Just a quick question. I've seen some people do this, but I never understood why... When is it correct to matron for a matron? It seems like it would only be good for an alpha strike with piledrivers?
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Just a quick question. I've seen some people do this, but I never understood why... When is it correct to matron for a matron? It seems like it would only be good for an alpha strike with piledrivers?
I have been testing with MM as well, and tried it at a tournament. I am not sold.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBopper
The only time when it really seems to have a major positive effect is turn 1/2. And half the time, unless it is countering an opposing MM, it might as well have been a bolt or tarfire. The number of hands where I got a lackey or vial + 1 or 2 more threats + at least 1 red source + MM was not very high.
Past the first few turns, I almost always end up wishing it were something more flexible, as I stared at a stoneforge, bob, knight, gofy, what have you.
The other problem I have with it is that it "turns on" your opponent's MMs well into the midgame. While MM is really good against goblins, the downside is that after the opening moves, the opponent has very little of value to spend their remaining MMs on. You gain virtual card advantage every time they topdeck a MM. However, if they can bank them to counter your MMs on their swords/bolts/lavamancers etc, then they remain useful throughout.
We have so few flex slots, that I really think they need to be more "flexible" than MM. This is my initial impression after playing the card.
I also may do this when I am trying to chump a knight or a gofy for several turns, assuming I'm not running MWM and my mana is too constrained to go for the more optimal Ringleader into some other chump.Quote:
Originally Posted by clashed
Thank you! I'll try and answer as much as I possibly can.Quote:
Originally Posted by rupus
Chrome Mox
Very keen on keeping it at 2 because 1 is too few (won't see it enough) and 3/4 are way too many - I do not ever want to see multiples in my hand. Sure a first turn Warchief sounds awesome but with the amount of removal and counters nowadays, it'd be a huge risk removing two red goblin cards just to cheat him in with multiple moxes.
Stingscourger
I’d like to keep it at 2 for now as it helps clear the way for the early Lackey/Instigator. It also allows for a 2v1 in combat when I vial him in which is huge as you’ve seen in my match against Merfolk. Sure, you can argue that I run Warren Weirding in place of this and could be more useful as it actually gets rid of your opponent’s creature instead of bouncing it to your hand. That may be true, but for now I enjoy the extra body and with the amount of mishra’s factories I’ve seen in decks lately, it’s hard to use Weirding for the creature you intended to use it on. In the past, with the combination of wastelands I’ve bounced the Germ that equips Batterskull with Sting and my opponent is unable to re-equip it for quite some time, allowing me to go for an all out strike.
Ancient Grudge
It’s versatility vs. efficiency. For this tournament, I chose versatility as my meta is unpredictable and quite random at times. Last month’s legacy, I faced 3 Stoneforge Landstill decks with Batterskull and beat out each of them with Krosan Grips. This month, I faced no such decks.
I would seriously consider using Ancient Grudges instead for any larger tournaments. Granted, I don’t discount the fact that sometimes at large tournaments i.e. SCG Open is where new deck ideas come about but at the top of my mind there aren’t any Enchantments that currently scare me except for the ones in Enchantress and Hive Mind (but it’s not like you can stop it when the player retains priority after casting it anyways).
Cabal Therapy
Reason why I’ve stepped away from Therapy in the past was because of my inability to name the right cards at the right moments. Maybe we should create a section of top 3-5 cards to name when playing 1) TES 2) Hive Mind 3) Spiral Tide etc. I’ve had more luck casting Chalice at 0 or 1 and slowing my opponent that way and with the combination of wasteland, I really set him back and allows my goblins to creep in for the kill.
Black Splash
Primarily I splashed for Perish and Warren Weirding in the past but I’ve seen Scatman and other fine users on this thread testing out Wort, Cabal Therapy, etc and they seem to be working out great for them. I won’t deny that hand destruction and recurring your goblins is appealing so I may give it a test run or two after I try the misstep version. After so much discussion has been propelled by Jrw and Gobolord, et al I owe it to myself to give it a try.
