Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
I went 3-0 and split first with this list yesterday
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Tireless Tribe
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Golgari Thug
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge from Below
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
3 Darkblast
3 Breakthrough
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
Side Board
2 Wispmare
1 Ancestor's Chosen
4 Null Rod
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Firestorm
1 Iona
I'd have to say darkblast was MVP of the day. It literally won me games. My matchups were burn, zoo/landfall, and countertop.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Interesting sideboard. Were the Rods useful? Also: why no Grudge? Are five hosers enough? (Well - seven with Chains).
three Darkblasts main? Really? Also interesting...
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
I'll admit that the sideboard was a little sloppy. I didn't get to prepare for it as much as I wanted to. I put the rods in because there are a few affinity decks in my meta, and null rod is an auto win against most. Sensi's top was the only artifact I encountered in all 3 matches, and trying to blow it up would have been useless.
The 3 darkblasts were great. I was able to save my bridges by taking out fanatics against burn, it worked wonders against Steppe Lynx in zoo, and I took out a few critters in the countertop deck. I believe I'm going to run a 2/2 split with darkblast and thugs though because there were a few times where I would have loved one more black creature. I almost want to throw in the 4th dread return, but I'm going to play test some more before I really decide to or not. So far this list has been running great.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JonBarber
I'll admit that the sideboard was a little sloppy. I didn't get to prepare for it as much as I wanted to. I put the rods in because there are a few affinity decks in my meta, and null rod is an auto win against most. Sensi's top was the only artifact I encountered in all 3 matches, and trying to blow it up would have been useless.
The 3 darkblasts were great. I was able to save my bridges by taking out fanatics against burn, it worked wonders against Steppe Lynx in zoo, and I took out a few critters in the countertop deck. I believe I'm going to run a 2/2 split with darkblast and thugs though because there were a few times where I would have loved one more black creature. I almost want to throw in the 4th dread return, but I'm going to play test some more before I really decide to or not. So far this list has been running great.
You should consider running 4 ichorid before even thinking about running 4 dread return. Two Dread Return is often enough and three DR is almost always enough.
Have you consider running 2 undiscovered paradise instead of a split between paradise and tarnished citadel ? The odds of having 2 paradises in your opening hand is really low, and often the damage taken from tarnished citadel can make you loose game.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Raptor
You should consider running 4 ichorid before even thinking about running 4 dread return. Two Dread Return is often enough and three DR is almost always enough.
Have you consider running 2 undiscovered paradise instead of a split between paradise and tarnished citadel ? The odds of having 2 paradises in your opening hand is really low, and often the damage taken from tarnished citadel can make you loose game.
I really don't feel like the 4th ichorid is necessary. I never really found myself wishing for another Ichorid, but I did feel that way towards dread return, especially against control. As I said though, more testing will give me a better idea.
As for the tarnished citadel, I only had to take the 3 once, and it was the only damage I took the whole match. Another paradise might be a good idea, because I really like how it can speed up DDD (giving you 9 cards in hand). More testing will also help me decide what to do there.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Why run Sage, if Zendikar gave you this idiot? (Notice the absence of a comma)
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/zen/69.jpg
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JonBarber
I really don't feel like the 4th ichorid is necessary. I never really found myself wishing for another Ichorid, but I did feel that way towards dread return, especially against control. As I said though, more testing will give me a better idea.
As for the tarnished citadel, I only had to take the 3 once, and it was the only damage I took the whole match. Another paradise might be a good idea, because I really like how it can speed up DDD (giving you 9 cards in hand). More testing will also help me decide what to do there.
Well, in the lots of match that I've done versus Landstill or countertop, ichorid is definitly the MVP. They can cet sworded, and you really want them as much as possible. Anyway, you shouldn't have any problems agaisnt control decks. A month ago, I've tested about 10 matches against counter top (post side) siding out my DR and my 2 DR targets and it worked pretty well, I've lost 1 match or maybe 2.
By the way, more ichorid means more creature to sac to DR.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Raptor
often the damage taken from tarnished citadel can make you loose game.
