Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Crimhead
I never paid much attention to extended, but the Modern ban list philosophy seems like it's based on marketing moreso than the Legacy ban list philosophy.
Sensei's Divining Top got banned because it (1) was absolutely everywhere, and (2) it made everything take a long time. #2 probably wouldn't have mattered if not for #1.
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Why is there a turn four rule in Modern (but not Legacy)?
Because in Legacy it's a turn three rule instead. Or so they claimed, anyway:
"First, we have a rule of thumb about Legacy that we don't like consistent turn-two combination decks, but that turn-three combination decks are okay. We modified that rule for Modern by adding a turn to each side: we are going to allow turn-four combination decks, but not decks that consistently win the game on turn three."
Before anyone claims blah blah Spanish Inqusition, blah blah Goblin Charbelcher, it's worth remembering that those decks aren't particularly good. The only particularly competitive deck I can think of that can challenge that by wining before turn 3 is Storm, though I'm not sure its actual percentages of kills on turns 1 or 2.
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If a combo deck is dominant and oppressive, they don't need an extra rule to justify the ban! The purpose of the T4 rule is to facilitates bans to kill decks which are not OP. Why would WotC want to kill (or curb) a deck which is not OP? Because that deck is not "fun".
While I don't like the turn 4 rule myself and think decks should be banned on actual dominance rather than merely being good and ticking off an arbitrary criteria, I believe the idea is that even if such decks aren't "dominant," those decks being good (decks don't get banned simply for winning consistently before turn 4, but for being doing so and being "top tier") warps the metagame by forcing out anything that has difficulty interacting.
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And that's all there is to it. In Modern, WotC will not allow anything that will turn off the player base. This includes fast combo, but also slow, grindy, control. Legacy has always allowed for every slow and very fast decks. It's well known that some players don't like those decks, but I think the target audience for eternal has always been people who enjoy less conventional strategies and/or who have a thicker skin.
Sensei's Divining Top gets a pass in Legacy largely because it doesn't see as much play as it did in Extended or would in Modern. Think about what you get for casting and activating Top: For two mana, you get to look at the top three cards of your library and reorder them. You can then draw a card if you're willing to effectively skip your next draw step. Meanwhile, Ponder for one mana will let you look at the top three cards, reorder them, shuffle them all away if you want, then draw a card without skipping your next draw. While you can shuffle them with Top if you have a fetchland, Ponder will shuffle it by itself.
Basically, why play Top when Ponder gives you a more powerful effect for less mana? In the long run Sensei's Divining Top manages to be more powerful with its continual card selection, but it takes a while for that to take effect, whereas Ponder pays off instantly. So you normally only are playing Top if you either can't play Brainstorm/Ponder or if you get some kind of special usage out of it like Miracles. If you didn't have cantrips as powerful as Brainstorm and Ponder, then Top would see a ton more play and would likely get a ban in Legacy.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
I continue my complaining. Show and tell has the same power level like Oath of druids. Survival is much less broken than those two. Come on wizards.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Oath >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Show. Oath takes blue derp 2 card combo and makes it derp 1 card combo. Also, Oath with 4 x Brainstorm alleviates the only problem which is having your Oath targets in your hand.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Lord Seth
The only particularly competitive deck I can think of that can challenge that by wining before turn 3 is Storm, though I'm not sure its actual percentages of kills on turns 1 or 2.
Omnitell can win on turn 2 as it runs Sol lands that if drawn would enable it to cast S&T then.
MUD does have draws that can kill on tun 2, but it is Magical Christmas Land level of unlikely. Elves I think can kill on turn 2, but I am not certain on that.
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Originally Posted by
raudo
Show and tell has the same power level like Oath of druids.
Umm, WTF...
Seriously,no S&T is no where near the same level as Oath, S&T is 2 cards, and you opponent gets to drop something as well, Oath is 1 card and normally does not affect your opponent directly. Oath has been busted since it was released, and only gets better over time, S&T was a weak and underpowered card until MARO started power-creeping up the creatures and released Emrakul and Grisslebrand.
