
I stumbled upon it when reading the old threads on Wotc page.
Seems like a decent way of dealing with Goyf and Stalker - some kind of red Shriekmaw to take place of Flametongue
yeah, but it cost's 1RR to evoke instead of 2R, that make's it bad...
I'd rather play FTK... It can't kill Goyfs (most of the time) and Stalkers, but it can swing for 4. (thats more important than dealing 6 dmg at sorceryspeed imo because we are the aggrodeck)
btw I decided to kick the Kegs out of my main, because they are too slow =P
YawG
what did you put instead?
I wonder why in some builds we see Deus of Calamity:rolleyes:. Yes he is huge, and played from Seething Song he is devastating but his cost (without SS) is rather unpleasant. Nevertheless I've seen him in at least few decks along with Sloggers or Akromas.
Mountains instead of Kegs >.>, and a random RAkroma, because I don't know what to put there (maybe 3rd Moon)...
I don't like Deus or Demigod in this deck... They are only good with Seething Song, and Song is not needed without Slogger imo.
I like my Slogger/Songless Build atm... I can play 4 off of Trini and Mauler along with 3 Jittes in the main, because I have the space =P
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury
4 Flametongue Kavu
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Taurean Mauler
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Blood Moon
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Snow-Covered Mountain
////
4 Pithing Needle
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Boil
2 Anarchy
2 Tormod's Crypt
YawG
song is still awesome without slogger, acceleration is acceleration period, and songs purpose was never solely to get slogger into play, it was to play any threat a turn or two faster...
...and it sucks as a topdeck, if you don't have an RPD and need Hellbent for your Raiders
...you rather want to draw an critter instead of Song
...it's not as bad as before, because of the elimination of manaburn... but a topdecked critter is always better (with the exception of an resolved RPD)
YawG
YawG I like your build; I never liked Slogger and the deck is pretty light on creatures considering the 3 Jittes. Ditching song allows you to add more threats.
Shame there aren't a *great* deal of options for this deck though. How has FKZ been for you? I would be tempted to add +1 Moon, -1 FKZ. FKZ has a number of issues, not sure if they have been discussed in this thread already. Main ones being:
-If they don't run creatures you can hit, its a dead draw (Mongoose, Lands, Combo); unless you can afford to spit at your own guy
-Doesn't kill Goyf most of the time
-Sits in your hand if there are no creatures on the board
-In these scenarios it can screw up your Hellbent (unless you have Gathan to pitch it to)
What else is there though? Could Avalanche Riders get there? At least you should always be able to cast it. Potentially adding to an opponents mana screw / taking out a Glacial Chasm / man-land / Coliseum.
Edit: I know the 7 moon effects probably deal with these anyways, just brainstorming though. You can take out their on-colour Basics, as a number of decks run only run singletons.
I like my list too, because I can play 4 Trini, 4 COTV, 6 Moons & 3 Jitte and I don't ruin the Aggro plan, because I can still play 25 creatures
I like 3 Jittes, and I like 4 FTKs... Yes, 3 Jittes screws Hellbent sometimes... 4 FTK does it nearly never...
...in the worst case FTK is like a topdecked Song ...you just need to play it because of Hellbent
FTK kills every relevant creature except the late game Goyf and Tombstalker (and the 4 big ones Progenitus, Dreadnought, Marit Lage, Iona)
I think with the loss of Slogger we need to play 3 Jitte, and 4 FTKs because aggro is somewhat relevant...
...I would like to play more or better creatures... the problem is they don't exist (try Sulfur Elemental or Mountain Yeti if you want more/other creatures)
[you could even cut 1 Jitte, 1 FTK, 1 RAkroma, 1 Mountain for another 4-off cc3 Creature]
I am also thinking of playing the 3rd Moon, but I would kick RAkroma, because it isn't that much affordable without Songs, but somehow I still like her as a 1 off...
I'm also on and off with kicking 1 Jitte for SoLaS, because of the legendary status...
