You have to cut something to make room, I guess. I for instance have taken out Hymns.
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You have to cut something to make room, I guess. I for instance have taken out Hymns.
Vindicate under performs in the current meta. It was good when CB was popular because of the lack of 3 drops in that deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
It's too slow against the aggro decks and does nothing against combo. GSZ allows you to run pridemage for those problem cards like moat/ensnaring bridge/etc. Stronghold lets you recurr him if they run moat + thopter foundary etc. GSZ also gets around CB so vindicate isn't as needed.
Gerrard's verdict gets cut because Teeg is better against combo by a long shot and keeps you from getting blown out by top decks.
The mana denial game plan is strong but isn't as strong as running 7 knights. that lets you get wasteland fetching online more consistently.
No vindicate hurts when fighting jace but not that many decks run him.
You can have it all if you play my list.
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
4 Scrubland
3 Bayou
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Top
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
-Matt
If you're playing GSZ over Vindicate, you can (and should) play Qasali Pridemage. That gives you outs/answers to most non-creature permanents. Gaddock Teeg is also a good pre-emptive answer to a lot of the permanents/spells you would want to deal with as well. GSZ also opens you up to tutorable sideboard slots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
I don't think it's a bad idea to take out Hymns and Verdicts for GSZ, a Teeg, and a Pridemage. With GSZ, Green becomes a much bigger focus color than Black.
I would completely disagree that Vindicate is bad against combo though. Our goal against combo is to stall them as much as possible until we can win. We can't outright race them and discard alone won't always work, especially against High Tide. Vindicating/Wastelanding lands can put combo out of the game.
I am aware of this, but at the same time, why are you running GSZ + 1-of Pridemage when you can just run Vindicate? Also, I would argue that the current E Tutor SB plan is much stronger and versatile than a GSZ SB plan as many of the specific hate cards you'd bring in for matchups just so happen to be artifacts or enchantments while GSZ gives you... Teeg?Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
It seems to me you're putting a lot of eggs in one basket.Quote:
Originally Posted by testing32
Also there are plenty of other (non enchantment) threats you would want to get rid of, I wouldn't dismiss Vindicate that 'easily'.
edit: I'm a bit slow: I fully agree with arsenal.
You gain md teeg whose value can't be understated. You also gain dryad arbor. You still run the E Tutor board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Edit: That is just the flexability. You also get GSZ itself which usually turns into knights.
What match up do you think will suffer by dropping vindicate for GSZ? I can't think of one.
I haven't seen many (if any) Rock lists running Dryad Arbor. Lots of Bant lists do, but that's because they also play Natural Order which we do not. Outside of being able to have 3 mana on turn 2, what does Arbor do for you? Carry a Jitte (if your list runs Jitte)? That still doesn't seem stronger than Vindicate.
Nice build Matt. Good threat desity with +2 GSZ and full creature suite. superb utility with the +2 Pridemages (GSZable) plus the base deck windicates/swords to winshares. Still retaining the full CA package to boot!Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Personally i play in a kinds slow controlish meta so i may only run 1 jette (+1 cruciable) and -1 swamp +1 stronghold but overall i like the build. Going to give it a try. Do u miss not having dimonds? i find them awsome in the first 10 cards, but useless after turn 4.
IMO things like teeg (which impact 50% of the games per random matching) belong in the sideboard as it does not advance our game plan.
Also... Vindicate kills Jace!! DIE JACE DIE!!
It's not like anyone is saying that Dryad Arbor is better than Vindicate. What we're saying is that the flexibility of GSZ is as good or better than Vindicate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
It can act as a surprise blocker (fetch it) Personally I'm not sure if that's enough reason to run it in the Rock but I put in in my list for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
edit: I'm so slowwww
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I can't believe I just now discovered this site. This is some amazing discussion on a deck that I am very much enjoying playing right now. This list seems like the perfect balance between the GSZ and traditional builds. It will hurt to cut the Mox Diamonds (I just LOVE the FtV:R art) but I think this is a great compromise. This also looks like the exact type of sideboard strategy I have had in mind. I'll be bringing a list very similar to this to a tournament on Saturday. I'll post back with results at some point as well.
