[Deck] Elves Combo

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Alternative:

-2 Green Sun's Zenith
-1 Emrakul
-1 Gaea's Cradle

+4 Living Wish

This is basically like running 4 Gaea's Cradle also which seems good. Plus you get Bojuka Bog, Karakas, random answers.

I'd also want to move Viridian Zealot off for Caller of the Claw, since it seems like there's a lot of reasonable situations where Summoner's Pact for Caller turns a game loss into a win.

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Pact for Caller only if you have a cradle, because you usually need elves to pay for pact...
3-4 wish + bojuka bog should be good enough answer for dredge...

What I like about the build with the 4 titania is that it abuses this card a lot for mana acceleration. Not sure if sacrificing 1 card (spirit guide) is worth it for playing titania in T1... But the basic gameplan to get titania/archdruid out and have tons of mana next turn with 7-8 untap effects + 4 glimpse, and with GSZ, Pact + regal overall 11 cards to go off...
The good thing of having 2 GSZ is that it also give access to protection (zealot)... I am thinking about a similar build with additional protection using eternal witness.

I like GSZ more than Genesis wave because if I have 8+ mana in T3 i rather GSZ for regal to go off the same turn instead of casting a wave for x = 5.

Probably going to Goldfish and playtest this one:
Creatures

3 Elvish Archdruid
3 Priest of Titania
3 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Zealot
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Eternal Witness
2 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Joraga Warcaller

Instants
4 Summoner's Pact

Legendary Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sorceries
4 Glimpse of Nature
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Basic Lands
5 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs

Legendary Lands
1 Gaea's Cradle

SB
1 Viridian Zealot
2 Krosan Grip
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
3 Null Rod
2 Choke
2 Fecundity

That list is light on lands and soft to ANT/TES, in my opinion.

Also, when you have 27 mana on turn 3, what are you going to get with GSZ for x=26 that's better than Genesis Wave for x=24?

Matt, doesn't he run the same number of lands as you, at least from your recent article?

I think if you have 27 mana on turn 3 you have won anyway, regardless of which spell you play, but I think GSZ is more useful when facing hate to tutor up viridian zealot or gaddock teeg, and get through a chalice/CB/spell snare, or just as an additional tutor to grab an archdruid/hertitage/sentinel and set up the win next turn when you don't have as much mana available.

He runs the *same* number of lands, but he's also using Cradle, which is not only vulnerable to Waste but leads to unkeepable hands. I'm in the Wish camp when it comes to Cradle.

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Originally Posted by voltron00x

That list is light on lands and soft to ANT/TES, in my opinion.

Also, when you have 27 mana on turn 3, what are you going to get with GSZ for x=26 that's better than Genesis Wave for x=24?

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True - in my local meta there is not a lot of combo.. sideboard would have to change.
If we wave we give our opponent 1 turn to act ...if i have 27 mana and GSZ for regal force to get a glimpse I win the same turn casting emrakul...

but as mulligan said.. its not about the obvious win's where it does not really matter... what if we have 10 mana in T3? GSZ for force or wave fox X = 7?
... and the utility of GSZ + witness/zealot/... can be helful in difficult matchups. Wave does not provide that..

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Originally Posted by bakofried

He runs the *same* number of lands, but he's also using Cradle, which is not only vulnerable to Waste but leads to unkeepable hands. I'm in the Wish camp when it comes to Cradle.

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k2thej plays 13 forests as well in his wish build and many people (including myself) tested with 13 forests successfully...
I am going to goldfish my list (70 games) to compare how it plays vs. the other lists I goldfished...

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Originally Posted by catmint

k2thej plays 13 forests as well in his wish build and many people (including myself) tested with 13 forests successfully...
I am going to goldfish my list (70 games) to compare how it plays vs. the other lists I goldfished...

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Don't those lists usually have more than 6 mana elves? I usually play the full 8 when I play 14 lands, with no Cradle.

Ya I play 13 forest/fetch but I have 7 mana elves.

So my list has 1 mana elve less but 1 cradle.. should be fine I guess...
With a quirion T1 I am also able to play titania/visionary t2

Ya the main thing is that the 13 non-cradle lands let you have enough keepable hands. Once you go lower it starts to become real shaky.

Here my goldfish results for the new list (again 71 games). Here the results compared with my old goldfishing:

K2's wish list:
T2: started combo: 14% finished successfully 40%
T3: started combo: 31% finished successfully 100%
T4: started combo: 35% finished successfully 100%
Mulligan: 15%

My black list with thoughtseize and diabolic intent
T2: started 6% finisehd successful 75%
T3: started 39% finished successful 64%
T4: started 35% finished successful 96%
Mulligan: 18%
In 25% before I started to combo I was able to play protection (thoughtseize)
I used diabolic intent 13% of the time to tutor for glimpse or an important elve.

