[Archetype] CounterTop

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

What does this deck do in the event that Reanimator get an Iona in play naming white and we lack counters (or enough counters) to stop it?

Do you know of any non-white removal spells that could be used?

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Curfew is good if you can handle the tempo loss.

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Originally Posted by Malakai

If you'll note, I responded directly after his Plumveil post to say it wasn't viable. The conversation should have ended there.

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Your response was: "Plumveil is nowhere approaching playable in Legacy." The problem that Shimi had with this post (As an aside, I agree with him) is that it had no justification at all. We were simply supposed to accept your blanket statement as true. Based on what? Your overwhelming knowledge of the format?

Why is your word the ultimate, end-all response? Shimi was simply expressing his opinion that he thought The Source is/should be a place where people can come to discuss options for decks, provide feedback for each other, and develop the best possible deck. You've expressed your opinion that you do not believe this to be the purpose of The Source. But unless the Moderators decide to side with you, and only allow what they decide to be "appropriate content," then Shimi will continue to have every right to use The Source for his intended purpose. Who do you, or anyone else here, think you are, to call his posts "useless" or label him "foolish" because he asked for some input, or provided some ideas in an attempt to make the deck better?

I say props to Shimi for attempting (and succeeding in!) a bit of [healthy] discussion and slops to you for squashing innovation and insulting perfectly intelligent fellow players and forumgoers.

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Originally Posted by Lego

Your response was: "Plumveil is nowhere approaching playable in Legacy." The problem that Shimi had with this post (As an aside, I agree with him) is that it had no justification at all. We were simply supposed to accept your blanket statement as true. Based on what? Your overwhelming knowledge of the format?

Why is your word the ultimate, end-all response? Shimi was simply expressing his opinion that he thought The Source is/should be a place where people can come to discuss options for decks, provide feedback for each other, and develop the best possible deck. You've expressed your opinion that you do not believe this to be the purpose of The Source. But unless the Moderators decide to side with you, and only allow what they decide to be "appropriate content," then Shimi will continue to have every right to use The Source for his intended purpose. Who do you, or anyone else here, think you are, to call his posts "useless" or label him "foolish" because he asked for some input, or provided some ideas in an attempt to make the deck better?

I say props to Shimi for attempting (and succeeding in!) a bit of [healthy] discussion and slops to you for squashing innovation and insulting perfectly intelligent fellow players and forumgoers.

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Thx Lego.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

What does this deck do in the event that Reanimator get an Iona in play naming white and we lack counters (or enough counters) to stop it?

Do you know of any non-white removal spells that could be used?

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I never lost a match to reanimator with Counterbalance Decks and I think we don't need a non-white or slow removal just because of tis matchup.
You should have mull to a decent hand to fight reanimator( in my Countertop Progenitus I have spell pierce from side to help) but if it is a Game 1 and you keep a decent hand and they go off T2 or T3 you should try to race then with your Goyf or RWM(if it landed before Iona and counting that the reanimator player lost 9-10 life due to fetch + reanimate).In Progenitus builds you can try a fast Progenitus to race them.Remeber that sometimes 2 Goyf stalls a Iona or a Inkwell and that you must becareful with their bounce spells.

So what about Linvala, the Keeper of Silence? She's a flyer with a null rod effect for creatures. It sounds good on paper and all but she could be removed easily with creature removal spells.. I can't seem to find any other creatures fit for Supreme Blue and Plumveil isn't something I am looking for.

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Originally Posted by Lego

Your response was: "Plumveil is nowhere approaching playable in Legacy." The problem that Shimi had with this post (As an aside, I agree with him) is that it had no justification at all. We were simply supposed to accept your blanket statement as true. Based on what? Your overwhelming knowledge of the format?

Why is your word the ultimate, end-all response? Shimi was simply expressing his opinion that he thought The Source is/should be a place where people can come to discuss options for decks, provide feedback for each other, and develop the best possible deck. You've expressed your opinion that you do not believe this to be the purpose of The Source. But unless the Moderators decide to side with you, and only allow what they decide to be "appropriate content," then Shimi will continue to have every right to use The Source for his intended purpose. Who do you, or anyone else here, think you are, to call his posts "useless" or label him "foolish" because he asked for some input, or provided some ideas in an attempt to make the deck better?

I say props to Shimi for attempting (and succeeding in!) a bit of [healthy] discussion and slops to you for squashing innovation and insulting perfectly intelligent fellow players and forumgoers.