I routinely take six from Citadel and have yet to lose a game to it. I've taken as much as twelve.
Cephalid Sage only forces you to discard two cards, which is relevant at times.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Raptor
Well, in the lots of match that I've done versus Landstill or countertop, ichorid is definitly the MVP. They can cet sworded, and you really want them as much as possible. Anyway, you shouldn't have any problems agaisnt control decks. A month ago, I've tested about 10 matches against counter top (post side) siding out my DR and my 2 DR targets and it worked pretty well, I've lost 1 match or maybe 2.
By the way, more ichorid means more creature to sac to DR.
Hmm.. You make a valid point. I might give it a try. But theres very little control in my meta, so idk if it would be as useful for me.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leander?
Bloodghast-Builds like to dredge a Salvage and be able to keep it to play it and then DR for the win.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
It seems that the most succesful lists of dredge all have a thing in common; they don't run bloodghasts at all.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aleksandr
Are the Leylines needed? Also: Realm Razer? I can imagine how powerful it is against control, but AFAIK, we destroy control anyway. (That's the reason why I don't even use Sadistic Hypnotist...)
I don't get why people don't play FKZ, but as far as it works for you...
I think these cards are metagame cards aimed at 43 lands and Aggro Loam. These decks maybe a significant presence where he plays. Furthermore, these decks both have serious game against dredge and have recently done well, so I guess, he aims to improve these match-ups with such changes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
Anybody else testing -4 Cephalid Coliseum for +4 Oboro, Palace in the Cloud? Cephalid Coliseum is a slow, conditional draw mechanic when compared to Breakthrough and Careful Study, the only thing Cephalid Coliseum has going for it is that it's a land + spell. Oboro has the same thing going for it, land + spell, except Oboro functions by itself, turn 1+, and fights thru' Crypt/Relic better. If the deck "needs" explosiveness, then I think Brainstorm is both overlooked and less conditional.
I've tried this, and the deck loses too much explosiveness. Both cards are problematic in terms of the mana that they produce. But the thing is, Coliseum is more useful in more ways and Oboro is. Oboro without bloodghasts is a joke, Coliseum even without dredgers are useful in putting cards in the graveyard which is speeds you up at least a couple of turns at least. Brainstorm doesn't dump cards back into the graveyard, in some instances it brings dredgers back into the library, which is counter-productive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JonBarber
The 3 darkblasts were great. I was able to save my bridges by taking out fanatics against burn, it worked wonders against Steppe Lynx in zoo, and I took out a few critters in the countertop deck. I believe I'm going to run a 2/2 split with darkblast and thugs though because there were a few times where I would have loved one more black creature. I almost want to throw in the 4th dread return, but I'm going to play test some more before I really decide to or not. So far this list has been running great.
Grats on the strong finish. I agree about the darkblasts I play 2 myself, finding space to make it 3. I don't play Thugs though. Blasts are better in more ways than thug honestly, the utility of the card is great especially in some metagames.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JonBarber
I really don't feel like the 4th ichorid is necessary. I never really found myself wishing for another Ichorid, but I did feel that way towards dread return, especially against control. As I said though, more testing will give me a better idea.
As for the tarnished citadel, I only had to take the 3 once, and it was the only damage I took the whole match. Another paradise might be a good idea, because I really like how it can speed up DDD (giving you 9 cards in hand). More testing will also help me decide what to do there.
4 Ichorids are not necessary in a build like yours that is focused on pulling-off a dread return combo, I assume that is why you want a 4th dread return. Unless you face targeted removal of cards in the graveyard like extirpate, and withered wretch, 3 Ichorids are enough. Do try to toy around with bloodghasts as they make the dread return combo easier to pull-off. If you aim to play returns often, ichorids are a turn slower in being relevant in doing this compared to bloodghasts. Bloodghasts are also better against non-blue decks.
I also suggest the 2nd Paradise, as I experienced taking 12 damage with it against burn once. Paradise is a better land than Citadel to get in mulligan hands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ddt15
It seems that the most succesful lists of dredge all have a thing in common; they don't run bloodghasts at all.