Mongeese, Vials, Zoo can all be hit with Powder Keg, but if you're on the play COTV1 will do the job, and Keg is a bit too slow, so I decided to kick it.
I have tested very much shit, the last 2 months... (Powder Keg main, Grafted Wargear, Goblin Assault, Sulfur Ellemental, Mountain Yeti, Greater Gargadon, Aura Barbs in the side, etc.etc. >.>) ...but I'm very happy with my list right now, except the 3rd Jitte thing. :rolleyes:
YawG
"Yes, 3 Jittes screws Hellbent sometimes... 4 FTK does it nearly never.."
how so? if you play against creatureless decks you get rid of them by killing them? I dont understand.
look at the deckcheck.net :] dragon is taking over - and everywhere at least two sloggers
Against what do you side the needles in for? And does this mean you (always) exchange them for chalices?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill
...yes, I just play it and let it kill itself in the situations where I need Hellbent (or kill the weakest creature, SSG for example)
I have tested this deck with less than 4 RPDs and it feels so wrong.,.. RPD IS the best finisher in this deck, and I never want to go below 4...
...most decks in the last time on deckcheck played no Sloggers afaik... but I know that they were a few builds with 2 Sloggers and crap like Deus of Calamity
Needle is against everything...
NEVER PLAY LESS THAN 4 PITHING NEEDLE !!!!
It's mentioned thousand times in this thread, and it's right...
Needle is against everything that can wreck us like hell (CoP:R, Deed, EE3) and its much useful against other cards (Survival, Equipment, Vial etc.)
It's a very versatile card, and you will learn to like it, if you play them =)
YawG
"most decks in the last time on deckcheck played no Sloggers afaik... but I know that they were a few builds with 2 Sloggers and crap like Deus of Calamity"
I like kinda like deus as a creature but against control decks I'd rather play Maulers with their cost much easier to swallow
hmm I keep checking Dragon decks every week and there's always 1-3 sloggers so it had to be a long time ago since you checked it.
Dont get me wrong - I dont like Sloggers as well (once you get it on board its fine but theres nothing more frustrating than to not being able to play it or two from your hand :D) but killing your own threats mmmm :eek: Anyway need to test your build with FTK if not successful with Avalanche Riders in that place (there's always a land to destroy).
Are three Jittes not too many?
Are two Moons not to little?
what do you need Boil for? Will it stop Merfolks with vial on board?
the problem with Deus & Demigod is, that you can ONLY play than with Song... they're much more reliable on Song then Slogger is...
FTK can kill itself, if needed but I like to have 4, because I want them against Zoo and the like... ...and like I said before: without Slogger, we need an other anti Aggro creature IMO
(it's somewhat personal style... but it is/was my favorite red creature... but than Goyf was printed, and destroyed his value of killing any cheap creature :cry:)
3 Jittes are sometimes too many... ...like I said, I'm thinking to exchange 1 Jitte with SoLaS
I never had a problem with 6 Moon effects, because they're somewhat dead in the 2nd game if my opponent starts and begins to fetch basics... ...they got a bit weaker since MtG got all 10 Fetchies... but if you want to play the 3rd moon, I would kick RAkroma i think...
Boil can be funny, because they don't always have Vial... but it's not only against Merfolk... Most U/X/X decks, play only the U Duals, so it hits them, too-other than that, it's good against stuff like Landstill and MUC
...and there is something in me, that says I need to play at least 3 Boil ...It's more like my Paranoia against blue :tongue:
btw.... Sulfur > Avalanche Riders IMO
YawG
Just a few questions..
Why (potentially) SoL&S over SoF&I? The two most common tribes in the format are Goblins and Merfolk. In addition you get protection against bounce spells, Dragon Stompy mirrors, D. Dreams & Seismic Assault. L&S protects you from Path/Swords, but you already have Chalice for those, and Tombstalker.
When is Sulfurs white-shrinking ability relevant? Or is it just a 3 power flash for 3 that you like? Just wanted some quantification re: Surfur > Riders. Zoo, Bant Survival & Aggro Loam all run 1 basic forest. I would have thought being able to take it out would make your Moons more relevant.