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I already pointed out my mistake, and provided justification. As far as foolish, I was referring to the half dozen or so responses that came after, that shouldn't have. There's nothing wrong with making suggestions; there is something wrong with entertaining those suggestions and thereby misinforming both the person who suggested it, and anyone else who might've in their stead.

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Originally Posted by Malakai

I already pointed out my mistake, and provided justification. As far as foolish, I was referring to the half dozen or so responses that came after, that shouldn't have. There's nothing wrong with making suggestions; there is something wrong with entertaining those suggestions and thereby misinforming both the person who suggested it, and anyone else who might've in their stead.

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This I will agree with! And if we take the time to address the reasoning, we educate not only the person who made the suggestion, but I think also ourselves sometimes.

Moving on with the discussion!

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Originally Posted by 4zureSky

So what about Linvala, the Keeper of Silence? She's a flyer with a null rod effect for creatures. It sounds good on paper and all but she could be removed easily with creature removal spells.. I can't seem to find any other creatures fit for Supreme Blue and Plumveil isn't something I am looking for.

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4 mana with double white? I'm having problems coming up with a good list of creatures that have abilities that get shut off by it. Qasali Pridemage is about all I can think of that's really nice to "needle"...and maybe Grim Lavamancer. Elves is probably most hurt by it. I could see it having a little bit of use against UW Tempo IF you can generate the mana to drop her and they have no counters.

The point I'm trying to hit here is that most creatures that are good rely on creatures that have passive or triggered abilities or none at all. You're better off running Pithing Needle to drop it earlier, have it immune to creature removal, hit non-creatures, not be restricted by the double white against decks that pack Wasteland.

Do you mind posting your list? I know you were looking for another creature for Supreme Blue, and I'm just not sure what you want from it. Maybe Vendilion Clique, which can be a pseudo-discard or pseudo-cantrip creature that flies. Or Sower of Tempation.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

What does this deck do in the event that Reanimator get an Iona in play naming white and we lack counters (or enough counters) to stop it?

Do you know of any non-white removal spells that could be used?

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This is also a relevant question vs. Bant Survival.

Some people have opted to play MD bounce (see for example http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=31856) in the form of Jace TMS and chain of Vapor maindeck.

Post-board, some have decided to side-in Wash Out (or Hibernation, which is weaker because less polyvalent and prone to cause screw-ups, read tempo loss, IMO) or Sower of T..

Hope this helps...

P.S.: I agree that this thread has gone down the drain during the last year... sadface...

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Originally Posted by aTn

This is also a relevant question vs. Bant Survival.

Some people have opted to play MD bounce (see for example http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=31856) in the form of Jace TMS and chain of Vapor maindeck.

Post-board, some have decided to side-in Wash Out (or Hibernation, which is weaker because less polyvalent and prone to cause screw-ups, read tempo loss, IMO) or Sower of T..

Hope this helps...

P.S.: I agree that this thread has gone down the drain during the last year... sadface...

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Regarding Jace, isn't 4 mana a little bit high for a removal spell against a deck that pumps out Iona by turn 1-2? I know it's not always a guarantee that they reanimate by then, but if they do, you have until their turn 4 or 5 before you're dead. And they have counters for your counters and your answer is an untutorable singleton.

Chain of Vapor is a much faster answer, but it's also an untutorable answer.

It's kind of funny to me, because adding CoV and JTMS reminds me a little bit of how some Tempo Thresh decks run 2 bounce spells. It's just really random.

Tempo Thresh running bounce spells makes pretty good sense. Those two bounce spells are usually enough to remove a creature or some random permanent so that the thresh player can either keep their opponent off mana to cast it, counter it, or just attack for the win. Bounce, however, gets much worse if your opponent is allowed to just re-cast whatever you bounced.

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As for Vendillion Clique, I've found it to be not-so-good in Supreme Blue. The problem is that the Clique is an inherently offensive creature, so its evasion and high power-to-toughness ratio end up being mostly wasted in a deck trying to stop the bleeding. The creature shines in a deck like Tempo Thresh, as all of its abilities and stats are in line with that deck's game plan. Unfortunately, I don't really think there is a card that fits does what you want in that slot any better. The solution, I've found, is change the maindeck in such a way as to eliminate that slot entirely.

