Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RThomas-
Well done. A couple points to make:
--Was there a reason to throw in Spy when you had Dakmor Salvage in the deck? My choice would be Griselbrand, since it does just about the same thing with Salvage or Arbor in the deck. I don't know if you didn't have them available, but I think it would be a stronger choice. Unless your thinking was to bin a bunch of cards, dredge Salvage the next turn, and recur your Bloodghasts. Then I understand but Griselbrand feels much stronger.
--You might also consider Angel of Despair or Kederekt Leviathan in the AEthersnipe spot for the Show and Tell game since their utility is a bit wider, but this may also be card availability.
--I'm glad you found some good use out of Unmask; perhaps I'm not playing it properly, but I never liked having it in the second and third games. It works best when you delay a turn with Annex Chancellor and it looks like you took advantage of that.
It looks like a pretty good time to try this deck out if you're not seeing much of Leyline and Rest in Peace; I've seen either of those cards exactly once in a couple months of tournament play. We've already established that Deathrite Shaman is not a huge problem for the deck, since it can surely blow right through it, so it's good to see the deck performing well.
The story with spy was this: I only had one flayer, so I tossed in the spy while I was playtesting. I Dread Returned it a couple of times, but it rarely did anything significant. I came to the tournament fully intent on replacing it, but forgot. Flayer, Gristlebrand, Worldspine Wurm, even Dripping Dead would have been more useful. There was, indeed, conflict between salvage and the spy; I would rather have the ghasts in the main than spy.
Angel of Despair would be a better choice in the snipe slot. Kederekt Leviathan would be good against Staxx or Enchantress, I suppose, but I rarely see that around here. I think the ability to bounce one permanent and then attack with a bunch of tokens is preferable to a clean sweep at the moment.
Unmask and Chancellor are, as you surmise, BFFs, and I never boarded in Unmask without the Chancellor. If your opponent elects to draw, the duo pretty much mitigate any tempo loss, whether it be delaying your opponent or using unmask on yourself. Unmask was also good for clearing the way for a Dread Return against control/aggro control.
Several times during the tournament, my opponents (or passersby) remarked that their deck had significantly better game against traditional LED/looting dredge, and I believe it. Manaless is very consistent, and I think consistency can go a long way in the current environment. I will go ahead and advocate on the side of more dredgers, rather than fewer, however.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RThomas-
It looks like a pretty good time to try this deck out if you're not seeing much of Leyline and Rest in Peace; I've seen either of those cards exactly once in a couple months of tournament play. We've already established that Deathrite Shaman is not a huge problem for the deck, since it can surely blow right through it, so it's good to see the deck performing well.
I'm finding the same thing - because DRS is good enough to slow down a fair amount of graveyard decks, a lot of people seem to be devoting their side to anything but dredge.
Despite Rest in Peace being around (I've seen it every 2nd time I go out), I'm finding this deck in a fair position to beat face right now.
The best thing I'm finding is the deck has a lot of interactions that opponents just don't even know about, and few sideboard cards can shut down.
RThomas;
RE: Balustrade Spy
I'm still toying with it... I just cast put the deck down. I do miss Arbor, but damn - those foil Spy's are purty lookin :cool: ..and cheap!
I have been runnin 2 Flayers (if someone Extracts my Trolls) = you can burn them out for 27 damage from only 2 Dr's.
Troll gets extracted a lot I find, for some reason people still use extraction in the side like it matters against us! :eyebrow:
Have you considered running a 2nd one for the alternate win-con in your Spy version?
That said, it would probably come at the expense of a Blightsteel Colossus-type singleton. I have mine in the side, as I've rarely needed it. Thing is, if you can DR up a Spy without them having anything relevant on the board, what can they do to stop you winning outside of immediately extracting Dr's? They should have already played that out before you cast spy I would think.
Do you guys n gals running Spy find Blighty needed much against control decks?
Also, regarding Show and Tell, Reanimator, Hypergensis matchups, I've tested a few cards.
After quite a few games, I favour Kederekt Leviathan & ANgel of Despair.
Terastodon and Aethersnipe both have major drawbacks.
Levy protects your bridges and potentially boosts your hand up to 7, Levy can't touch lands, this might be relelvant for some of you, but I find it rarely is.