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Originally Posted by
raudo
Survival is much less broken than those two.
It is weaker then Oath, but I am fairy certain it is stronger then S&T. Survival works well with ALLOT of cards, and maked them broken on its own. while there are what 3 overpowered cards S&T is broken with.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
raudo
I continue my complaining. Show and tell has the same power level like Oath of druids. Survival is much less broken than those two. Come on wizards.
Oath is insane. Have you read the card text on Forbidden Orchard?
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
raudo
I continue my complaining. Show and tell has the same power level like Oath of druids. Survival is much less broken than those two. Come on wizards.
Also S&T is much stronger than mind desire or yawgmoth's Bargain, they should unban those too!
And survival is a really safe card to unban, is cool that a freaking gw midrange can burst you for 16 damage while is entire deck is now a 1 mana demonic tutor :laugh:
Being serious, i would love frantic to be unbanned, but maybe is a bit too much.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
jrw1985
Unbanning survival doesn't seem nearly as scary in an OmniTell/AbruptDecay/MonasteryMentor meta with RiP and Surgical Extraction as sideboard options. Not that I particularly relish the idea of salad elemental beats...
Not to say Stp->Snapcaster->StP against salad elemental.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Lord Seth
I can't find anything by him singling out Tron. There was that Modern article he wrote a while ago when he was complaining about there being too many uninteractive decks and that Jund/Junk was the only thing that could handle them because it had "catch all" spells like Thoughtseize while everyone else had to just hope for drawing their hate (though this seems less valid now due to the Delver decks re-emerging), with no specification of Tron.
At GP:Charlotte he was playing against Tim Turner on RG Tron and lost to some broken starts, after which he loudly complained about the uninteractive nature of Tron to people at the tournament. I don't know if you were at GP Charlotte or not, but I clearly got that sentiment from Paolo after that match.
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I don't know the full context, but floating an idea is very different from actually advocating it or thinking it could happen.
Basically, there is absolutely no good reason to believe the Tron lands are in any danger whatsoever in Modern. I'd be more worried about a fetchland ban than the Tron lands. (note: I think there's no chance of a fetchland ban. It's still more likely)
I don't think they'll ban Tron either, but the removal of 8th/9th edition certainly is an interesting idea.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
sjmcc13
Omnitell can win on turn 2 as it runs Sol lands that if drawn would enable it to cast S&T then.
MUD does have draws that can kill on tun 2, but it is Magical Christmas Land level of unlikely. Elves I think can kill on turn 2, but I am not certain on that.
Oh, I know they can win on turn 2. But I don't think they can do it consistently.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
I continue my one man fight comparing Show and tell against Oath of Druids.
Oath of druids works only your upkeep. It needs creature for an opponent who has millions of ways to get rid of it.
He can benefit from Oath and just destroy it his own turn.
Meanwhile show and tell. You just play this not skill intensive card and win. Back it up with gazillion of counterspells and cantrips. All blue.
Survival is horrible compared to both of these.
I have played all these decks. My two cents.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
There are few things that bind people together in this thread but you will find few here though that will agree with you.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Let's hope my order of a few Earthcrafts doesn't get canceled...
Really don't want to be priced out of my pet deck if/when the unbanning causes them to spike like mad.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
raudo
I continue my one man fight comparing Show and tell against Oath of Druids.
Oath of druids works only your upkeep. It needs creature for an opponent who has millions of ways to get rid of it.
He can benefit from Oath and just destroy it his own turn.
Meanwhile show and tell. You just play this not skill intensive card and win. Back it up with gazillion of counterspells and cantrips. All blue.
Survival is horrible compared to both of these.
I have played all these decks. My two cents.
I don't necessarily agree with your assessment of Oath (it's much more powerful and one sided than you made it out to be) but I do strongly agree with the rest.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
With Oath, you need Forbidden Orchard. You still have to pass the turn. You cant pitch them to FoW. Opponent gets time to response. Creature is still summoning sick.
With Show and Tell. You play Omniscience and win. Fun?