Ports
I miss them a whole lot especially since they’re foil signed ports. I miss tapping out your opponents’ lands while I vial in stuff which really swings the tempo to my favor. But I do enjoy landing an instigator turn 1 or turn 2 even more. It really brings your opponent’s moral down when all they see is turn 1 Lackey, Vial, or Mox + Instigator (or just Instigator on turn 2) Or if you’ve countered one, another taking its place on turn 2.
Don’t get me wrong, this is just based on the observations I’ve had in the previous two tournaments. I still have to further test the decklist against various other match ups. But for now things are looking up as the deck is performing.
Thank you for reading it. I thought (and still do) that it wasn’t worth reporting as it’s a rather small tournament ~ 20 people. I need to get around joining bigger ones to see significant results.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
I try not to mulligan if I have a good hand ~ 2-3 lands with a 1 drop or even 2 drops. I’ve been lucky if I didn’t have it in the opening hand, I’d eventually draw into a Lackey, Vial, or instigator early.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hof
I agree on the Chrome Mox, sometimes it’s really painful to remove key goblins. I’ve removed Stingscourgers, Piledrivers, and Gempalms most of the time. I believe dropping a turn 1 Instigator is just that important and game changing.
Thanks! I agree with all your points. I will try dropping the Grips for the Ancient Grudges. However, I will stay away from Ports and Missteps because I still want to hang onto the Instigator version a bit longer because it’s just so much fun running a f’load of goblins + 8 Lackey effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
I will consider the argument about Thorn. I know in the past, we ruled it out as it was too slow against Storm but with the shift in meta and having a card like mental misstep it makes Thorn playable again.
what would you add when playing against a white weenie? (i guess i dont hav to mention they got a few stupid knights often)
Funny, but this worked for me - Chalice of the Void set at 2. Countered all my opponents' knights, Serra Avengers, Disenchant etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudshade
Anarchy works.. you can side it in against Progenitus and Enchantress (Moat, Solitary Confinement, Angels) as well.
If you play with the full set of 4 Instigators, and if your meta is heavy on White Weenie, GW Maverick, and/or Elves, I highly recommend 2 Flash of Defiance in the sideboard. I have tested it, and it is absolutely devastating against a deck that tries to block most of your goblins rather than counter or remove them.
I had a pretty horrible night of Magic.
R1 Monoblack
G1- I'm on the draw. I have an Aether Vial in hand. T1 it gets hit by Inquisition of Kozilek. T2 I get Hymned. Then he plays nighthawk, gatekeeper, and Phyrexian Obliterator. Woof.
G2- I play T1 Vial. He plays T1 Dark Ritual into E Plague. I didn't have a Mental Misstep and now only run 1 Chieftain, so once he Goes for the Throat of the Chieftain I'm basically out of the game.
R2
G1- I lose the roll again. My Vial gets Misstepped. I need to Waste an Inkmoth Nexus so I wind up short on mana, and lose to a Berserked Infecter.
G2- My Lackey gets Misstepped. I have never had the Misstep when I need it today. Then I start playing really awfully and throw the game away when I Matron up a Gempalm instead of a Stingscourger to try and stop a regenerating Infecter. Game.
0-2 and I drop.
Well, I lost both dice rolls and my opponents had answers to my T1 play every game. I never had a Misstep to force my 1-drop through. I tended to have hands filled with 3 and 4cc cards. I think I need to re-evaluate my opening hands... Hard to say.
Well, sad to hear that...
I thought of a build to combine most of the reacent stated argument:
People are playing 3-4 Ports, so if you take a build with 3 Ports and replace a mountain for a chrome mox, it's pretty similar, isn't it? Also people are playing 22-23 lands, so how about playing 21 lands AND 2 chrome mox. This leaves us at 11 flex spots. Since we want exploisve starts with chrome mox, I put 4 Instigators in there and filled it up with removal, like Tarfire to adust to current meta. This is the list:
//lands(21):
14x Mountain
4x Wasteland
3x Port
//core (26)
//flex (11):
4 WInstigator
3 Gempalm
1 Stinger
2 Tarfire
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
Thoughts??? Does it make sense at all to combine aggro and control again in such a build?