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Originally Posted by chokin

Do you mind posting your list? I know you were looking for another creature for Supreme Blue, and I'm just not sure what you want from it. Maybe Vendilion Clique, which can be a pseudo-discard or pseudo-cantrip creature that flies. Or Sower of Tempation.

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I've played Supreme Blue since Gencon of last year, and I play 2 Sower of Temptation in the Mainboard. He's great in the countertop mirrors, as he often gets by Counterblance and swings an bad board position into your favor, not to mention he is also a great answer for Iona. The Reanimator/Survival player almost has to name white since we play swords, then Sower comes in. He's been awesome in so many MUs, plus he's a 4cc for Counterbalance (and I don't currently have a Jace).

Has anyone tested maindeck Control Magic over maindeck Sowers? I have the suspicion that the aura is better overall, as it dodges all forms of removal. I feel too often the Sower ends up being ineffectual, as they just swords/path/burn it out.

But the problem, alot of decks are playing qasali atm, so I think sower is better because you've got 2 beasts and it's a creature^^
Okay against decks like zoo they suck but yeah...

Here's what I can think of to answer reanimated fatties at the moment.

Targeted bounce (e.g. Chain of vapor, Jace TMS);
Non-targeted bounce (e.g. Curfew, Lawan C.E., Hibernation, Wash Out);
Targeted control of creature (e.g. Sower of T.)
Edit effects (e.g. Wing Shards)

All have their pros-cons; for example, targeted answers don't deal with shroud fatties (obviously).

Making your choice based on polyvalence of the SB option, i.e. if it'll be useful in other MUs, might prove to be a good idea.

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Regarding Jace, isn't 4 mana a little bit high for a removal spell against a deck that pumps out Iona by turn 1-2?

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I've played MD Jace TMS and it's a potential solution for when their initial attempt at reanimation fails (i.e. gets countered).

It's good in conjunction with 1 x Chain of Vapor or another MD bounce spell.

Jace TMS also gives you a waaay better MU vs. lands.dec, which seems to creep its ugly head more and more in Top8s these days...

That being said, it's definitely a metagame call.

@Malakai
I have been using 2x Control Magic in the side for my non-counter top decks with much success. Control Magic is more resilient then Sower of Temptation. However, since the nature of this thread is using CB I would opt to use Sower over Control Magic and use it in the main. CB can protect it and worse case it is a 2/2 with flying. In short, use control magic in the side for no one wants dead cards. Sower can be used in the main because it can at least swing for 2 and CB give the protection required for it not to be "countered" at a later time (ie burned out/removed).

@aTn
If you can get behind the WW of wing shards i think you will find it to be the best option. Hits progenitus and shroud reanimator targets. Usefeul against Zoo. They will sometimes burn or path then swing with team. Goblins play lords first then swing same with merfolk all netting you 2-1's. Not to mention if you can brainstorm first too. Even canadian thresh will try to get threshhold then swing in with their shroud goose and lose them. I would use them in conjuction with washout or sower/control magic. Noble Hierarch would really help with the casting cost of UU and WW.

I once saw someone attempting to use Elspeth, Knight-Errant in the 4CMC slots.

Did anyone ever test her in this deck?

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

I once saw someone attempting to use Elspeth, Knight-Errant in the 4CMC slots.

Did anyone ever test her in this deck?

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UGH I wish people would use the search function. This is exactly how threads get derailed, when certain cards are brought up again and again. I know the search engine doesn't go back past the forum switch (still?), but it still has plenty of info from that point forward. I searched for elspeth and came up with three pages of posts. Here are a couple of them:

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Originally Posted by psu42

When I started playing Supreme Blue I ran Elspeth over Natural Order. I personally found her too easily removeable to creature swarm decks (merfolk, zoo, goblins) and that the deck lacked a true finisher. ...I guess if your meta isn't infested with merfolk, dredge, zoo or goblins, Elspeth might be good.

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Originally Posted by andrew77

I don't like elspeth at all. I also don't believe you need extra finishers if you already have goyfs and war monks. If you don't want to run the NO package try cryptic command in the 4cc slot. A friend of mine ran a u/g/w list with cryptics and he said they were fantastic. I've never tested it since I the uuu is too hard to get in my ugb list since I run 4 basics and wastelands.

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Originally Posted by gamegeek2

I really don't think double-colored cards belong in 4-color counterTop - which is why I stick with either my own version of UWGR or play UWG w. NO.