Im not saying unban Oath. Im saying unban Survival or better yet, ban Show and Tell. I hope you all play couple of weeks against Omnitell. Very fun indeed. Try to build a Survival deck against it. Or Oath deck. People are just blind to see the powerlevel of Show and Tell cause they have used to it.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
With Oath you need the opponent to have a creature, you don't need to have Orchard. Most decks do that themselves. If you play an Oath onto an empty board against a creature based deck you just lock them down. They can't play into it and your deck will be built to control anyway so if they try something else funny, you have answers.
It is not fair to compare Oath, a card that single handedly locks out whole decks, on its own let's you put a single choswn target in play fron your Library and happens to be on of the hardest class of permanents to remove to a card that, busted as it may be, 'only' drops a card fron your hand into play.
Oath tutors, cheats mana costs while it locks out whole strategies and if you think it's semantical at all, well I would not mind giving you a Delver if I get a Griselbrand. Seems fair.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Difference S&T - Oath of Druids:
1) CMC - 2U to 1G - this mean OoD is faster, but.. you must pass the turn so let say it's tide.
2) Both permanents doesn't have haste - tide, but while Oath fetch only a creature S&T can put any permanent - for example Omniscience which is probably closest "I win the game".
3) Symmetry - S&T is 100% symmetrical both players do the same - put permanent from hand to play, while Oath of Druids is conditional - proper build can break symmetry.
4) Activation of Oath of Druids feed graveyard stock, which open options - Show and Tell can't do that.
5) Show and Tell is two card combo - you need a good target in hand opposite to Oath of Druids which is conditional board state 1-card combo which is main reason why it is banned.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Show and tell should not be banned
1) Legacy is about doing powerful things. It is the only format outside of vintage where you can do that.
2) Legacy is not about grindy rock decks or fast agro which defines modern and standard
3) Are show and tell decks dominating like Miracles and Delver variants? The answer is of course no.
If all top 7/8 top decks in a 100+ tournament were show and tell decks, then I would agree, But this has never happened to my knowledge and if it did, it is
not consistent.
If Oath were unbanned, you might see 7/8 oath decks in top 8. Oath is good deck even in vintage.
4) This thread is about discussing the banning of cards, but we need to discuss the unbanning of cards and
banning show and tell is counter productive
5) Oath needs to stay banned for the reasons cited above, but survival does not and it was a knee jerk reaction the last time Wotc banned it. They
did not give the community long enough to adjust.
6) dig through time is also fair and needs to stay unbanned
7) I am tired of Wotc and their ban hammer. Look at how long Worldgorger dragon stayed on the banned list. I have not even seen one
WorldGorger dragon deck make top 16 let alone top 8.
8) Black Vise, Earthcraft, Survival of the Fittiest all need to come off. This will add more diversity to the format that is dominated by blue.
9) banning brainstorm is also a horrible idea. This card defines legacy. Let us be clear here Modern is worse than Legacy. It's not different.
It's worse. In Modern you pit 2 good/okay decks against each other in MTG history. In legacy you pit 2 of the most powerful decks in MTG history against each other. Let's take omnitell for example. Yes, you can win on turn 2 or 3. However, the other
guy/girl can play too. For example, first turn Thoughtseize, duress or force of will etc.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Sultai Delver 1st Bob Marshall StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Death and Taxes 2nd Travis Cowley StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Dredge 3rd Eric Copenhaver StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
4-Color Delver 4th Ben Rivello StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Miracles 5th Christopher Hawker StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Miracles 6th Bernard Liberati StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Miracles 7th Rob Long StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Grixis Delver 8th Jonathan Sukenik StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Starcity top 8 in baltimore - Not a single show and tell deck
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dragonwisdom
Sultai Delver 1st Bob Marshall StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Death and Taxes 2nd Travis Cowley StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Dredge 3rd Eric Copenhaver StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
4-Color Delver 4th Ben Rivello StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Miracles 5th Christopher Hawker StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Miracles 6th Bernard Liberati StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Miracles 7th Rob Long StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Grixis Delver 8th Jonathan Sukenik StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Starcity top 8 in baltimore - Not a single show and tell deck
... but how many DTT?