I'm going to test it-didn't have the time so far.
krosan grip, ancient grudge or tin street?
Asking a question without context, oh boy!Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudshade
This has been debated several times already, and recently. Read the thread.
lol, dont get me wrong - i read through the whole thread. still, i saw no "conclusion" there. if id play against a deck full of artifacts id chose ancient grudge over the grip, simply because it gives me the chance to destroy twice. is tin street still relevant then, cause he seems the one card with the fewest power to me. the q is should i add one of those cards to the main deck at all or sb em? (we dont see many decks without artifacts anyhow) if its about nasty enchantments is grip the only/ the best option?
Currently, I would recommend playing RG Goblins with 2 Tin Street Hooligans in the maindeck and 2 Ancient Grudges in the sideboard. Together with 4 Gempalm Incinerator this gives you a big strategic advantage against the decks packing Stoneforge.
Mental Misstep is situationally a very good card in Legacy but can also be situationally very bad. If you play Brainstorm and Force of Will, Mental Misstep is never dead. Goblins runs neither Brainstorm nor Force of Will, as a result I found Misstep to be a dead draw too often. I could see a case being made for sideboarding the card, specifically because it would seem very good against Zoo. Countering their Wild Nacatl or Grim Lavamancer while landing a first turn Vial or Lackey is enough of a tempo swing to drag the game into the lategame where you have the advantage. Against any of the blue decks, I'd personally rather stay away from Mental Misstep.
mental misstep itself is brilliant, i just tend to get it whenever i dont need it (late) - so not an option for me there! :D
You'll never see a conclusion. Sideboard is about metagame knowledge and playstyle. If you're worried about Artifacts, just run 2 Tin Street Hooligan MD and 2+ Ancient Grudge in sideboard. If you're worried about Enchantments, just run 3+ Krosan Grip or a powerful sweeper like Back to Nature. If you're metagame is full of Artifacts AND Enchantments, just throw away your pyrokinesis/gy hate, and pack lots of Artifact and Enchantment hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudshade
It's just about thinking and testing, and shouldn't really be asked. Just play them all and get your own conclusions.
After my horrible 0-2 performance on Thursday I was apprehensive for this month's big 1.5 tourny. I sleeved up the following-
Maindeck:
Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
Creatures
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin-Street Hooligan
Tribal Sorcerys
2 Warren Weirding
Instants
4 Mental Misstep
Basic Lands
5 Mountain
Lands
1 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Rishadan Port
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Krosan Grip
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Perish
R1 - Bant
G1 I drew all 4 Vials and didn't have much to play off them.
G2&3 I got there.
1-0
R2- Zoo
G1- I MMd his T1 Steppe Lynx. He Pathed my Lackey, and I rode out the tempo to win the game.
G2- I MMd his T1 play again. I then Pyroed his Nacatl as he tried to equip a Jitte to it. I won soon thereafter.
2-0
R3- UGB Eldrazi Polymorph
G1- He was playing a brew where he'd play Awakening Zones and Khalni Garden to clog the board, then cast a Polymorph into the only creature in his deck, Emrakul, all backed up by a BU disruption package. He went first. He brainstormed, I MMd, he MMd back, so I cast a third MM. It stuck. Then I landed a Vial and won from there out.
G2- He casts 3 Engineered Plagues. I scoop.
G3- He plays a Plague but I got the K Grip. He then Polymorphs into Emrakul, but I've got the Stingscourger for that too, and I win.
3-0
R4- UR Sneak Attack
G1- I Matron up a Stingscourger early in the game since I've scouted between rounds and i've seen the Sneak Attack and Emrakul. I believe he taps out to cast Seething Song, then Sneak Attack, and with the last mana puts the Emrakul into play, but I bounce it before combat because I've been sitting on a Vial set at 2 with a Stingscourger in hand. I feel kinda like a dick for scouting and therefor going straight to an out with the Matron, but I'm over it.