But you're not gaining any flexibility whatsoever (replacing Vindicate with Pridemage =/= flexibility), you're merely increasing your threat density as GSZ will often times be used as KotR/Goyf #5-6. Junk's silver-bullet toolbox creatures are rather unimpressive as the main selling point will be Teeg, and he's only relevant in a handful of matchups. I'm all for increasing threat density in a deck that runs 12 creatures, but not at the expense of cutting Vindicate.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
Getting a Pridemage when you need a Vindicate and a Knight when you need a beater = flexibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
What are you Vindicating that you can't live without?
Have fun Pridemaging a Jace or Humility or opponent's land when you have him on the ropes w/ Wasteland. Also, increasing threat density =/= flexibility.
Without Vindicate, you're cold to Moat, Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, Jace, etc. Of course you can attack Jace, but sometimes you really can't if they've got huge bombs like CounterTop Thopter or a huge whack of creatures.
I would, however, not have 4 Vindicates, because they're slow. Sometimes, one-for-ones just aren't good enough, and Kira really screws you over. My point is, with 2 Pridemages and 3 Vindicates, you have plenty of answers to artifacts and enchantments and you have outs to Humility.
Regarding Mox/Birds/Arbor, I've had the Birds/Dryad argument be relevant twice out of a hundred or so games. At times, I could have one with one more mana, but most of the time, it's not relevant. I could see going down one Swamp for an Arbor just to have the option, or cut a Pridemage for a Birds, but I've found it more useful to have the utility. Once again, I'm running an extra land in the place of Mox Diamond, so I've been pretty consistent, even through Wasteland. Not as explosive, but consistent.
@ Cannonist
I tried out the board with Cannonist, and it's an absolute house against Enchantress, but mostly Storm combo. Mixing discard, Teegs, E. Tutors, and the ability to find Cannonist was amazing post-board. At times, you do get freakin' owned by continued Silence then they combo, but it happens. You're not blue, so you can't counter spells, and today I Wasted, Hymned, Thoughtseized, and then he topdecked Ad Nauseum. It happens.
@ Runed Halo
In theory, this seems like a good call since I don't have slots for Tariff, and I'd have to draw them naturally. It owns Progenitus until they get Grip or Qasali, helps against Combo, they can't Grindstone you, it can protect against opposing Hymns or Burn spells, and can help beat out Jace or Tezzeret. I'm running it as a one-of, and it seems fine.
@ Teeg in the board
Teeg in the board helped, especially with GSZ, against Combo and Dredge. Having them not be able to AN or Dread Return was huge. Plus, he also shuts off opposing GSZ, EE, Jace, Natural Order (which I expect to be big at the GP), Wrath of God, Tezzeret, Moat, Humility, Smokestack, Mindslaver, etc. I won 90% of my postboard matches against Dredge by doing the following:
+3 E tutor
+2 Deed
+1 Crypt
+1 Nihil Spellbomb
+2 Gaddock Teeg
+1 Bojuka Bog
-4 Hymn to Tourach
-2 Jitte
-3 Vindicate
-1 Dark Confidant
My opponent got it so hard most of the time. I died to a turn 2 Iona, though. One more turn would have allowed me to GSZ for Teeg :(
Thus far, my board is as follows:
2 Engineered Plague
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Runed Halo
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Gaddock Teeg
I've had great success with this board. It has a little bit of everything against everyone, not counting Mono-Red burn.
Thoughts?
-Matt
@ sdematt
Your list on page 60 adds up to 61 cards, unless I am doing something wrong. The odd card out seems to be the 1x Pernicious Deed, and I don't think I would feel very comfortable without at least 1 in the main deck. Everything else about the list seems great.
What are your thoughts on Choke out of the board? I am thinking of packing 2 in the SB tomorrow. It seems like there will be A LOT of Merfolk running around, and it has uses against plenty of other decks as well.
You're correct, the list is 61.
Choke out of the board could be interesting if you're expecting a bunch of Merfolk. At that point, I'd also run more Needles for Vial to completely lock them out.
Maybe the changes to my board for you:
-1 Deed
-1 Runed Halo
-1 Cannonist
+2 Choke
+1 Needle
-Matt
Matt, have you ever felt that your list might not support KOTR enough with only 8 fetchlands and 3 wasteland? Im wonder about that since im tinkering on a list with the same configuration.