[Deck] Dredge

"Post board, The match is pretty even, with a slight advantage for Dredge.

Affinity is becoming a real powerhouse. It can constantly beat everything but Storm. "

True in all points IMO. Its NOT an easy one.

In general, I think that judging the Top 16 list unworthy is a bit overeager. I havent playtested it so I said its weird (which it is, no offense included). I wouldnt be too surprised that its not bad at all afterall. Another important factor is that the American Meta is more than slightly different from the meta in other countries. Watching SCG'S live stream, I heard the following sentence: "GY hate is so much overrated in Legacy." I mean, woot?!? This wasnt ment for kidding, it was ment srsly. Seems like GY-based decks arent such a big part of the meta over there, havent analyzed the sb's to see how much they put into their sb for GY-hate. Not saying that inconsistent lists can win easier, just sayin... .

@edgarps: Speaking from my point of view I really don't like the list because it lacks the consistence that a regular list (like the one CT posted) has accomplished around the time. We have tested Brainstorm as well as Bloodghast + Paradise and we came to the conclusion that they are weaker then Citadell and Breakthrough / Study. Both aren't new ideas and browing those 1200 pages you'll find them for sure, as well as there pros/ cons.
On a sidenote I just finished 1st at a small local tournament,beating Spanish Inquisition, WW and Dreadstill , while losing to Team America.

@CabalTherapy
I like very much the standard list, which is the one you play without Iona, and I was going to try Iona as only DR target. Nice to know it worked =)

@I am the brainwasher
Nice options of DR targets there ^^

I like Aura Thief tech, although I don't know how impressive it is against enchantress yet, since they will still have their lands, enchanted with their accelerators, and probably their argothians as well... we still need to be faster than their hate too...

Massacre wurm seems fun, although you could probably use Havoc Demon there and kill everything, even with lords online ^^

Sorry, was testing to see whether my message vanished.

Blake McCracken (UNLEASH MCCRACKEN) didn't even run Ravager. Or Atog. Or Thopter Foundry.

They can kill your Bridges, but they can't beat a giant Troll.

Serenity beats Affinity and Enchantress.

That dredge deck was doing something right. I was also at the 5k in dallas. Did pretty bad running parcher dredge. Led list with hypnos. I really don't like how the led ichorid list seems to beat itself before the game starts. I know I'm gonna shuffle ujp the bloodghast list..

I'm playing a 4x Ichorid/3x Careful Study/1 DR target build without LED - I already play 4x Breakthrough, and I was considering to maximize Study, too. Do you think going down to 3x Ichorids is an acceptable choice? Also, since Survival took the banhammer, I felt like 2x Ray of Revelation in sb were unnecessary: should I play a singleton Ray and make room for the 4th Ichorid, in case my opponent plays StP/I need to slowroll my opponent (or in case my only maindeck DR target, Iona, is a suboptimal choice in a given matchup)?

P.S. - Hypothetically speaking, with the exception of fast decks (Burn/Storm/Belcher/Spring Tide), should I take out Breakthrough, g2/g3? Those are, for obvious reasons, the most difficult games to play: since a good hand should have a discard outlet, a dredger and a (gold) land, and g2 is sometimes a war of attrition, isn't the ability to sculpt your hand and not be totally cold to a Relic worth the trade-off of losing a fast and cheap gamebreaker? I'm simply asking this because of Gaddock Teeg and because sometimes I hate when my only discard outlet is a Breakthrough, and taking mulligans will only worsen the situation. Thanks in advance.

Anyway, 3 Dredge in SCG LA T16. Voltron, time to Sleeve up that foil dredge deck. I'm gonna do the same too. :)

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

Anyway, 3 Dredge in T16. Voltron, time to Sleeve up that foil dredge deck. I'm gonna do the same too. :)

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3 in top 16 and 1 in top 8... get your trolls ready,Elias.

What do you think about their lists?

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5833

The T8 one is the one that looks more like the one most regularly played, but runs only 9 gold lands, with paradise, and cuts Therapy instead of Study, probably because he needs the blue discard to work, since his 13 lands can produce U...
Also, 4 Ichorids... is that necessary?

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Originally Posted by Gui

What do you think about their lists?

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5833

The T8 one is the one that looks more like the one most regularly played, but runs only 9 gold lands, with paradise, and cuts Therapy instead of Study, probably because he needs the blue discard to work, since his 13 lands can produce U...
Also, 4 Ichorids... is that necessary?

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4 Ichorid seems excessive, but he is running 3 Thugs which is 1-2 more than I usually run. You'll see 4 Ichorid in Vintage because it's a free creature against Workshop decks, but it's pretty unusual in Legacy Dredge. I don't particularly like it because they end up eating your black dredgers too soon (or else just sit in the yard). If I've got Ichorid in the yard, I want him coming out every turn. But what do I know, I didn't Top8 a SCG event with the deck ;)

I wouldnt overestimate dredge in general atm and to be honest, the last SCG top16 is maybe the most meaningless I've seen in a long time. IMO it just shows up that all kind of rather unusual decks can perform pretty well due to the fact that a lot of people do play those non-standard decks and that it is really easy for those to sneak through unprepared opponents and more important, sideboards.
When you cant hate dredge (and even if you can, but with not enough cards) you simply loose against experienced players and looking at the boards of famous players like bertoncini, many dont care much about the opposing graveyard AT ALL. Cephalid Breakfast made easily top 8 which is just nuked by GY-hate, plus 3 dredge decks and this has a reason, just sayin'.
As long as the big variety of the meta continues and it isnt clear against which deck to prepare for and build a solid sb, its maybe just the best time for having success with Dredge. I am aware that Dredge is quite powerful, thats the reason I play it by myself here and there on tourneys, but at least when more players recognize that a lot of decks just go completely bonkers without the right hate (like Dredge and also Affinity), there will be more answers and more players who do know how to rip apart the opposing deck quite effective.
To make that clear, I am a huge fan of the way legacy is going right now, but just looking at Top 16 doesnt imply that all the decks you see really "deserve" their place there outside this particular event. The best example might be the 8th round where Painted Stone won against UG-Madness, jeez, did anyone saw that? I still cant believe that he lost that and Painted Stone took it down in the end, just my 2 cents.
Greetings!
PS: That new card which was presented by wizards from New Phyrexia (I would have liked Mirrodin Pure a lot more) looks decent as a DR target, doesnt it?