Angel can kill anything and can also be exiled for Icky's, Contagion, Unmask etc., but most of the time you'll be killing an artifact or enchantment with it, so killing your bridges isn't always relevant.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
slave
RE:
Balustrade Spy
I'm still toying with it... I just cast put the deck down. I do miss Arbor, but damn - those foil Spy's are purty lookin :cool:
..and cheap!
You really shouldn't be predicating your decisions regarding the mechanics and productivity of the deck because a card looks good foiled-out, just saying.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hollywood
You really shouldn't be predicating your decisions regarding the mechanics and productivity of the deck because a card looks good foiled-out, just saying.
Hyuk.
I know the Arbor version is better, and still my favoured version - but Spy has been fun workin with, and so far against aggro it allows us to combo out below 7 life. I think that's worth a thought.
Whats your whole take on this Hollywood?
Edit;
My list with Spy is currently the *Hollywood List*
-4 Annex, + 4 LED
-4 Arbor, +4 Probe.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Agree to Hollywood.
We should discuss the best cards to play. Even when Legacy is the "casual-type" Spy has its own deck already.
Played this weekend a frustrating 1/3. Loosing to paranoid ppl (4 Leylines, 4 Extirpates ) to Staxx (3sphere with a followed RiP) and to Ant.
Nothing much to discuss about. Vs the paranoid Deadguy-player i could have won if i had found some business in within 40 cards ... lol.
Aslong the Meta turns more into Combo im changing to Led-Dredge to keep up with the speed.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
grip
Agree to Hollywood.
We should discuss the best cards to play. Even when Legacy is the "casual-type" Spy has its own deck already.
Tough draw against so much hate.
RE: Best cards - there's no question what this thread is for.
I don't think anyone is arguing that Spy is stronger than the current Manaless tried and true version.
But it does have a few pro's and con's worth thinking about.
Generally experience will teach how effective a given card will be, although testing can prove/disprove it given time and slight adjustments to a given list.
The pro's and con's of Spy have been beaten to death already, so lets look at odds using (hypergeometric distribution)
Chances of drawing an Arbor in your starting 7 is ~34%
More than one Arbor = 6%
More than or equal to 1 is ~40%
No Arbor ~60%.
Now I don't know about you guys, but the math doesn't always back me up. I could shuffle and deal 7, and I doubt I'd get an Arbor 34% of the times, but this kind of math doesn't really allow for poor shuffling or cards getting clumped together etc etc.
Now lets pretend we're post board.
We've sided in a pair of Verdant Catacombs and a Forest, 4 Claims and 4 Reverent Silence.
Chances of drawing a mana source in your first grip ~42%.
None = 39%
More than 1 = 18%.
And what about if we MULLIGAN looking for a green source?
None = 45%
1 green source ~40%
More than 1 = 14%.
Answers in Reverent Silence & Nature's Claim, assuming you have all 8 in from the side;
None = 34%
1 ~42%
More than one ~23%.
MULLIGAN for an answer?
None = 41%
1 ~ 41%
More than one ~17%.
Now lets pretend you've sided in some Mindbreak Traps And Annex for Storm, and are willing to mull to grab one.
Opening grip has one or more = 65%
MULL to 6, 1 or more = 59%
MULL to 5, 1 or more = 52%
MULL to 4 (:tough:), = 44%.
Okay, that out of way, what developments have actually happened lately that's new to the deck?
The core hasn't changed, and I doubt it will.
Of the fringe cards - Annex is an oldie but a goodie. Unmask, Mindbreak Trap are cards well known about.
Another version of the deck uses Bloodghast & Dakmor Salvage.
The newest additions are Mr Grisel and Flayer as far as I can tell.
But since those newer Dr. targets have been added, there's not exactly been an avalanche of new thoughts or viable new cards for the deck.
This is why I've been testing Spy a bit, tryin to get the best out of it, and developing a side is a big part of that.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
I think that the only question before us is whether or not the ability to just kill the opponent outright is worth the stretch in consistency.
Against both Storm and High tide, the fact that I didn't need to use the attack step to win definitely gave me, in my opinion, a stronger game. No reanimating Griselbrand and having to win in the attack step, no dropping dryad arbors, etc.
Now, of course, most of the time in my one draw step, if I drew Spy, I would rather have had Arbor, so there's the dilemma.