Are you serious? -> http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...postcount=1151
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
The problem tho' is Cephalid Coliseum loses "utility" game 2 where Oboro, Palace in the Cloud gains "utility" game 2 because the first is deterred by hate while the second thrives vs it. Also Cephalid Coliseum has piss poor synergy with Undiscovered Paradise, which leads me to believe the Bloodghast plan should put Cephalid Coliseum on the back burner.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
To those that have tested Bloodghast builds, is Dakmor Salvage enough to activate Blooghast or would Eternal Witness be good? Just from playing non-LED non-BG, I very rarely get more than an opening land into play. DS is just a once-off, but with EW you can get your Paradise online, as well as other useful effects (returning Breakthough etc). I know its not a new concept but I didn't see it in the lists bum_man linked to so wondered what happened in this space.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AcidFiend
To those that have tested Bloodghast builds, is Dakmor Salvage enough to activate Blooghast or would Eternal Witness be good? Just from playing non-LED non-BG, I very rarely get more than an opening land into play. DS is just a once-off, but with EW you can get your Paradise online, as well as other useful effects (returning Breakthough etc). I know its not a new concept but I didn't see it in the lists bum_man linked to so wondered what happened in this space.
Eternal Witness is solid, it's the only non-Iona target I'd bother running, because recurring Cephalid Coliseum to recur Bloodghasts and then draw/dredge is better than any other play via FKZ or Sphinx. Generally tho', it's not so much the "one shot" Bloodghast activations you want, but the recurring Bloodghast activations by UP/Oboro that break the bastards in half.
Edit: I run Eternal Witness over Dakmor Salvage(s) MD, SB out Eternal Witness for Dakmor Salvage game 2. Generally they can't keep you off Dread Return -> Eternal Witness game 1 and recurring an UP/Oboro is better than recurring a Dakmor Salvage because your Blood Ghasts are endless. Game 2 Crypt disrupts the Dread Return -> Eternal Witness plan, so you're better off with Dakmor (doesn't force you to lose 3 guys to Crypt in response to Dread Return)
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
The problem tho' is Cephalid Coliseum loses "utility" game 2 where Oboro, Palace in the Cloud gains "utility" game 2 because the first is deterred by hate while the second thrives vs it. Also Cephalid Coliseum has piss poor synergy with Undiscovered Paradise, which leads me to believe the Bloodghast plan should put Cephalid Coliseum on the back burner.
Once your bloodghast gets crypted away Oboro will become a brick. It doesn't thrive in hate so much. While Coliseum, once crypted you can still recover. both cards are deterred by hate but Coliseum helps you recover better, while Oboro is, well. a brick. Paradise don't work well with Coliseums, that I have to admit. But I'd rather have Coliseum rather than a brick in my hand anytime. Playing Oboro's with Paradises for me is awful, too much cards alotted that mess with the deck for a complimentary creature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AcidFiend
To those that have tested Bloodghast builds, is Dakmor Salvage enough to activate Blooghast or would Eternal Witness be good? Just from playing non-LED non-BG, I very rarely get more than an opening land into play. DS is just a once-off, but with EW you can get your Paradise online, as well as other useful effects (returning Breakthough etc). I know its not a new concept but I didn't see it in the lists bum_man linked to so wondered what happened in this space.
This is very interesting, I'm afraid I haven't tested witness yet in this build. Salvage is only used to enable ghasts as a last resort or when you combo-out a lethal FKZ swarm. You won't need to recur bloodghasts every turn in most cases anyway, I usually beat with Ichorids and bring back bloodghasts in the homestretch. So I haven't really looked into this, I'll probably do so though when I get a Witness.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bum_man
Once your bloodghast gets crypted away Oboro will become a brick. It doesn't thrive in hate so much. While Coliseum, once crypted you can still recover. both cards are deterred by hate but Coliseum helps you recover better, while Oboro is, well. a brick. Paradise don't work well with Coliseums, that I have to admit. But I'd rather have Coliseum rather than a brick in my hand anytime. Playing Oboro's with Paradises for me is awful, too much cards alotted that mess with the deck for a complimentary creature.