My titania/GSZ list
T2: started 13% finished successful 67%
T3: started 46% finished successful 97%
T4: started 23% finished successful 94%
Mulligan: 10%

What I found is that if not able to combo of in T2 the best T2 play next to quirion is priest of titania to generate huge amout of mana t3. I'll probably change to 2 archdruids for 1 more priest (2/4 instead of 3/3).
Witness and GSZ disturb sometimes early combo but with a little mana they can be helfpuf (returning a pact or tutoring for wirewood or somethign useful). I also asked myself in some T3 situations if I would prefer to have a GSZ for force or to have a genesis wave. I have to admit there were ~3 ridicolous situations where I had tons of mana and drew 5+ cards with force, but did not get a glimpse. As mentioned earlier probably not relevant. :)

There were also 2 situaitons where I had such an aggro bomb turn 3 with 6+ 8/8+ elves, but this this games count as "not going off"...

I am going to playtest more and I am curious if witness/zealot pay off

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Originally Posted by catmint

Here my goldfish results for the new list (again 71 games). Here the results compared with my old goldfishing:

K2's wish list:
T2: started combo: 14% finished successfully 40%
T3: started combo: 31% finished successfully 100%
T4: started combo: 35% finished successfully 100%
Mulligan: 15%

My black list with thoughtseize and diabolic intent
T2: started 6% finisehd successful 75%
T3: started 39% finished successful 64%
T4: started 35% finished successful 96%
Mulligan: 18%
In 25% before I started to combo I was able to play protection (thoughtseize)
I used diabolic intent 13% of the time to tutor for glimpse or an important elve.

My titania/GSZ list
T2: started 13% finished successful 67%
T3: started 46% finished successful 97%
T4: started 23% finished successful 94%
Mulligan: 10%

What I found is that if not able to combo of in T2 the best T2 play next to quirion is priest of titania to generate huge amout of mana t3. I'll probably change to 2 archdruids for 1 more priest (2/4 instead of 3/3).
Witness and GSZ disturb sometimes early combo but with a little mana they can be helfpuf (returning a pact or tutoring for wirewood or somethign useful). I also asked myself in some T3 situations if I would prefer to have a GSZ for pact or to have a genesis wave. I have to admit there were ~3 ridicolous situations where I had tons of mana and drew 5+ cards with force, but did not get a glimpse. As mentioned earlier probably not relevant. :)

There were also 2 situaitons where I had such an aggro bomb turn 3 with 6+ 8/8+ elves, but this this games count as "not going off"...

I am going to playtest more and I am curious if witness/zealot pay off

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If you cut to two archdruids how is your aggro plan?

I'm wondering how this plays against and through disruption a la Deadguy Ale. Stoneforge for Jitte, Hymn, Sculler, and Seize all MDed. Do you just try and abuse Visionary+Symbiote as much as you can?

There are many other disruption pieces we have to worry more as the one you mentioned bakofried...

@k2: concerning aggro plan. Have to test if 1 warcaller + 2 archdruids (+ GSZ/pact tutors) is enough for an alternative aggro plan.
..i just like to test a lot of differnt options...

I'm very confused, catmint. Are you saying those cards are the least of our troubles, or what? Please explain.

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Originally Posted by bakofried

I'm very confused, catmint. Are you saying those cards are the least of our troubles, or what? Please explain.

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I would not say the least of our troubles, but there are certain things that hurt us more.
Jitte is ugly, but if we combo off t3-4 it is too slow...
The early common disruption that hurts us much more is effective removal & countermagic in T1-3 (bolt, swords, demise, inquision, fire-ice, daze, FoW) as well as bombs like EE and Chalice...

Do you guys have some experience with reanimator?
I feel we have a very bad matchup since they are fast in getting iona in and have a disruption package with duress & FoW that can stop us effectively...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by catmint

I would not say the least of our troubles, but there are certain things that hurt us more.
Jitte is ugly, but if we combo off t3-4 it is too slow...
The early common disruption that hurts us much more is effective removal & countermagic in T1-3 (bolt, swords, demise, inquision, fire-ice, daze, FoW) as well as bombs like EE and Chalice...

Do you guys have some experience with reanimator?
I feel we have a very bad matchup since they are fast in getting iona in and have a disruption package with duress & FoW that can stop us effectively...

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Ya I haven't played reanimator that much, but when dredge used to be heavy on dred-returning iona that sucked. Wishing in Bojuka bog is great against dredge, but we need an instant speed GY removal spell to combat renimator. I think it is not common enough of a deck to warrent a spot in the board though. We still have an ok shot at racing them, and we need answers to countermagic (shusher/leyline) and answers to sweepers (VV/Buried Alive, fecundity, caller) more.

Also GSZ for Witness having a Glimpse or Pact is simply marvellous, altought with one Glimpse is enough, having the second allow us to play more comfortable against a FoW or simply reach best the goldfish.

can anyone post a GSZ version, ive been playing the genesis wave list but want to look at other options to see what works the best

I was testing a version with 4 GSZ recently and an interesting situation occured. I was comboing off, and ended up with Emrakul being on the bottom 3 cards, with 2 active Glimpses. In order to draw the Emrakul without decking myself, I used GSZ for 0 to shuffle them back in and safely draw the required amount of cards, then cast Emrakul, then cast GSZ again to shuffle back in to prevent decking (again).

It's a small trick, but a definite improvement over previous incarnations of the Emrakul style kill. I could see running 2 GSZ in a normal build now for this reason alone. Also, being able to tutor up Wirewood Symbiote is just gravy too, even if you don't draw cards off it directly.