Speaking strictly for myself, I was totally fine with the Spy version - since we have an equal chance of scooping to Leyline/RiP, I would rather board the removal package and keep the maindeck combo focused - the varied lines of attack against the various archetypes was what won me the game, in my opinion. But I'd like to hear what Hollywood has to say, since he's put in a ton of work on the archetype.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MrSoze
I think that the only question before us is whether or not the ability to just kill the opponent outright is worth the stretch in consistency.
Against both Storm and High tide, the fact that I didn't need to use the attack step to win definitely gave me, in my opinion, a stronger game. No reanimating Griselbrand and having to win in the attack step, no dropping dryad arbors, etc.
Now, of course, most of the time in my one draw step, if I drew Spy, I would rather have had Arbor, so there's the dilemma.
Speaking strictly for myself, I was totally fine with the Spy version - since we have an equal chance of scooping to Leyline/RiP, I would rather board the removal package and keep the maindeck combo focused - the varied lines of attack against the various archetypes was what won me the game, in my opinion. But I'd like to hear what Hollywood has to say, since he's put in a ton of work on the archetype.
Spy may be better situationally, than Griselbrand, due to it being able to go off below 7 life.
This is very relevant for me against many decks packing hate post board, like Burn packing extraction for example. Slowing us up just enough can be enough.
The REAL question is not really Grisel VS Spy, it's whether you favour Dryad Arbor in the main, and what to do post board with or without Spy.
And additonal to this, whether you favour having sideboard space for Mindbreak Trap, Unmask or anything else.
Personally, I used to drop a lot of acceleration from a Grisel list to focus on the grind plan with Dread Return still in there.
But a Spy deck is different.
I'm favouring a completely green side full of Arbor, Land, Claim & Reverent, and siding it in for Dread Returns, Flayer, Spy, Annex (maybe), Blightsteel etc. to focus on grinding. Arbor is still relelvant here, with Therapies and Bridges of course.
Most postboard games for me very rarely (if ever) have me resolving dread return due to gravehate or counter, so for me - having a grind plan WITH all the acceleration in the deck seems the way to go with Spy. Having the acceleration in there should help too.
I'm still testing it.... See what you think.:wink:
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
after taking a month break in legacy ...
man i need to read more than 5 pages on this thread lol
it seems like storm/TES/Ant is winning lately in some scg opens.. jund is still there ... Elves is more deadly now with deathrite, Natural order + behemoth....
i might have to try 4 chancellor of the annex in mainboard
i agree to the previous post that running 16 less dredgers is a suicide, on the last big tournament i played i mulled 3 games in a row not getting a single dredger in my opening hand, :frown: dropped! :laugh:
@RThomas
not bad on your recent tournament in scg considering its been 7 years since you last played on a big event
@slave
is spy more consistent vs griselbro?
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rektareloaded
i agree to the previous post that running 16 less dredgers is a suicide, on the last big tournament i played i mulled 3 games in a row not getting a single dredger in my opening hand, :frown: dropped! :laugh:
@slave
is spy more consistent vs griselbro?
Agreed.
Here's the numbers (which are somewhere in the bowels of this thread too)
12 dredgers is an ~81% chance of getting one or more in your first grip.
15 = 88%
16 = 90%
If you're considering more, like say Dakmor Salvage, Greater Mossdog for example;
20 dredgers = 95%
As to Spys' consistency?
We're gonna need a few more people testing in different meta's to really know. Any volunteers? :wink:
I assume by "vs Griselbro", you mean not against other G-man decks, like SnT, Hypergenesis, Tinfins, Reanimator etc., but compared to the manaless-Griselbrand build?
Balustrade Spy seems good enough for my small group, but I'm not repeatedly facing the top tier decks in every match, only occasionally as my group has a few very competitive types who always have top8 decks, many people there for fun (like me) who usually mix up their deck choice on a regular basis, and a few players who like to play homebrews with good cards.
It seems to have the same effect as Grisel against the opponents I've been facing, in that when you resolve a Grisel it's almost a win right there most of the time. Only you have more time (life points) against decks that hit you quickly, like Burn.
This is the biggest difference with Spy.
I'm sure I'm not the only one whose Dr'd up a Grisel and passed the turn because of low life points..... and then lost before the next attack phase.
As long as you include a Blightsteel you have an extra turn to attack with everything (or many more if you have 7 cards and they're not running discard), and have an answer against Painter in the main if you can stay to 7 cards also.