G2- This time he gets the Sneak Attack and Emrakul, but I've got the Singer again and a Vial set at 2. I've developed my board and have a SeigeGang and Lackey and Warchief out. He has plenty of mana, so I can't prevent an Emrakul annihilator trigger because he can just replay Emrakul with Sneak Attack then declare attacks. However, i have enough creatures and lands I can survive an Emrakul attack and kill him in two turns (even after the Annihilator). He realizes this, and casts Intuition mainphase. He picks out 2 Firespout and a Progenitus. If I give him the Firespout he'll kill all my creatures, then Sneak in Emrakul and Annihilate me down to 2 permanents. But, if I give him Progenitus I'll have to bounce Emrakul, sac 6 permanents, and take another Emrakul attack the following turn and lose. So I give him the Firespout. He Firespouts my gobos away, then attacks with Emrakul. i take 15, sac all my lands and 1 Aether Vial, but I still ahve 2 Vials at 2 and 3. I topdeck a Warchief, vial it in, then kill the next turn with Warcheif and a Vialed in Stingscourger.
4-0
Draw
4-0-1
Top 8
UR Sneak Attack rematch.
G1 He peters out and isn't able to get a creature to Sneak in. I win.
G2- I overextend, so he Firespouts the board away. Then he kills me with Progenitus.
G3- It's a crazy back and forth. He gets me with a Progenitus, but I've gotten him down to 12. I topdeck a Chalice of the Void and his hand is empty, so I play it for 1 to keep him from cantriping. But he topdecks the winning Emrakul one turn before I kill him.
I never drew a MM G2 or 3 of this match, and it really hurt my ability to protect my Lackeys or disrupt his digging.
So I miss out on a top4 split, but I had a good time nonetheless.
What I would change-
In my sideboard I would have swapped out Leyline of the Void for Extirpate/Surgical Extraction. This would have given me more interactions against the Sneak Attack deck because I could screw up his Intuition tutors and Emrakul graveyard triggers. That would have been extremely helpful.
I wish I had brought Pithing Needle instead of Mindbreak Trap.
What I would do the same-
4 Mental Misstep were awesome. Basically every time I didn't have one I wished I did. They were phenomenal.
Very interesting. Can I safely say you won the match against Zoo because of MM? I always considered Zoo to be a bad matchup but I think with 4 Missteps coming out of the board (I still don't think I would like to play them maindeck) the matchup should be a lot better.
Zoo was always tricky, but winnable. Now that we have MM the ZOO MU gets better. If you have LAckey and MM and are on the play, you just win. Zoo can't come back from that loss of tempo. If you're on the draw stopping Zoo's Nacatl stops Zoo's aggro advantage dead. And it gives your Vials time to get cooking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis
Try MM maindeck. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.
Just got back from Australian Nationals there were legacy events on 2 days, Day 1 I had a dream run and finished 3rd day 2 I crashed and burned (0-3 drop)
Here is the list I played
Core:
4 Aether vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
Flex slots:
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Warren instigator
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Mental Misstep
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Taiga
6 Fetches
5 Mountains
Sideboard:
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Tin Street Hooligan
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Krosan Grip
Day 1 (Friday)
Round 1 Bye (woot)
Round 2 Mono White - Death and Taxes (2-0)
Game 1: Turn 1 lackey went unanswered and that was enough to get me there
Game 2: I sided in Pyrokinesis which caught my opponent off guard and Tin street Hooligan popped a jitte, the turning point was when I waited for his mother of runes to tap (to protect a jotun grunts I think) then hitting it + a Sera Avenger with a pyrokinesis
Round 3 UBG Landstill (0-2): This guy was the eventual winner so not to upset to loose to him.