SoLaS over SoFai because you don't want to draw cards with SoFaI and that screws your Hellbent plan a bit more (the creature retake effect is a may effect, so you can use it only when you want) SoLaS also protects you from bolts, because of the +2/+2
3 lifegain is better than 2 damage in this deck, because of your Tombs, imo
Sulfur Elemental
- acts as pseudo removal due to flash / combattricks
- is uncounterable :cool:
- kills Mother of Runes, White Weenie, Jötun Grunt =P
- is good in response to a Standstill :cool:
YawG
Don't forget that it also kills elspeth tokens which is HUGEQuote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill
Huge if you play against them yes, but Landstill is no longer a deck to beat nor is it played much anymore. Can't Pithing Needle shut down Elspeth (amongst other things) also?
I get the point tho. If anything I'm starting to like Sulfur over FTK, since they both have decent abilities but Sulfur has a nicer cost :p
The 3 life would be v handy, but I'd rather have protection from a larger % of the field, plus doing 2 damage anywhere, plus drawing a card. Its hard to say if it would screw your hellbent more often than it helped you; every situation where you can draw the extra card and cast it, its a big advantage to you. In which scenarios are those?
Assuming Hellbent, Creature + Fire & Ice:
Draw for the turn: Non-land
Draw with SoFaI: Land
Outcome: Hellbent
And vice versa.
Draw for the turn: Garthan Riders
Draw with SoFaI: Anything
Outcome: Hellbent
And vice versa.
Draw for the turn: '3+' card (~26)
Draw with SoFaI: '0 CC' card (12)
Outcome: Hellbent
And vice versa.
Draw for the turn: '0 CC' card
Draw with SoFaI: '0 CC' card
Outcome: Hellbent
And vice versa.
Draw for the turn: 'Non-Garthan 3+ CC' card (~22)
Draw with SoFaI: 'Non-Garthan 3+ CC' card (~22)
Outcome: No Hellbent (unless you have >=6 mana in play, which case Hellbent)
And vice versa.
Draw for the turn: Land
Draw with SoFaI: Land
Outcome: No Hellbent
I don't know the odds of those, obviously double big-guy and double-land would come up. But as you can see there are a number of other viable ones. I didn't include Jitte in these situations.
There are other considerations. One being when you don't have Hellbent, and are trying to get it. Would SoFaI either be a dead card or make it harder? Quite possibly. Still, versus Merfolk/Goblins/Dragon Stompy would you rather a 7/7 L&S Rider (with Hellbent), or a 5/5 Pro Blue Draw a Card, Deal 2 Damage Rider (No Hellbent)? They can chump block your 7/7 all day, from which you will get no benefits, meanwhile your 5/5 can block all day if required OR attack straight through them. Yes I understand an equipped Flyer will get through regardless, however you only run 4 evasion creatures, with 12-16 others.
Anyways food for thought. I love the deck regardless :)
@overseer1234: ... I KNEW that there was something that I have forgotten, thx for reminding...
@AcidFiend: WOW, just wow...
Draw for the turn: Garthan Riders
Draw with SoFaI: Anything
Outcome: Hellbent
And vice versa.
...vice versa is not true because you play "anything" before you attack for Hellbent and then you aren't guranteed to play the Gathans to keep Hellbent
...regardless of that ...because of you, I just want to test an 2/1/1 Split of Jitte/SoLaS/SoFaI
anyways... I love that deck, too I can't get away from this deck, because it's so awesome IMO
I started in Legacy with Goblin (FCG from Vintage tuned to Legacy)... and wanted to build me an other Legacy deck, so I sold my Goblins... TES, Dredge or DS was the way to go... I decided to build DS... then I sold it a year after it, and played only casual legacy for half a year... built it up again... traded it against Dredge... bought my DS back... sold it after 2 month, played Dredge for the whole next year... ...and have rebuilt it right now... ...you see, I can't get away from it =)
YawG
yea, and don't forget the antisynergy w/rakdos! once u hit someone with firststrike damage, gathan shrinks and ur dragon is back to regular regardless of drawing a land, although an ssg is cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill
I think that given this decks recent performance on Deckcheck.net it is going to become a DTB or DTW
5 Top 4's in the last 2 months seems pretty good.
All five decks featured Seething Song, the lowest ran just two copies. Arc-Slogger was also featured in all the decks, however the majority ran fewer than 3 copies.