You'll make sure you get all the business out of your deck on your "go silly" turn (Angel of Despair & Flayer singletons, all your therapies etc. etc.) The point of getting all the juice out of the deck is a valid one, as I've lost games in the past after draw/dredging 7 off G-man, only to have that Angel of Despair still in the library with only 5 or 6 cards left. A second Draw7 not being possible!
Spy has a few cool interactions I've noticed too. Like when you're facing someone playing Goblin Charbelcher, who's already played/tutored up their Dryad Arbor & Dual Land via Land Grant. Play Spy on THEM for the mill-win.:tongue:
Bet they've never had dredge do that to them before!
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
here's my current list of dredger: 4 troll, 4 imp, 4 thug, 3 dakmor, 3 SS..
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rektareloaded
here's my current list of dredger: 4 troll, 4 imp, 4 thug, 3 dakmor, 3 SS..
I seriously dont know why do you tell us you are running ~8 other cards in maindeck since the core with 15 dredgers is pretty common.
Its your favoured playstyle but at the moment i dont see an average running the bloodghast package over arbor.
On the other side i dont got much time for testing due to my job but im trying to stay updated.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
@grip: i dont know too ;) ........ @all have anyone tried the deck vs NOelves? i need your thoughts about this.. coz im scared fighting this deck lol
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Just want to comment a situation:
I was running my manaless against omni-tell. He goes snt, omni and me sphinx! Dredge tree, 2 moebas appear with 2 bridges 2 nether shadow and 2 ichorids! He cast emrakul and gets the aditional turn ans attacks! i sac my guys and get 6 tokens and 3 lifes total. My turn double shadow, double ichorid + six 2/2 and that's all!!
what do you think i would hab happen if i drop a Griselbrand¿?
On the other hand: is any body running sickening shoal or contagion to kill shaman in side or i'm alone?
GC.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GoldenCid
I was running my manaless against omni-tell. He goes snt, omni and me sphinx!
what do you think i would hab happen if i drop a Griselbrand¿?
On the other hand: is any body running sickening shoal or contagion to kill shaman in side or i'm alone?
GC.
Sphinx is good, but either Grisel or Spy ( are both better in the right deck, although Grisel is a hreat straight swap) would mean a massive beating coming out.
They attack you after either of these guys hit the field, and your zombie army will be all-conquering (if you survive Omni coming out that is...)
You can bet they'll know attacking you is a baaaaaaad idea if they can't finish you, so they may be going for an alternate win-con in Brainfreeze.
Spy here, with backup from Blightsteel Colossus saves you here until you can get a beating in, but that's assuming a lot.
Contagion & SS are still good. I think a lot of peeps are running Annex right now instead to negate the Lackey, DRS etc. turn 1 plays that's also useful against Ponder/Brainstorm etc.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
I played another dissapointing 2/2.
Lost vs Canadian (the typical "FU! i'm Canadian-Draw")
Won vs BUG with a Tempo.shell
Won vs Esper Blade
Lost vs UW Control with e. Tutor (didnt found a dredger within 16 cards)
Random is random.
G1 vs Canadian was prety awesome. Reanimate Grisel on my Turn 2 with double Therapy-backup.
G2 i loose vs 2 Goyfs (he only plays 2 !!!) followed by a faerie macabre (wtf) and firespout to clean the way (another wtf)
G3 i loose due to Goyf, Lavamancer, Surgical, Delver and Counterbackup
I played Chancellor of the Annex in the main because this time i expected much combo ... and as you see i dodged them perfecly.
All in all im tending to dislike Chancellor since he does most of the time nothing. Of course it slows in the best scenario but at maximum for one turn. I always wished in these situations for a Faerie or Removal. When i wanted removal, it was mostly irrelevant if it would be Shoal or Contagion.
My thoughts so far
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
grip
I played another dissapointing 2/2.
I played Chancellor of the Annex in the main ...... All in all im tending to dislike Chancellor since he does most of the time nothing.
That's fair - I tend to side it out for game2 and 3 unless I'm against Storm/Combo or DRShit.
I had a night out on thursday night.
I went 5 from 5 with Spy.