Game 1: This game went very, very long was very back and forward game, one of those absolutely soul crushing games that just take so much out of you when you loose, I killed 3 jaces by the end of it, the key moment were 2 big pernicious deeds my opponent got off, both times took out an aether vial along with a lot of other stuff (had to over commit to take out Jace). Both times the deeds went off I was ahead on board, in the end he was able to beat me down with factory after my last ringleader hit 3 lands and a misstep :(
Game 2: By the time this game started there was something like 5 minutes left in the round, I had k-grips in board which gave me a bit of an answer to deed, I kept a sketchy hand (something like aether vial, ringleader, warchief, k-grip, 3 land), the vial obviously got forced and a turn 2 standstill after turn 1 factory put me in huge trouble.
Mental misstep was useless in this match, in the death and taxes match up it hit all sorts of things like mother of runes, swords etc, this landstill list seemed pretty meta-gamed against misstep all of its removal were 2 drop spells, stuff like diabolic edict, go for the throat and smother, in fact I don't think he played any one drops at all.
Round 4 Dredge (2-0):
Not sure if my opponent misplayed or was just very unlucky
Game 1: Opponent Mulliganed to 4 game 1 and I missteped his turn 1 putrid imp he scooped shortly after
Game 2: Opponent Mulligans pretty savagely again, plays a turn 1 Breakthrough off a city of brass hits 3 bridge from bellows and 0 dredgers, I play a lackey which is only able to put a warchief into play, I have a rishadan port and we have a laugh as I repeatedly port his city of brass, forcing him to take 1 damage every upkeep, he scoops a few turns later when I cycle an incinerator killing my own lackey to remove the 3 bridges.
This was enough to put me into 3rd place on resistance and I won 12 M12 boosters (First place was my round 3 Landstill opponent, Second place was a painter stone list with imperial recruiter).
Day 2 Was a bigger tournament (6 rounds plus top 8, instead of 4).
Round 1: Hive mind (0-2)
Game 1: Turn 1 aether vial resolves my opponent plays island and passes the turn, I think he is playing merfolk, Turn 2 I tick up vial and play mountain pass turn, he plays city of traitors then show and tells hive mind, he shows me multiple pacts in his hand, we scoop and goto game 2.
Game 2: My opponent has a much slower hand, my turn 1 lackey gets missteped :( he plays a turn 2 grim monolith and digs with ponder/preordain for a few turns while I hit him with a warchief and some other irrelevent goblin, eventually he intuitions for 3 emrakul, I have a matron in my hand and fetch stinscourger off the show and tell. He has a force of will when I attempt to bounce emrakul
Opponent was a nice guy and we chattered a bit afterwards, he mentioned he was expecting chalice off the board so kept the slower emrakul hand.
Round 2 Merfolk (1-2)
Game 1: My deck does what it's supposed to got down an aether vial and multiple pile drivers and beat him to death
Game 2: Can't remember exactly what happened here he kept me off of any turn 1 play and got down multiple lords I died pretty quick.
Game 3: My deck completely failed me, First 3 hands were unkeepable (0 lands) Mull to 4 is pretty brutal opponent goes mutavault into standstill and I'm helpless.
Round 3 Burn (0-2)
Yeah in the 0-2 bracket and facing burn (did not know what his deck was at the time)
Game 1: I keep a slowish hand with turn 1 aether vial, opponents opening play is to suspend a rift bolt and I groan inside, things get worse from there when I find out he runs main deck searing blaze.
Game 2: I board in chalices, hoping to get down a chalice for 1 asap and blank half his deck, I keep an agressive hand (lackey, 2 piledrivers, warchief, ringleader) no chalices, really should have mulliganed. He chain lightnings my lackey, searing blazes the first pile driver a ring leader a few turns later hits 4 lands and I'm in big trouble.
I drop and go compete in lucky dipped sealed, I get a tournament pack of timespiral + Urza's Destiny + Urza's legacy boosters have a sick mono blue deck, with treachery, palinchron, frantic search, raven familiar, thieving magpie and a bunch of Bounce + draw spells and random fliers.
I learned the other day that Chalice of the Void doesn't work against Hive Mind. Chalice only counters spells when they're played. It doesn't counter copies. AKA- it doesn't stop the Hive Mind copy of a Pact that kills you.