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Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher

PS: That new card which was presented by wizards from New Phyrexia (I would have liked Mirrodin Pure a lot more) looks decent as a DR target, doesnt it?

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I haven't seen it, could you link or at least tell those of us who have been unable to look it up at work what said card is?

Since I am a complete computer noob and have no clue about showing pics here, I just describe it:

5WW

Legendary Creature - ???

Other creatures you control get +2/+2.
Creatures your opponent controls get -2/-2.

5/7




Dunno the creature type and name, p/t should be correct.

Not as good as FKZ since it doesn't give haste. And that's really the only slot it fits in. The other DR targets have utility (blow stuff up, gain life, lockout, etc.) that Elesh Norn doesn't quite have. -2/-2 doesn't really do much against most of Legacy when compared to our other options, and if it does kill some of their dudes -- there go our Bridges.

I'm with you, though -- one of the fun things about each new set for a Drege player is looking for new DR targets :)

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

Anyway, 3 Dredge in SCG LA T16. Voltron, time to Sleeve up that foil dredge deck. I'm gonna do the same too. :)

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Wouldn't you actually say that sleeving up Dredge after a top 16 with 5 graveyard combo decks is a bad idea? I think I would... its pretty likely that people will have more hate for the next couple events.

Anyway, I'm glad the deck did well; I've always thought it was better than the 40% win percentage it kept posting. I ran graveyard hate in my Elves deck last weekend in anticipation of Dredge.

Still, there are some weird design decisions in a few of those lists. Some have too few lands, and Bloodghast just seems worse to me than Ichorid most of the time in Legacy, but I suppose it depends on the make-up of the metagame to some extent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher

Since I am a complete computer noob and have no clue about showing pics here, I just describe it:

5WW

Legendary Creature - ???

Other creatures you control get +2/+2.
Creatures your opponent controls get -2/-2.

5/7




Dunno the creature type and name, p/t should be correct.

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That's not bad, it's like Crovax on steroids but it effects all your creatures instead of white/non-white. There's the obvious "it kills our bridges" argument but if you're reanimating that thing, you should be at a point that your bridges don't matter. At what point though are we going to want this? I'm seeing the same problem with this guy that I see with Massacre Wurm... they both clear the way (Wurm depending on the match might win you the game outright from time to time) but assuming this is in the board.. are either of these any better than just reanimating FKZ with a horde of zombies and swinging for lethal?

Not trying to be "that guy"... it just seems to me like FKZ gets you there this turn, while Wurm and this guy set you up for next turn.

Also- sniped by a guy above me, but i'm going to finish this post anyways.

I didnt ment to play it as a dread return target in the maindeck, which is just a complete overkill IMO.
As said before, I play Massacre Wurm atm and I am pretty happy with it in the sb and think now about replacing it with Elesh Norn because it is just amazing in the MU where Massacre Wurm comes in. Shutting your opponent entirely off of creatures while pushing the remaining guys and Ichorids/Narcomoebas is huge against Goblins, Merfolk, Elves! and all kind of decks with just bananas (D&T, Faeries) and is just GG while playing the Mirror because this should be a devastating boardcontrol.
If it is necessary in your list is part of your decision, playing Firestorms is fine as well IMO but I really like DR boards.

Well, I guess that's my sticking point. I play no maindeck return targets and I only play 2 DR targets in my board (Zealot and Chosen).

I played against an AggroElves match this past weekend (25 people, 4-1, cut to top 4 and split) and in the games against elves, not once did I wish I had a Wurm to sweep his board... but he also had enough lords that I don't think the Wurm would have got there. He smoked me game 1 as I had terrible dredges, game 2 I blew my firestorm too early (misplay on my part) and ended up having to reuse my ichorids and therapies every turn to make blockers to survive his alpha at 4 life. I had chosen in my yard but needed 1 narco off the next dredge to DR it.. my dredge flpped the narco, zealot, and my 4th bridge. Game. My 3rd game I kept a loose hand of 2 lands, 3 dredgers, firestorm, breakthrough. I say loose because I had no permanent discard outlet, but i figured the firestorm should be enough and breakthrough would get me there... The game went like this:

Him: Forest, Elf go.
me: Rip Pimp. Land, Pimp, Go.
him: land, 3/3 deathtoucher, go
me: eot discard GGT, dredge 2 bridges, troll, narco, narco, DR. Pitch my dredgers, cast breakthrough, and my first dredge flipped over another bridge, narco, and FKZ. GG turn 2.

To be fair, I haven't had to play goblins in a while, so I could see the merits of Norn or the Wurm in that matchup, but it was very unpopular in my meta for a while and is just now starting to be prevelant again. I'll give both cards a fewplay tests and see how I like it out of the board, I just don't see how it's not better to get the FKZ and, as above, just win.