My list;
4 Troll, 4 Imp, 4 Shell, 4 Thug, 4 Annex, 4 Bridges, 4 D.R., 4 Icky, 4 Phants, 4 Shadow, 3 Probe, 4 Therapy.
3 Spy, 1 Flayer, 1 Worldspine Worm (should be Blightstell Colossus)
Side of;
4 Dryads, 4 Reverents, 4 Claims, 3 Forests. (no fetches)
I chose to run 3 forests, instead of 2 Verdants and a single Forest, just in case the single Forest was dredged into the yard already.
The decks I faced in no order in particular, were Burn, Elves, UB Reanimator, 12post UG Eldrazi & MonoBlue Self-Mill.
Why do I always face bloody burn every single meet!?!?.
The Self Mill deck was via Mesmeric Orb & Basalt Monolith (a deck I have, a little wierd to face off against it!!)
The wierdest part was after my 12post opponent had brought out an Emrakul (hardcast of course) but chose not to attack due to me having a few bridges and quite a few creatures in play that would've given me a gigantic zombie army!!! I comboed out anyway. LOL.
Three of my opponents didn't seem to find any grave-hate whatsoever, so that definitely helped me.
The reanimator player seemed a bit green with the deck, didn't seem to know he could use Entomb during my endstep etc., and brought out Blazing Archon as his first choice in all three games, after he'd managed to ride it to victory in game 1. Sensing he was a noob, I stayed with my main list for g2 & 3.
Flayer got a hard-on and sprayed all sorts of evil devil jizzem all over his shit in game 2 and 3!
Turns out he wasn't running Griselbrand or Jin, so I gave him some pointers without being a dick about it, and tried to help him get to know the deck a little better, as all three games were over fairly quickly.
All in all, I had a very lucky night.
Seeing how I had a pretty easy run, I think it's unfair to judge whether Spy is viable or not, on this night though.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
slave
My current list is;
4 Thug, Troll, Imp, Therapy, Doctor, LED, Probe, Narc, Phants, Bridge, Wraith
3 Spy, Shell, Shadow, Ichorid, Annex
1 Flayer, 1 Worldspine Wurm
I'm still playing around with numbers, still not quite happy with it yet.
My side comprised of Unmask, Mindbreak Trap, an Angel of Despair, Kederekt Leviathan, the remianing Shell, Shadow, Ichorid & Annex.
The reason why I kept all the singles, was so I could revert to the grind plan if LED was getting countered everytime it hit play.
Hey all,
So I'm typically a Belcher player, and I want to get into Dredge. I'm more interested in the Landless version, and since I have a playset of LED's wanted to utilize those as well. After perusing the last several pages, this is the decklist I think I'm most keen on, as I like the Spy.deck. Also, LED is just a discard enabler, correct?
Quick question, how can people be using Blightsteel Colossus as a DR target when the card has a replacement effect that puts it back into the library? That seems like a nom-bo to me, or am I missing something obvious? And since I'm new... why wouldn't Flamekin-Zealot be a finisher anymore? Is it possible a few people post a couple of current decklist, either spy or not spy. I checked the first post and that hasn't been updated, post referring to Hollywood's list are a needle in a haystack kinda thing.
Cheers,
took me way too long to figure out Doctor = Dread Return... tricky...
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ahg113
Hey all,
So I'm typically a Belcher player, and I want to get into Dredge. I'm more interested in the Landless version, and since I have a playset of LED's wanted to utilize those as well. After perusing the last several pages, this is the decklist I think I'm most keen on, as I like the Spy.deck. Also, LED is just a discard enabler, correct?
Quick question, how can people be using
Blightsteel Colossus as a DR target when the card has a replacement effect that puts it back into the library? That seems like a nom-bo to me, or am I missing something obvious? And since I'm new... why wouldn't Flamekin-Zealot be a finisher anymore? Is it possible a few people post a couple of current decklist, either spy or not spy. I checked the first post and that hasn't been updated, post referring to Hollywood's list are a needle in a haystack kinda thing.
Cheers,
took me way too long to figure out Doctor = Dread Return... tricky...
Blightsteel Colossus is used as a niche sideboard option against Painter's Servant decks. The Replacement Effect essentially wins you the game if they don't have something to wipe your graveyard with.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
slave
The Self Mill deck was via Mesmeric Orb & Basalt Monolith (a deck I have, a little wierd to face off against it!!)
That deck is likely not what you or he should play, assuming it's Four Horsemen:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=four+horsemen
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=four+horsemen