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Originally Posted by Cenarius

The reason WHY I posted my list is pretty easy to explain and I think I already said it in my post. I believe that there is ONE list that is thé best in your metagame. In my metagame, I believe we all share the same metagame, Elspeth, Knight Errant is superior to NO/Prog.
Let me give some arguments:

Elspeth is:
hard to kill (only vindicate can kill it)
makes your clock faster
can make infinitie 1/1 blockers
kills your opponent Elspeth, Knight Errant (something we can consider to happen atleast once)
less vunerable to agro
makes all of your creatures so much better (especially Rhox War Monk)

Natural order can be stopped more easier by destroying the creature he or she wants to sacrifice. Elspeth doesn't require a creature on the board. It's broken enough without.

I think the reason why people play Progenitus is because it's a 10/10 beast. Something they think is cool to have. But is it in fact the best choice? I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

I've been playing the Supreme Blue + Progenitus build for the last few weeks, and you may be right to a degree about people just liking putting a 10/10 into play. I mean, the majority of the reason I took the deck to AU instead of my trusty Zoo deck was because I wanted to put progenitus in play... ;p but while I respect the power of Elspeth, I feel like she serves a different function than NO does. While Elspeth can provide a very large advantage with less set up, she does not end the game as quickly or as definitively as Progenitus does. She can be killed by opposing burn and creature rushes, too, which is a serious concern. You can't play her in the face of an enemy who is currently ahead by more than a little. Progenitus, though, since he is on his own so powerful, can pull you out of terrible board positions as long as you still have ~5 or so life or a chumper or two to hold the fort while he does his work. It's the opponent's complete inability to do shit about him once he's resolved that makes him such an asset.

I dunno, that's just my take on the matter. Elspeth's definitely good, and I don't blame anyone for running her; I just prefer NO.

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Originally Posted by GUnit

Cenarius,

I'm a little confused as to why you take it for granted that the deck needs a "finisher" at all. Tarmogoyf and friends normally do a pretty good job by themselves from my experiences. I'm not saying that the deck is "better" with or without a finisher; I'm merely trying to suggest that it's something that still bears consideration. Reviewing tournament results and decklists it would appear that my confusion is warranted because decks are doing well with and without the 4-drop "finishers."

That being said, Elspeth and Prog have their pros and cons for sure. Elspeth is relatively tough to kill for a lot of decks, but most decks have no way at all to kill progenitus. Progenitus provides a faster clock, pitches to force of wil and can flat-out steal games that you'd otherwise lose, but is pretty awkward when drawn (until it's BS'd away). Progenitus demands a bare minimum number of green dudes, and it opens you up to being 2-for-1'd if NO gets countered. Really, the question that needs to be answered is: "What issue am I addressing by adding these finishers? Which games are they winning for me which my deck wouldn't already win? What am I sacrificing by making room for these cards?" I believe that the answers to those questions, which are certainly dependent on your metagame, will lead you to decide which of the two, if any, is appropriate for your deck.

Of course, the other valid point to consider is the prescence of 4-drops in your curve for countertop, which I believe is the true reason that these slots are appealing. If that is the real driver behind this decision, then other strong 4-drops ought to factor into your analysis as well, such as Sower of Temptation, for example.

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So please people, use the search function once in awhile, especially if you think "man I got this killer card from invasion and the whole merfolk thread is gonna love me for revealing it to their blind eyes"

as anyone tried jenera,asura of war? 2-3. i saw someone use that card and i did well on the tourny. personnally i think its mana intensive but i will test it to see it

If we can pay for rhox war monk we can definitely pay for Jenara. And actually Jenara is exactly the card I was looking for in my countertop deck. It has flying and it can survive even though I firespout due to the pumping ability she has. Thank you so much! :D

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

UGH I wish people would use the search function. This is exactly how threads get derailed, when certain cards are brought up again and again. I know the search engine doesn't go back past the forum switch (still?), but it still has plenty of info from that point forward. I searched for elspeth and came up with three pages of posts. Here are a couple of them:



So please people, use the search function once in awhile, especially if you think "man I got this killer card from invasion and the whole merfolk thread is gonna love me for revealing it to their blind eyes

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And how long ago were they? A year ago? 6 months? I already knew about those posts. I was asking for recent tests of the card, not tests from a year ago. Think about that before you jump down someone throat and belittle them.