This is very interesting, I'm afraid I haven't tested witness yet in this build. Salvage is only used to enable ghasts as a last resort or when you combo-out a lethal FKZ swarm. You won't need to recur bloodghasts every turn in most cases anyway, I usually beat with Ichorids and bring back bloodghasts in the homestretch. So I haven't really looked into this, I'll probably do so though when I get a Witness.
The problem tho' is Coliseum is a turn 3 activation where Oboro is a turn 2 activation that doesn't require 2 land drops in game 2. Oboro is more conducive to DDD than Coliseum, because it puts 1 card on the board instead of 2, and Oboro is effectively 0 cards on board with it's ability - thus you can return to DDD immediately after playing it. Even if a Bloodghast is Crypted, it's 1 Bloodghast out of 4. Oboro is never a brick, because inevitably, it turns into a recurring source of threats thru' how the deck naturally plays post-board game 2.
Arguably tho', Oboro/Dakmor may be better as SB cards than MD cards game 2 vs Crypt and co. since Oboro/Dakmor are sort of undesirable vs non-U match ups game 1.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Oboro might be good against Crypt, but the DDD plan doesnīt work against Relic :/ I tried Bloodghast in some different builds now and for now it seems that heīs good, but the sacrifice you have to make him good isnīt worth it.
I only recurred him with Paradise and almost never thought "woa just won `cause of Bloodghast".
Imho it canīt be good to add a horrible card like Oboro just to make another one work better...
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
The problem tho' is Coliseum is a turn 3 activation where Oboro is a turn 2 activation that doesn't require 2 land drops in game 2.
I doubt that an Oboro activation will ever be relevant in turn 2 of the game except for maybe getting ghast into play and avoiding a wasteland. Regardless of any turn of the game, Coliseum almost always wins you the game after an activation pre-board or post-board. Oboro doesn't do this, it also slows the deck's goldfish so bad since playing 4 of this takes away 4 more ways for the deck to win now. Oboro is a good card at enabling bloodghast. It's just that, the way I play GhastDredge, I don't need Bloodghast to be overwhelming be powerful. I just want to make Bloodghast good enough so that it plays well with combo strategy of my list. Just this afternoon, I was able to squeek out a close match after getting hit by 3 crypt on the back of 3 bloodghasts and a narcomoeba that was made possible by a topdecked Coliseum activation into ghasts into win the following turn. The speed and explosiveness that Coliseum brings to the deck is replaceable imo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
Oboro is more conducive to DDD than Coliseum, because it puts 1 card on the board instead of 2, and Oboro is effectively 0 cards on board with it's ability - thus you can return to DDD immediately after playing it. Even if a Bloodghast is Crypted, it's 1 Bloodghast out of 4. Oboro is never a brick, because inevitably, it turns into a recurring source of threats thru' how the deck naturally plays post-board game 2.
I personally don't like playing DDD with the deck any game against any opponent. Even post-board against blue or anything, I don't DDD all the way, I usually DDD, rip their resources/counters apart, then combo for the win against anyone not thresh. Dredging into Grudges keep their hate cards in check so that you can force them to crypt you prematurely with a small graveyard. I don't think building around a DDD plan is wise because I don't think this deck needs any more help on DDD. Any generic Dredge list can win a match through DDD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
Arguably tho', Oboro/Dakmor may be better as SB cards than MD cards game 2 vs Crypt and co. since Oboro/Dakmor are sort of undesirable vs non-U match ups game 1.
I personally don't mind Dakmor game 1's since they bring back bloodghasts mid-combo turn to win. I do mind Oboro game 1 because seriously, this card just gives up too much speed for the sake of making bloodghasts immortal. I think, it's overkill and it's re-tuning the deck too much around bloodghast, a complimentary creature in the deck. Oboro could be used as an sb card, but I think it kinda wastes the 3-4 slots it takes up for an unnecessary good, and again, I just don't like making the deck slower.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NQN
Oboro might be good against Crypt, but the DDD plan doesnīt work against Relic :/
EXACTLY
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NQN
I tried Bloodghast in some different builds now and for now it seems that heīs good... but the sacrifice you... I only recurred him with Paradise and almost never thought "woa just won `cause of Bloodghast".
