Thirst is banned in Vintage because it's one of the best draw spells in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
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Thirst is banned in Vintage because it's one of the best draw spells in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
It is one of the best draw spells in vintage because decks can abuse it by running upwards of 15 artifacts (you know...the same 15 in every deck) and by running broken cards like Yawgmoth's Will to use whatever may have been discarded. Not to mention, 3 cards deep in a pile of broken cards is always a good thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG-Fan
Not to be picky, but it's restricted, not banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG-Fan
Different formats...Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG-Fan
Behold, the deadliness of Lotus Petal and Mystical Tutor. Truly powerful cards that every MUC player should run. When your deck is a pile of brokeness, any draw is good. When half the brokeness is artifacts and loaded with recursion, Thirst is off the charts. When you only have 8ish slots for artifacts and maybe 2 sources of recursion, it is not. Also, discarding cards, any cards, gives some pretty good hand information to our opponents. This is bad, as MUC always wants to project that aura of having a hand consisting of 7 force of will, 7 fact or fiction, 7 back to basics, and 7 shackles at all times. I just don't think you are giving the discard aspect of this card enough weight in your thinking, as it can be very signifigant.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG-Fan
I was trying to throw together a Mono-Blue Countertop/Dreadstill deck and came upon a real gem from M10 drafts...
has anyone considered Ice Cage as removal? I know, at first glance, it seems like total jank, but if you think about it, most decks only run spells that would not only get rid of Ice Cage, but of the creature that's caged too. I mean, what's zoo going to do if you cage their watchwolf or kird ape? Bolt it? Sword/Path it?
The only thing I can think of that gets rid of it without otherwise costing your opponent a card that could be used as burn to your face is pump--not a lot of decks run those. As for equipment...if a jitte resolves and gets active on you, you're probably losing that game anyway.
Furthermore, stifle/trickbind (not staples of MUC, I know) make it stick even longer. It seems like solid removal that buys enough time for Disk or whatever wipes the board later on...
Meh, it seems Ok at best. Best case scenario is a one-for-one trade, which isn't the greatest for control. Ideally control can deal with 2-3 creatures/permanents for one card. Ideally. Now, that is best case, but worst case scenario is after you stifle the ability, costing you another card, the player may still be able to do something about it. You never know which player has "hidden tech" in his deck, like Lavamancer or Scroll. :cry:Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonius
I remember once way back in the day when Masques was in Standard, I played against a rebel deck that used Cho-Manno's Blessing, which caught me off guard, suckered in my only removal spell, and ended up costing me the game. Lesson learned: you never know what someone will put in their deck.
The fact that Ice Cage is not permanent removal and/or doesn't deal with multiple threats at once makes me weary to rely on it.
Actually, MUC doesn’t have to dig for an answer. The only answers MUC has are those high-CC spells. Running four of them each, you should find them until round 4.Quote:
One of the main reasons you even want to play additional draw spells is to dig for answers. Thirst will let you dig 3 cards deep at instant speed. This is often the difference between losing and winning if you desperately need a Spell Snare, or a Force of Will to counter a critical spell during your opponent's turn.
Think Twice isn’t as bad as it may look like at first glance. Compared to Impulse you exchange a deep look into your library for the flashback.
@ bowvamp
Predict depends on brainstorm. As long as you don’t have a brainstorm in your hand, predict is a dead card. That being said predict rarely improves your early game.
Haha yes! Someone responds! I was getting worried there for a moment.
Predict doesn't entirely depend on brainstorm so long as you don't want to dig for lands, you can just name island.
Well, you’re right; it’s not as dead as I have thought it is. But I doubt it’s better than Think twice. If your prediction is false, it’s definitely worse. If you draw two cards through it, you draw the same amount of cards as you would have drawn through Think Twice, but at a lower cost.
At the moment, I think every card that draws two cards (= +1CA) is inferior to Think Twice, because Think Twice can be cast on turn two, and the effect is the same.
I saw a MUC version with faeries some time ago, and then I tried to build something similar to that:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
23 [IA] Island (2)
// Creatures
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
2 [UL] Cloud of Faeries
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
// Spells
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
4 [R] Counterspell
3 [9E] Mana Leak
2 [NE] Daze
2 [GP] Repeal
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [UD] Powder Keg
3 [US] Back to Basics
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [8E] Hibernation
SB: 3 [MM] Energy Flux
I don't have any FoWs, so this is the list I have so far. What else could be improved?