FTK hasn't found a foothold yet in these recent lists.
Sideboard "Trap" cards with an :0: alternate cost seem to be worth looking at.
Mindbreak Trap
Ravenous Trap
Summoning Trap
I haven't tested any myself. How do you guys think they compare to traditional answers?
Ravenous Trap's a bad idea because you run Trinisphere. Crypt is better here. Never mind that I just got through arguing Crypt over Trap on a different thread. You're strong against Ichorid anyway, but decks like Reanimator and some red Loam variants can be trouble.
Mindbreak Trap's decent, but do you really need to improve your Storm match beyond 4 Chalice and 4 Trinispheres main?
And Summoning Trap is terrible. End story.
So I was looking again yesterday at 3cc replacements for some of our "compromise" creatures like Sulfur Elemental. I don't think it will be good, but I realized that Crusher Zendikon from the new set can be used on City of Traitors to save it and thought that was kinda cute. It has trample to boot.
yeah, just a rule question, that come over my by testing...
...when I have an RPD in play equipped with an SoFaI and Hellbent...
when RPD attacks,it does his first strike damage, I get to draw a card... ...does he still deal damage in the normal combat damage step, because Hellbent is no longer exists at that time?
YawG
When you draw the card from the F. strike damage your dragon will lose it's second damage step. The second damage step is for creatures who either have D strike or have not attempted to deal combat damage yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill
Side note: You can discard the card to un-morph a Raider and your dragon will then hit again since he has D strike again.
Testing that:
4 Flametongue Kavu
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Avalanche Riders
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Blood Moon
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
11 Mountain
SB:
4 Pithing Needle
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Shattering Spree
2 Anarchy
Riders are working surprisingly well often taking the only basic that opponent have also working as an attacker (haste) or blocker. Anyway I will test Maulers in that place to compare.
Rakdos Dragons are tremendous even without Seething Songs, three Jittes are too many (imho) two Moons (too little).
I used to play with 10 mountains and 4 moons but mws shuffling code keeps annoying me with mana screws. I guess in real 10 mountains will be enough
When I saw the list with summoning pact, i realized that it's kinda crazy! I don't use it myself, but i thought of how well it exploded on counter. on bant, a first turn force on bloodmoon could be responded with topping off magus or akroma. I tried it out, and you usually get at least one good thing every seven cards. As with others tho, it sux late game, and u can beat BANT w/o it technically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Please note that extensive testing by the experts of the deck (not me) have concluded that this is not really an issue, since if you have a RPD attacking with a SOFI, you are probably in a good position anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by damionblackgear
So don't let this factor into your decision in running SOFI or not.
WOOT
...there is a huge difference between SoLas and SoFaI in such a Situation...
...if unblocked RPD (no pump) with Sword equipped:
SoFaI = 5 damage + 2 extra damage + draw a card
SoLas = 10 damage + 6 life + being able to return a creatue to your hand (after 2nd strike)
...whats better, huh?
why not make a good situation even better??? SoLaS is clearly the winner here...
...don't forget that on a flying RPD, SoLaS owns the two only relevant flying creatures (Stalker & Baneslayer) [and protects from removal and Bolts] ...you even can race Iona with SoLaS on RPD, lol =P
@AmokPL: in reallife (not MWS) I would play -1 Mountain, +1 SoLaS instead of the 4th Moon.
YawG
I have a question, I am thinking about running either this or Goblins in GP Madrid; what are this decks matchups? I think Goblins is slightly favored, combo is favored, 43 lands obviously is, Merfolk looks quite hard?, but Im unsure about Tempo Thresh, Zoo, CB/Top and Bant Survival. Could anyone give me pointers?