I agree. For me Bloodghast was over-hyped too much especially in dredge. People thought this card alone is going to be the deck's Messiah and warp the deck into a whole new level much like how Bridge From Below and Narcomoeba did to the Sutured Ghoul Dredge back in the day. Ghast is not like a Kobe that wins you games on his own. He's more like a Gasol, a compliment, a card that isn't ape shit on its own, but within the deck's system and around the right pieces, definitely the card makes the deck better and takes it to a whole new level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NQN
...but the sacrifice you have to make him good isnīt worth it... Imho it canīt be good to add a horrible card like Oboro just to make another one work better...
This really depends on how much you tweak the deck in my case, I changed 4 Gemstone Mines for 4 Undiscovered Paradise and formerly only 2 Paradises into 2 Dakmor Salvage. I also cut one-ofs of cards like tireless tribe, a Reveillark, and Dredger. For me, the effect of losing these cards are very minimal compared to the overwhelmingly good effect of how bloodghast plays in this deck. Like I've previously mentioned, fitting new cards in an old system is only a matter of finding the right balance and focus in the deck. Playing 4 Oboro is an example of taking a step into the wrong direction imo because it brings focus too much one aspect of the deck(triggering landfall on bloodghast) while it significantly makes all other aspects worse(land configuration, winning through combo, speed, explosiveness, resiliency).
Question: Does this deck suffer greatly in terms of the ratios of getting the cards you want drawn in your starting hand and dredged when you start dredging, by going to 61 cards. Bloodghast has been really good to me these past few days and I've been thinking of fitting-in a 4th one in but I can't find a spot in the deck so I've decided to try and play the deck on 61 cards. Oh, and my deck looks like this now:
// Lands 14 //
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Dakmor Salvage
// Sorcery 14 //
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
3 Breakthrough
// Enchantments 4 //
4 Bridge from Below
// Instant 2 //
2 Darkblast
// Creatures 27 //
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
2 Tireless Tribe
3 Ichorid
4 Blooghast
So far, the can still win within 4 turns undisrupted, the mulligans are up to its usual standards, so are the dredges. The difference is the deck's stability and resiliency against hate post-board. It's a beast. I'll try to test this out by playing it for a few more days and post results after. Just asking for insights.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
I've just finished 3/21 with Bloodghast Non-LED winning a Grindstone.
round 1: Eva Green. Both me and my opponent went to four game2 and I lost it. G3 we had giant brainfart, but mine was not that hurtful, so I won when he Thoughtseized me incorectely (I had three lands on the bottlefield and my hand was: 2x DReturn, 1x Sphinx, 1x City; he discarded the Sphinx, after triple DReturn I won)
round 2: WB agrrocontrol. I won the first game through the Ghostly Prison and Tombstalker+Jitte with a 11/11 Troll.
round three: Dreadstill. I overboarded in G3 and lost.
round four: Kavu.dec. I've lost game two, even though I had "perfect" draw. (triple Grudge, BFB, Ignatio Chevalier, PImp, rainbow land, draw Salvage and Breakthrough.) He defeated me with some Berserk action, but maybe I should try the BT-->Salvage... who can tell.
Game three I played the usual nonsense with 28 zombies and Troll or two, but in fact I was very close to defeat, as he attacked me for 21 the turn before I won. (I had 23 life and I also blocked the 16/16 Kavu with a Sphinx. But it was really close.) I DReturned Bliskawychniy Arxont (just for sure) and than I turned sideways a vulgar ammount of zombies.
I remember one game winning with a 21/21 hasted Troll and nothing else, not even Moeba, (well, there was a FKZ, too...). These are the wins I like the most, because they are really hardly earned, as you spend all your resources on Therapies, DReturns, etc., and then in the end you have just one enormous Troll and still somehow manage to win...