:eek: Too many creatures to be considered MUC, in my opinion, and they're the wrong type of creature (tiny). :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus
Why not just make a Faerie Stompy deck?
I agree, this deck is just... not MUC. The small creatures are just wrong for MUC.Quote:
Originally Posted by MMogg
In the early turns MUC is focusing on board control, and it cannot afford to tie up mana dropping (weak) threats.
In the late game these small creatures cannot compete with those enemy threats that got through your counter wall.
Moreover, they won't seal the game fast enough (ie, before you have to deploy a sweeper that destroys your own creatures as well as his).
Finally, those extra nine creatures are nine fewer draw/counters.
I'm not saying that blue creature decks can't work, just that it has to play very differently than MUC.
-Silent Requiem
These creatures are useful on their own (except for cloud of faeries, but it is awesome coupled with Spellstutter Sprite and it's free). They are counters, control magics and a decent clock/blocker with peek. Some builds play Vendilion Clique and Sower, so this is just one step closer to the edge. But you guys are right, it doesn't really feel like control, maybe more like a midrange deck. Anyways, these creatures have proved to be really decent in my recent testing against random decks, and that's probably what's going to be my meta. Those creatures can give you a fighting chance in the early game. And the sweepers usually are set @ 1, and that doesn't hurt my creatures. Even if set @ two, the only 2 faeries at that cc range are cloud + spellstutter, and spellstutter is there mainly for the counter effect. All creatures (except for Sower) have flash or cost 0 mana (if cloud of faeries is countered you are basically screwed. I may cut it soon) so you can leave mana open for counters.
The problem with running Faeries is that it makes all of your opponent's creature removal (Lightning Bolt, Fire//Ice, Swords to Plowshares, Engineered Plague, opposing Shackles, Wrath of God, etc etc) relevant.
One of the nice things about playing MUC is being a.) immune to wasteland/blood moon and b.) immune to creature removal
Faeries is a powerful deck in Extended, and can do reasonably well in Legacy, but Engineered Plague and generally more powerful anti-creature options prevent it from really being tier1 in this format, or even a better option than traditional MUC.
Ok, so what about...
Fowless MUC
// Lands
23 [ALA] Island (1)
// Creatures
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren
1 [US] Morphling
// Spells
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [VI] Impulse
2 [NE] Daze
3 [9E] Mana Leak
3 [UD] Powder Keg
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [R] Counterspell
1 [TE] Capsize
3 [US] Back to Basics
4 [TE] Propaganda
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
1 [EVE] Call the Skybreaker
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [OD] Divert
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [MM] Energy Flux
You absolutely need 4 Force of Will to be competitive in this format with MUC.
What do you guys think of running one or two Dazes? Even if you only play a single Daze, if your opponent knows that they are in your deck he has to hesitate and worry about his spell not resolving even when you tap out. I think that as a 2-of it should not really affect your land drops, but a singleton could only have a positive effect.
What do you guys think of Cryptic Command?
Cryptic Command and Daze should be addressed in the front page of this thread, because they seem to come up rather often among Standard players and the like.
- Daze is only decent in a deck with an early pressure game and a fast clock. In MUC, you really can't afford to nullify any of your land drops, because MUC is a very mana-hungry deck that only runs basics and no acceleration of any kind. Also, Daze is not that good unless you can capitalize with a fast clock, which MUC does not have, unlike Tempo Thresh or Merfolk. Your idea for using a single Daze to keep his opponent on his toes is a cute trick, but your opponents will quickly learn what you are up to eventually, and the mind game will lose most of its effectiveness.
- Cryptic Command is a versatile counterspell, but in Legacy it is simply too expensive to see play. For 4 mana, in Legacy, you should be doing stuff like casting Fact or Fiction and generating tons of card advantage, or wiping the board with Disk. Simply fogging for one turn, or countering a spell and cantripping, is not acceptable for 4 mana in this format, as it is in slower formats like Standard.
Ok. Well I don't play Legacy often IRL so I might just try the singleton daze. What about Ophidian?Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG-Fan